Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am the pp from Va. I am not religious. I was also pointing out mostly , by example, that not all Jews exclusively hang out with Jews. I did not hijack the thread, but rather came forth into a thread that had new questions for the first time in years.

Why do you think you have to point out to someone over and over even calling names such as antisemetic and reporting posts offensive just to get across that "not all........do .......? Any educated person does not wholly assume that all people of a certain group act the same way. But if the pp is saying that even she was rejected for not acting jewish enough even at a temple, you should be able to believe that it's possible for MANY, not all, jews to practice exclusivity towards non jews. This happens especially when people feel they have a comfortable number of jews around them such as at the temple this woman attended or the school or college I attended. Not in VA where there are no majority jewish neighborhoods to speak of. I know there are some enclaves that jews tend to congregate in VA, but those neighborhoods still aren't anywhere close to being a majority jewish.

To the PP who was understanding. I am actually in awe that they do have such a strong adherence to the culture despite not believing in jeudaism. Most Christians who phone it in at their church, don't really associate much with religious people of that denomination, and those that give up a church entirely often seem very much against the community they once belonged to. I was hoping to get a feel for what drove these people to have such loyalty to other jews, but I guess I'll just have to believe that they're doing it in retaliation for Hitler thinking they are all one race since I've been given no other valid explanation.

What?!! OK. You go ahead and think that. I see plenty of Catholics and other Christians acting exclusively. I spend my entire childhood being treated like an outsider because I was Jewish. This is not something unique to Jews to want to hang out with people they have something in common with. I love hanging out with Jews, but I don't exclude people based on their religion. The reason I think these posts complaining about Jews hanging together to the exclusion of others in "clans" is a very good example of hatred of Jews is because this happens every day with other religions. And the fact is, there are a lot more people in the world who are not Jewish, and there are a lot more people excluding Jews than there are Jews excluding non-Jews. So don't come here and say you aren't a Jew hater when you spew nonsense that Jews are "clannish" and that since Einstein said atheism doesn't comport with Judaism that atheists are fake Jews or whatever crap you posters are spewing about Jews. You hate Jews. It doesn't matter what happens. Jews are the scapegoats for every form of bad behavior. This thread is evidence of that. What a bunch of ignorant fools. Don't come to close to me, my Jewish horns might gore you!

Now you're resorting to threats? You'd think if you were such an outsider growing up you might have more sympathy for others who've been discriminated against. Based on your reaction I'm guessing you're making it up. Most people who've experience discrimination are understanding when it happens to other people even if the other people aren't just like them. Such as jews are supposed to be understanding of other people's discrimination having gone through it so much themselves? You've posted twice now about how much of an outsider you were growing up but never gave one example nor have you ever discussed why you love hanging out with jews and what makes that bond so special. Please elaborate as that was my first and only question.

Of course there are more people excluding jews than jews excluding others. There are more people in the world who aren't jewish. That says nothing about the percentage of jews who act this way. This clannish behavior can even be seen in Israel where people live on a kibbutz. It's not made up as you seem to believe and people aren't out to get jews when they talk about it. Silverman seems to get a bye in your world saying atheist jews aren't jews because he's jewish? Is he anti-semetic too? I'd take your issue up with him if you're that worked up over it. He seems to have more power to influence jews beyond a DC internet message board. You're the one who asked me to post the links because you questioned me of lying about the 50-60 percentage. A simple google search would have brought the same answer. There were more links that came up. I knew nothing of Silverman's or Einstein's views towards atheist jews before. No other religion in the world has 60% of people identifying as both a religious group and as an atheist.

The whole rest of your spew is just ridiculous and adds further name calling. You go ahead and think you're the scapegoat for everything, but until jews actually walk the walk of being more open to other friendships like some of the jews who've posted here actually do, people will continue to feel excluded from jewish groups. The whole fact that you never even gave any recognition to how discriminatory that particular college sponsored sorority was just makes me realize that you always see yourself as the victim and never the offender. To the other pp, sororities are not supposed to be discriminatory because of race and a host of other reasons which I've already posted. Those laws have been in effect at least in most colleges for decades. Gender is the only thing they can be discriminatory toward if they provide housing. They have to sign a letter every year stating that they will be open to considering all college students and there is a PanHellenic council that oversees this. I didn't check the dates of OP's post to realize that this forum was old and that I'd never hear back from the OP, but you knew this and instead of just telling me I wouldn't hear back, went on to pretend that you were the OP and spewed further name calling even when you had nothing to add with your responses.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am the pp from Va. I am not religious. I was also pointing out mostly , by example, that not all Jews exclusively hang out with Jews. I did not hijack the thread, but rather came forth into a thread that had new questions for the first time in years.

Why do you think you have to point out to someone over and over even calling names such as antisemetic and reporting posts offensive just to get across that "not all........do .......? Any educated person does not wholly assume that all people of a certain group act the same way. But if the pp is saying that even she was rejected for not acting jewish enough even at a temple, you should be able to believe that it's possible for MANY, not all, jews to practice exclusivity towards non jews. This happens especially when people feel they have a comfortable number of jews around them such as at the temple this woman attended or the school or college I attended. Not in VA where there are no majority jewish neighborhoods to speak of. I know there are some enclaves that jews tend to congregate in VA, but those neighborhoods still aren't anywhere close to being a majority jewish.

To the PP who was understanding. I am actually in awe that they do have such a strong adherence to the culture despite not believing in jeudaism. Most Christians who phone it in at their church, don't really associate much with religious people of that denomination, and those that give up a church entirely often seem very much against the community they once belonged to. I was hoping to get a feel for what drove these people to have such loyalty to other jews, but I guess I'll just have to believe that they're doing it in retaliation for Hitler thinking they are all one race since I've been given no other valid explanation.

What?!! OK. You go ahead and think that. I see plenty of Catholics and other Christians acting exclusively. I spend my entire childhood being treated like an outsider because I was Jewish. This is not something unique to Jews to want to hang out with people they have something in common with. I love hanging out with Jews, but I don't exclude people based on their religion. The reason I think these posts complaining about Jews hanging together to the exclusion of others in "clans" is a very good example of hatred of Jews is because this happens every day with other religions. And the fact is, there are a lot more people in the world who are not Jewish, and there are a lot more people excluding Jews than there are Jews excluding non-Jews. So don't come here and say you aren't a Jew hater when you spew nonsense that Jews are "clannish" and that since Einstein said atheism doesn't comport with Judaism that atheists are fake Jews or whatever crap you posters are spewing about Jews. You hate Jews. It doesn't matter what happens. Jews are the scapegoats for every form of bad behavior. This thread is evidence of that. What a bunch of ignorant fools. Don't come to close to me, my Jewish horns might gore you!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am the pp from Va. I am not religious. I was also pointing out mostly , by example, that not all Jews exclusively hang out with Jews. I did not hijack the thread, but rather came forth into a thread that had new questions for the first time in years.

Why do you think you have to point out to someone over and over even calling names such as antisemetic and reporting posts offensive just to get across that "not all........do .......? Any educated person does not wholly assume that all people of a certain group act the same way. But if the pp is saying that even she was rejected for not acting jewish enough even at a temple, you should be able to believe that it's possible for MANY, not all, jews to practice exclusivity towards non jews. This happens especially when people feel they have a comfortable number of jews around them such as at the temple this woman attended or the school or college I attended. Not in VA where there are no majority jewish neighborhoods to speak of. I know there are some enclaves that jews tend to congregate in VA, but those neighborhoods still aren't anywhere close to being a majority jewish.

To the PP who was understanding. I am actually in awe that they do have such a strong adherence to the culture despite not believing in jeudaism. Most Christians who phone it in at their church, don't really associate much with religious people of that denomination, and those that give up a church entirely often seem very much against the community they once belonged to. I was hoping to get a feel for what drove these people to have such loyalty to other jews, but I guess I'll just have to believe that they're doing it in retaliation for Hitler thinking they are all one race since I've been given no other valid explanation.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You are not even reading what I wrote at this point. I don't judge them more harshly than other groups that are exclusive. This is an AMA forum about being jewish. I just believe a lot of jews are shallowly joining behind their heritage and over the years I've lost respect for their clannish behavior. On the prayers I said that I felt uncomfortable about someone being so open in a public space with their religion but at least I understood them a bit after getting to know them and seeing how fervently they believed in their religion. You say you were mistreated by Christians and Catholics. Do you have any examples? As some examples on my behalf, I grew up where the jewish kids would take some of my more open jewish friends away to tell them secrets, none of which had anything to do with jewish religion or culture. They would talk about which families their parents preferred, which jewish boy they wanted to marry, they would comment how none of the jewish boys were open to me because I wasn't jewish. Up to 3rd grade some of them brought in matzoh, but then that ended and most didn't celebrate any holidays. They said this, not me. Even in their houses such as for passover. I thought perhaps this was just the way the kids were in my town, but then I went off to a highly selective college and during the first year there was a sorority rush. There were two known jewish sororities in addition to many sororities that were about half jewish, one with a reputation of having many jewish American princesses and one with more devout and nicer jews. I had gotten to know some of the nicer jewish people in the 2nd sorority. I went into rush believing I probably would not be picked for either sorority, but thought perhaps I could get to know these nicer jews better and could possibly enjoy being in that sorority. They each had pledge classes of 40 women plus. At the first sorority, I was immediately asked my name, where I lived, and my major. The person made a face at me and then took me around to about ten other people introducing me with just that information over and over in a derogatory way. No one asked me any other questions and eventually the person I was with moved on to talk to someone else leaving me alone. At the nicer sorority I was in a group of 3 sisters and 3 pledges and the 3 sisters asked the other two jewish pledges questions and basically ignored me although they were nice and offered me food. I don't think in these cases, I was being the antisemetic one. They were being antichristian. The saddest part was that they had the power to reject me anyway, but used their 15 minutes to make me feel uncomfortable instead of at least trying to be friendly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moSFlvxnbgk


You will probably never undestand ethnic Judaism, and I don't think those of us here answering questions in a religious forum can really speak for ethnic Jews who are atheists anyway. But your level of obsession is odd. Indeed, if you had such negative experiences with "clannishness" why did you rush a mostly Jewish sorority (by the way my dad belonged to a Jewish frat, but that was back when most non-Jewish frats excluded Jews, and he was not an atheist, though not particularly pious either)

I also am a bit offended that your only question after reading the discrimination I endured was why I bothered to rush a mostly Jewish sorority. In case you aren't up on organizations allowed on campuses, below is a typical policy of any organization that claims to be affiliated with a college as they should be.

No campus shall recognize any fraternity, sorority, living group, honor society, or other student organization that discriminates on the basis of race, religion, national origin, ethnicity, color, age, gender, marital status, citizenship, sexual orientation, or disability. The prohibition on membership policies that discriminate on the basis of gender does not apply to social fraternities or sororities, or to other university living groups. Student organizations shall deliver to the vice president for student affairs or his/her designee a statement signed by the president or similar officer of the local student organization attesting that the organization has no rules or policies that discriminate on the basis of race, religion, national origin, ethnicity, color, age, sex, marital status, citizenship, sexual orientation, or disability. This statement shall be renewed annually.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am the pp from Va. I am not religious. I was also pointing out mostly , by example, that not all Jews exclusively hang out with Jews. I did not hijack the thread, but rather came forth into a thread that had new questions for the first time in years.

Why do you think you have to point out to someone over and over even calling names such as antisemetic and reporting posts offensive just to get across that "not all........do .......? Any educated person does not wholly assume that all people of a certain group act the same way. But if the pp is saying that even she was rejected for not acting jewish enough even at a temple, you should be able to believe that it's possible for MANY, not all, jews to practice exclusivity towards non jews. This happens especially when people feel they have a comfortable number of jews around them such as at the temple this woman attended or the school or college I attended. Not in VA where there are no majority jewish neighborhoods to speak of. I know there are some enclaves that jews tend to congregate in VA, but those neighborhoods still aren't anywhere close to being a majority jewish.

To the PP who was understanding. I am actually in awe that they do have such a strong adherence to the culture despite not believing in jeudaism. Most Christians who phone it in at their church, don't really associate much with religious people of that denomination, and those that give up a church entirely often seem very much against the community they once belonged to. I was hoping to get a feel for what drove these people to have such loyalty to other jews, but I guess I'll just have to believe that they're doing it in retaliation for Hitler thinking they are all one race since I've been given no other valid explanation.

Anonymous wrote:I am the pp from Va. I am not religious. I was also pointing out mostly , by example, that not all Jews exclusively hang out with Jews. I did not hijack the thread, but rather came forth into a thread that had new questions for the first time in years.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You are not even reading what I wrote at this point. I don't judge them more harshly than other groups that are exclusive. This is an AMA forum about being jewish. I just believe a lot of jews are shallowly joining behind their heritage and over the years I've lost respect for their clannish behavior. On the prayers I said that I felt uncomfortable about someone being so open in a public space with their religion but at least I understood them a bit after getting to know them and seeing how fervently they believed in their religion. You say you were mistreated by Christians and Catholics. Do you have any examples? As some examples on my behalf, I grew up where the jewish kids would take some of my more open jewish friends away to tell them secrets, none of which had anything to do with jewish religion or culture. They would talk about which families their parents preferred, which jewish boy they wanted to marry, they would comment how none of the jewish boys were open to me because I wasn't jewish. Up to 3rd grade some of them brought in matzoh, but then that ended and most didn't celebrate any holidays. They said this, not me. Even in their houses such as for passover. I thought perhaps this was just the way the kids were in my town, but then I went off to a highly selective college and during the first year there was a sorority rush. There were two known jewish sororities in addition to many sororities that were about half jewish, one with a reputation of having many jewish American princesses and one with more devout and nicer jews. I had gotten to know some of the nicer jewish people in the 2nd sorority. I went into rush believing I probably would not be picked for either sorority, but thought perhaps I could get to know these nicer jews better and could possibly enjoy being in that sorority. They each had pledge classes of 40 women plus. At the first sorority, I was immediately asked my name, where I lived, and my major. The person made a face at me and then took me around to about ten other people introducing me with just that information over and over in a derogatory way. No one asked me any other questions and eventually the person I was with moved on to talk to someone else leaving me alone. At the nicer sorority I was in a group of 3 sisters and 3 pledges and the 3 sisters asked the other two jewish pledges questions and basically ignored me although they were nice and offered me food. I don't think in these cases, I was being the antisemetic one. They were being antichristian. The saddest part was that they had the power to reject me anyway, but used their 15 minutes to make me feel uncomfortable instead of at least trying to be friendly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moSFlvxnbgk


You will probably never undestand ethnic Judaism, and I don't think those of us here answering questions in a religious forum can really speak for ethnic Jews who are atheists anyway. But your level of obsession is odd. Indeed, if you had such negative experiences with "clannishness" why did you rush a mostly Jewish sorority (by the way my dad belonged to a Jewish frat, but that was back when most non-Jewish frats excluded Jews, and he was not an atheist, though not particularly pious either)

You are right I don't understand ethnic Judaism which is why I posed the question. I have tried all my life even taking jewish classes in school however and still have many jewish friends. I just think they're a bit shallow in this regard. The OP said she wasn't religious, so I don't know why I was being so out of line. No one has given me any reason for understanding ethnic jews who aren't religious which was my only question to begin with.

I think people have tried to give you lots of ideas and information, but have met with an argumentative, accusatory, hostile, and aggrieved tone. That is not conducive to learning. Nor to getting along with people, whether "clannish" or not.

They have not given any specifics on why this bond is so important. They have accused me of being anti-semetic and saying I don't understand their culture but then don't offer any clarification. If for instance an atheist jew decides to have their children attend jewish preschool and jewish summer camp despite not believing in god or observing religious holidays, the parent hangs out with only jewish friends, and they teach their children to be friends with only jews, what is it all for? What is the bond they have besides religion in a past cultural way that deserves my respect? Certain food dishes they might still make? How do these types of bonds require exclusion of everyone else?

They don't. So there are several options: (1) the people you are trying to hang out with are jerks, which has nothing to do with their religion; (2) they are not really trying to exclude people to this extent, you just interpret it that way because you have a weird obsession and/or persecution complex; or (3) they just don't like you.

Honestly, I am going with door #3 after reading all of PPs posts.

NP.

I don't think that any of us can be the "representatives of our culture" here, as you seem to want us to be. But after reading the responses you're getting, and so many people telling you that this isn't their experiences as Jewish people, shows that this might have been your personal experiences, and not how Jews treat non-Jews across the board. I have certainly met Jews who have left others out of their social groups, but it wasn't for religious reasons. They were mostly friends since childhood who had problems letting others in. It was socially awkward, yes, but not because they were Jewish; I was one of the people they were leaving out, and this was in our shared Sunday School!

In my (Reform Jewish) experience, the most exclusionary Jews are from Orthodox sects, who looked upon my family as non-Jews because we drove on Shabbat. The majority of my Jewish friends are either Conservative or Reform, and--believe it or not--the majority of my friends in general aren't Jewish at all. Atheist and agnostic Jews may send their children to Sunday School to learn about our shared cultural history, similar to my Irish friends who send their kids to Irish step dance classes. There are even secular-humanistic congregations, where people learn about the foundations of the culture and the history behind holidays. I used to teach at one such Hebrew School, and it was fascinating! But atheist and agnostic Jews by and large aren't going to send their children to Jewish schools or camps where religion is a big part of the day.

In general, people may choose to group with people of a similar background, whether cultural, ethnic, religious, or something else. This isn't specific to Jewish people. But again, in my experience, the more atheist or agnostic a Jewish person is, the more open they are to the cultural/ethnic/etc experiences of others, and want to expose their children to the same. I know in my circle of friends, religion and ethnic background don't really matter at all.

Thank you for a nicer tone. I believe most of the responses I got were from one person who lived in VA and was religious, so I did not think I was getting responses from multiple people and honestly wanted to hear from OP who said she was basically a secular humanist born to a jewish family. Unfortunately even if I got responses about jewish openness to other cultures from four different people, it doesn't really make up for the 500 plus "reform jewish" people I encountered in my life who were exclusive and yet wouldn't even know basic stuff like whether a certain day was a jewish holiday or not. I'm glad to hear there are more people of jewish origin who are open to being friends with other ethnicities. I think I was just disheartened to read some of the recent posts on this website where jewish parents were basically blatantly saying it was ok for them to be exclusive to non-jews because of their similar culture or whatever. With a new generation I was hopeful that people would be more open and welcoming.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You are not even reading what I wrote at this point. I don't judge them more harshly than other groups that are exclusive. This is an AMA forum about being jewish. I just believe a lot of jews are shallowly joining behind their heritage and over the years I've lost respect for their clannish behavior. On the prayers I said that I felt uncomfortable about someone being so open in a public space with their religion but at least I understood them a bit after getting to know them and seeing how fervently they believed in their religion. You say you were mistreated by Christians and Catholics. Do you have any examples? As some examples on my behalf, I grew up where the jewish kids would take some of my more open jewish friends away to tell them secrets, none of which had anything to do with jewish religion or culture. They would talk about which families their parents preferred, which jewish boy they wanted to marry, they would comment how none of the jewish boys were open to me because I wasn't jewish. Up to 3rd grade some of them brought in matzoh, but then that ended and most didn't celebrate any holidays. They said this, not me. Even in their houses such as for passover. I thought perhaps this was just the way the kids were in my town, but then I went off to a highly selective college and during the first year there was a sorority rush. There were two known jewish sororities in addition to many sororities that were about half jewish, one with a reputation of having many jewish American princesses and one with more devout and nicer jews. I had gotten to know some of the nicer jewish people in the 2nd sorority. I went into rush believing I probably would not be picked for either sorority, but thought perhaps I could get to know these nicer jews better and could possibly enjoy being in that sorority. They each had pledge classes of 40 women plus. At the first sorority, I was immediately asked my name, where I lived, and my major. The person made a face at me and then took me around to about ten other people introducing me with just that information over and over in a derogatory way. No one asked me any other questions and eventually the person I was with moved on to talk to someone else leaving me alone. At the nicer sorority I was in a group of 3 sisters and 3 pledges and the 3 sisters asked the other two jewish pledges questions and basically ignored me although they were nice and offered me food. I don't think in these cases, I was being the antisemetic one. They were being antichristian. The saddest part was that they had the power to reject me anyway, but used their 15 minutes to make me feel uncomfortable instead of at least trying to be friendly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moSFlvxnbgk


You will probably never undestand ethnic Judaism, and I don't think those of us here answering questions in a religious forum can really speak for ethnic Jews who are atheists anyway. But your level of obsession is odd. Indeed, if you had such negative experiences with "clannishness" why did you rush a mostly Jewish sorority (by the way my dad belonged to a Jewish frat, but that was back when most non-Jewish frats excluded Jews, and he was not an atheist, though not particularly pious either)

You are right I don't understand ethnic Judaism which is why I posed the question. I have tried all my life even taking jewish classes in school however and still have many jewish friends. I just think they're a bit shallow in this regard. The OP said she wasn't religious, so I don't know why I was being so out of line. No one has given me any reason for understanding ethnic jews who aren't religious which was my only question to begin with.

I think people have tried to give you lots of ideas and information, but have met with an argumentative, accusatory, hostile, and aggrieved tone. That is not conducive to learning. Nor to getting along with people, whether "clannish" or not.

They have not given any specifics on why this bond is so important. They have accused me of being anti-semetic and saying I don't understand their culture but then don't offer any clarification. If for instance an atheist jew decides to have their children attend jewish preschool and jewish summer camp despite not believing in god or observing religious holidays, the parent hangs out with only jewish friends, and they teach their children to be friends with only jews, what is it all for? What is the bond they have besides religion in a past cultural way that deserves my respect? Certain food dishes they might still make? How do these types of bonds require exclusion of everyone else?

They don't. So there are several options: (1) the people you are trying to hang out with are jerks, which has nothing to do with their religion; (2) they are not really trying to exclude people to this extent, you just interpret it that way because you have a weird obsession and/or persecution complex; or (3) they just don't like you.

Honestly, I am going with door #3 after reading all of PPs posts.

NP.

I don't think that any of us can be the "representatives of our culture" here, as you seem to want us to be. But after reading the responses you're getting, and so many people telling you that this isn't their experiences as Jewish people, shows that this might have been your personal experiences, and not how Jews treat non-Jews across the board. I have certainly met Jews who have left others out of their social groups, but it wasn't for religious reasons. They were mostly friends since childhood who had problems letting others in. It was socially awkward, yes, but not because they were Jewish; I was one of the people they were leaving out, and this was in our shared Sunday School!

In my (Reform Jewish) experience, the most exclusionary Jews are from Orthodox sects, who looked upon my family as non-Jews because we drove on Shabbat. The majority of my Jewish friends are either Conservative or Reform, and--believe it or not--the majority of my friends in general aren't Jewish at all. Atheist and agnostic Jews may send their children to Sunday School to learn about our shared cultural history, similar to my Irish friends who send their kids to Irish step dance classes. There are even secular-humanistic congregations, where people learn about the foundations of the culture and the history behind holidays. I used to teach at one such Hebrew School, and it was fascinating! But atheist and agnostic Jews by and large aren't going to send their children to Jewish schools or camps where religion is a big part of the day.

In general, people may choose to group with people of a similar background, whether cultural, ethnic, religious, or something else. This isn't specific to Jewish people. But again, in my experience, the more atheist or agnostic a Jewish person is, the more open they are to the cultural/ethnic/etc experiences of others, and want to expose their children to the same. I know in my circle of friends, religion and ethnic background don't really matter at all.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You are not even reading what I wrote at this point. I don't judge them more harshly than other groups that are exclusive. This is an AMA forum about being jewish. I just believe a lot of jews are shallowly joining behind their heritage and over the years I've lost respect for their clannish behavior. On the prayers I said that I felt uncomfortable about someone being so open in a public space with their religion but at least I understood them a bit after getting to know them and seeing how fervently they believed in their religion. You say you were mistreated by Christians and Catholics. Do you have any examples? As some examples on my behalf, I grew up where the jewish kids would take some of my more open jewish friends away to tell them secrets, none of which had anything to do with jewish religion or culture. They would talk about which families their parents preferred, which jewish boy they wanted to marry, they would comment how none of the jewish boys were open to me because I wasn't jewish. Up to 3rd grade some of them brought in matzoh, but then that ended and most didn't celebrate any holidays. They said this, not me. Even in their houses such as for passover. I thought perhaps this was just the way the kids were in my town, but then I went off to a highly selective college and during the first year there was a sorority rush. There were two known jewish sororities in addition to many sororities that were about half jewish, one with a reputation of having many jewish American princesses and one with more devout and nicer jews. I had gotten to know some of the nicer jewish people in the 2nd sorority. I went into rush believing I probably would not be picked for either sorority, but thought perhaps I could get to know these nicer jews better and could possibly enjoy being in that sorority. They each had pledge classes of 40 women plus. At the first sorority, I was immediately asked my name, where I lived, and my major. The person made a face at me and then took me around to about ten other people introducing me with just that information over and over in a derogatory way. No one asked me any other questions and eventually the person I was with moved on to talk to someone else leaving me alone. At the nicer sorority I was in a group of 3 sisters and 3 pledges and the 3 sisters asked the other two jewish pledges questions and basically ignored me although they were nice and offered me food. I don't think in these cases, I was being the antisemetic one. They were being antichristian. The saddest part was that they had the power to reject me anyway, but used their 15 minutes to make me feel uncomfortable instead of at least trying to be friendly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moSFlvxnbgk


You will probably never undestand ethnic Judaism, and I don't think those of us here answering questions in a religious forum can really speak for ethnic Jews who are atheists anyway. But your level of obsession is odd. Indeed, if you had such negative experiences with "clannishness" why did you rush a mostly Jewish sorority (by the way my dad belonged to a Jewish frat, but that was back when most non-Jewish frats excluded Jews, and he was not an atheist, though not particularly pious either)

You are right I don't understand ethnic Judaism which is why I posed the question. I have tried all my life even taking jewish classes in school however and still have many jewish friends. I just think they're a bit shallow in this regard. The OP said she wasn't religious, so I don't know why I was being so out of line. No one has given me any reason for understanding ethnic jews who aren't religious which was my only question to begin with.

I think people have tried to give you lots of ideas and information, but have met with an argumentative, accusatory, hostile, and aggrieved tone. That is not conducive to learning. Nor to getting along with people, whether "clannish" or not.

They have not given any specifics on why this bond is so important. They have accused me of being anti-semetic and saying I don't understand their culture but then don't offer any clarification. If for instance an atheist jew decides to have their children attend jewish preschool and jewish summer camp despite not believing in god or observing religious holidays, the parent hangs out with only jewish friends, and they teach their children to be friends with only jews, what is it all for? What is the bond they have besides religion in a past cultural way that deserves my respect? Certain food dishes they might still make? How do these types of bonds require exclusion of everyone else?

They don't. So there are several options: (1) the people you are trying to hang out with are jerks, which has nothing to do with their religion; (2) they are not really trying to exclude people to this extent, you just interpret it that way because you have a weird obsession and/or persecution complex; or (3) they just don't like you.

Honestly, I am going with door #3 after reading all of PPs posts.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You are not even reading what I wrote at this point. I don't judge them more harshly than other groups that are exclusive. This is an AMA forum about being jewish. I just believe a lot of jews are shallowly joining behind their heritage and over the years I've lost respect for their clannish behavior. On the prayers I said that I felt uncomfortable about someone being so open in a public space with their religion but at least I understood them a bit after getting to know them and seeing how fervently they believed in their religion. You say you were mistreated by Christians and Catholics. Do you have any examples? As some examples on my behalf, I grew up where the jewish kids would take some of my more open jewish friends away to tell them secrets, none of which had anything to do with jewish religion or culture. They would talk about which families their parents preferred, which jewish boy they wanted to marry, they would comment how none of the jewish boys were open to me because I wasn't jewish. Up to 3rd grade some of them brought in matzoh, but then that ended and most didn't celebrate any holidays. They said this, not me. Even in their houses such as for passover. I thought perhaps this was just the way the kids were in my town, but then I went off to a highly selective college and during the first year there was a sorority rush. There were two known jewish sororities in addition to many sororities that were about half jewish, one with a reputation of having many jewish American princesses and one with more devout and nicer jews. I had gotten to know some of the nicer jewish people in the 2nd sorority. I went into rush believing I probably would not be picked for either sorority, but thought perhaps I could get to know these nicer jews better and could possibly enjoy being in that sorority. They each had pledge classes of 40 women plus. At the first sorority, I was immediately asked my name, where I lived, and my major. The person made a face at me and then took me around to about ten other people introducing me with just that information over and over in a derogatory way. No one asked me any other questions and eventually the person I was with moved on to talk to someone else leaving me alone. At the nicer sorority I was in a group of 3 sisters and 3 pledges and the 3 sisters asked the other two jewish pledges questions and basically ignored me although they were nice and offered me food. I don't think in these cases, I was being the antisemetic one. They were being antichristian. The saddest part was that they had the power to reject me anyway, but used their 15 minutes to make me feel uncomfortable instead of at least trying to be friendly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moSFlvxnbgk


You will probably never undestand ethnic Judaism, and I don't think those of us here answering questions in a religious forum can really speak for ethnic Jews who are atheists anyway. But your level of obsession is odd. Indeed, if you had such negative experiences with "clannishness" why did you rush a mostly Jewish sorority (by the way my dad belonged to a Jewish frat, but that was back when most non-Jewish frats excluded Jews, and he was not an atheist, though not particularly pious either)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You are not even reading what I wrote at this point. I don't judge them more harshly than other groups that are exclusive. This is an AMA forum about being jewish. I just believe a lot of jews are shallowly joining behind their heritage and over the years I've lost respect for their clannish behavior. On the prayers I said that I felt uncomfortable about someone being so open in a public space with their religion but at least I understood them a bit after getting to know them and seeing how fervently they believed in their religion. You say you were mistreated by Christians and Catholics. Do you have any examples? As some examples on my behalf, I grew up where the jewish kids would take some of my more open jewish friends away to tell them secrets, none of which had anything to do with jewish religion or culture. They would talk about which families their parents preferred, which jewish boy they wanted to marry, they would comment how none of the jewish boys were open to me because I wasn't jewish. Up to 3rd grade some of them brought in matzoh, but then that ended and most didn't celebrate any holidays. They said this, not me. Even in their houses such as for passover. I thought perhaps this was just the way the kids were in my town, but then I went off to a highly selective college and during the first year there was a sorority rush. There were two known jewish sororities in addition to many sororities that were about half jewish, one with a reputation of having many jewish American princesses and one with more devout and nicer jews. I had gotten to know some of the nicer jewish people in the 2nd sorority. I went into rush believing I probably would not be picked for either sorority, but thought perhaps I could get to know these nicer jews better and could possibly enjoy being in that sorority. They each had pledge classes of 40 women plus. At the first sorority, I was immediately asked my name, where I lived, and my major. The person made a face at me and then took me around to about ten other people introducing me with just that information over and over in a derogatory way. No one asked me any other questions and eventually the person I was with moved on to talk to someone else leaving me alone. At the nicer sorority I was in a group of 3 sisters and 3 pledges and the 3 sisters asked the other two jewish pledges questions and basically ignored me although they were nice and offered me food. I don't think in these cases, I was being the antisemetic one. They were being antichristian. The saddest part was that they had the power to reject me anyway, but used their 15 minutes to make me feel uncomfortable instead of at least trying to be friendly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moSFlvxnbgk


You will probably never undestand ethnic Judaism, and I don't think those of us here answering questions in a religious forum can really speak for ethnic Jews who are atheists anyway. But your level of obsession is odd. Indeed, if you had such negative experiences with "clannishness" why did you rush a mostly Jewish sorority (by the way my dad belonged to a Jewish frat, but that was back when most non-Jewish frats excluded Jews, and he was not an atheist, though not particularly pious either)

You are right I don't understand ethnic Judaism which is why I posed the question. I have tried all my life even taking jewish classes in school however and still have many jewish friends. I just think they're a bit shallow in this regard. The OP said she wasn't religious, so I don't know why I was being so out of line. No one has given me any reason for understanding ethnic jews who aren't religious which was my only question to begin with.

I think people have tried to give you lots of ideas and information, but have met with an argumentative, accusatory, hostile, and aggrieved tone. That is not conducive to learning. Nor to getting along with people, whether "clannish" or not.

They have not given any specifics on why this bond is so important. They have accused me of being anti-semetic and saying I don't understand their culture but then don't offer any clarification. If for instance an atheist jew decides to have their children attend jewish preschool and jewish summer camp despite not believing in god or observing religious holidays, the parent hangs out with only jewish friends, and they teach their children to be friends with only jews, what is it all for? What is the bond they have besides religion in a past cultural way that deserves my respect? Certain food dishes they might still make? How do these types of bonds require exclusion of everyone else?

They don't. So there are several options: (1) the people you are trying to hang out with are jerks, which has nothing to do with their religion; (2) they are not really trying to exclude people to this extent, you just interpret it that way because you have a weird obsession and/or persecution complex; or (3) they just don't like you.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You are not even reading what I wrote at this point. I don't judge them more harshly than other groups that are exclusive. This is an AMA forum about being jewish. I just believe a lot of jews are shallowly joining behind their heritage and over the years I've lost respect for their clannish behavior. On the prayers I said that I felt uncomfortable about someone being so open in a public space with their religion but at least I understood them a bit after getting to know them and seeing how fervently they believed in their religion. You say you were mistreated by Christians and Catholics. Do you have any examples? As some examples on my behalf, I grew up where the jewish kids would take some of my more open jewish friends away to tell them secrets, none of which had anything to do with jewish religion or culture. They would talk about which families their parents preferred, which jewish boy they wanted to marry, they would comment how none of the jewish boys were open to me because I wasn't jewish. Up to 3rd grade some of them brought in matzoh, but then that ended and most didn't celebrate any holidays. They said this, not me. Even in their houses such as for passover. I thought perhaps this was just the way the kids were in my town, but then I went off to a highly selective college and during the first year there was a sorority rush. There were two known jewish sororities in addition to many sororities that were about half jewish, one with a reputation of having many jewish American princesses and one with more devout and nicer jews. I had gotten to know some of the nicer jewish people in the 2nd sorority. I went into rush believing I probably would not be picked for either sorority, but thought perhaps I could get to know these nicer jews better and could possibly enjoy being in that sorority. They each had pledge classes of 40 women plus. At the first sorority, I was immediately asked my name, where I lived, and my major. The person made a face at me and then took me around to about ten other people introducing me with just that information over and over in a derogatory way. No one asked me any other questions and eventually the person I was with moved on to talk to someone else leaving me alone. At the nicer sorority I was in a group of 3 sisters and 3 pledges and the 3 sisters asked the other two jewish pledges questions and basically ignored me although they were nice and offered me food. I don't think in these cases, I was being the antisemetic one. They were being antichristian. The saddest part was that they had the power to reject me anyway, but used their 15 minutes to make me feel uncomfortable instead of at least trying to be friendly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moSFlvxnbgk


You will probably never undestand ethnic Judaism, and I don't think those of us here answering questions in a religious forum can really speak for ethnic Jews who are atheists anyway. But your level of obsession is odd. Indeed, if you had such negative experiences with "clannishness" why did you rush a mostly Jewish sorority (by the way my dad belonged to a Jewish frat, but that was back when most non-Jewish frats excluded Jews, and he was not an atheist, though not particularly pious either)

You are right I don't understand ethnic Judaism which is why I posed the question. I have tried all my life even taking jewish classes in school however and still have many jewish friends. I just think they're a bit shallow in this regard. The OP said she wasn't religious, so I don't know why I was being so out of line. No one has given me any reason for understanding ethnic jews who aren't religious which was my only question to begin with.

I think people have tried to give you lots of ideas and information, but have met with an argumentative, accusatory, hostile, and aggrieved tone. That is not conducive to learning. Nor to getting along with people, whether "clannish" or not.

They have not given any specifics on why this bond is so important. They have accused me of being anti-semetic and saying I don't understand their culture but then don't offer any clarification. If for instance an atheist jew decides to have their children attend jewish preschool and jewish summer camp despite not believing in god or observing religious holidays, the parent hangs out with only jewish friends, and they teach their children to be friends with only jews, what is it all for? What is the bond they have besides religion in a past cultural way that deserves my respect? Certain food dishes they might still make? How do these types of bonds require exclusion of everyone else?

They don't. So there are several options: (1) the people you are trying to hang out with are jerks, which has nothing to do with their religion; (2) they are not really trying to exclude people to this extent, you just interpret it that way because you have a weird obsession and/or persecution complex; or (3) they just don't like you.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You are not even reading what I wrote at this point. I don't judge them more harshly than other groups that are exclusive. This is an AMA forum about being jewish. I just believe a lot of jews are shallowly joining behind their heritage and over the years I've lost respect for their clannish behavior. On the prayers I said that I felt uncomfortable about someone being so open in a public space with their religion but at least I understood them a bit after getting to know them and seeing how fervently they believed in their religion. You say you were mistreated by Christians and Catholics. Do you have any examples? As some examples on my behalf, I grew up where the jewish kids would take some of my more open jewish friends away to tell them secrets, none of which had anything to do with jewish religion or culture. They would talk about which families their parents preferred, which jewish boy they wanted to marry, they would comment how none of the jewish boys were open to me because I wasn't jewish. Up to 3rd grade some of them brought in matzoh, but then that ended and most didn't celebrate any holidays. They said this, not me. Even in their houses such as for passover. I thought perhaps this was just the way the kids were in my town, but then I went off to a highly selective college and during the first year there was a sorority rush. There were two known jewish sororities in addition to many sororities that were about half jewish, one with a reputation of having many jewish American princesses and one with more devout and nicer jews. I had gotten to know some of the nicer jewish people in the 2nd sorority. I went into rush believing I probably would not be picked for either sorority, but thought perhaps I could get to know these nicer jews better and could possibly enjoy being in that sorority. They each had pledge classes of 40 women plus. At the first sorority, I was immediately asked my name, where I lived, and my major. The person made a face at me and then took me around to about ten other people introducing me with just that information over and over in a derogatory way. No one asked me any other questions and eventually the person I was with moved on to talk to someone else leaving me alone. At the nicer sorority I was in a group of 3 sisters and 3 pledges and the 3 sisters asked the other two jewish pledges questions and basically ignored me although they were nice and offered me food. I don't think in these cases, I was being the antisemetic one. They were being antichristian. The saddest part was that they had the power to reject me anyway, but used their 15 minutes to make me feel uncomfortable instead of at least trying to be friendly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moSFlvxnbgk


You will probably never undestand ethnic Judaism, and I don't think those of us here answering questions in a religious forum can really speak for ethnic Jews who are atheists anyway. But your level of obsession is odd. Indeed, if you had such negative experiences with "clannishness" why did you rush a mostly Jewish sorority (by the way my dad belonged to a Jewish frat, but that was back when most non-Jewish frats excluded Jews, and he was not an atheist, though not particularly pious either)

You are right I don't understand ethnic Judaism which is why I posed the question. I have tried all my life even taking jewish classes in school however and still have many jewish friends. I just think they're a bit shallow in this regard. The OP said she wasn't religious, so I don't know why I was being so out of line. No one has given me any reason for understanding ethnic jews who aren't religious which was my only question to begin with.

I think people have tried to give you lots of ideas and information, but have met with an argumentative, accusatory, hostile, and aggrieved tone. That is not conducive to learning. Nor to getting along with people, whether "clannish" or not.

They have not given any specifics on why this bond is so important. They have accused me of being anti-semetic and saying I don't understand their culture but then don't offer any clarification. If for instance an atheist jew decides to have their children attend jewish preschool and jewish summer camp despite not believing in god or observing religious holidays, the parent hangs out with only jewish friends, and they teach their children to be friends with only jews, what is it all for? What is the bond they have besides religion in a past cultural way that deserves my respect? Certain food dishes they might still make? How do these types of bonds require exclusion of everyone else?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You are not even reading what I wrote at this point. I don't judge them more harshly than other groups that are exclusive. This is an AMA forum about being jewish. I just believe a lot of jews are shallowly joining behind their heritage and over the years I've lost respect for their clannish behavior. On the prayers I said that I felt uncomfortable about someone being so open in a public space with their religion but at least I understood them a bit after getting to know them and seeing how fervently they believed in their religion. You say you were mistreated by Christians and Catholics. Do you have any examples? As some examples on my behalf, I grew up where the jewish kids would take some of my more open jewish friends away to tell them secrets, none of which had anything to do with jewish religion or culture. They would talk about which families their parents preferred, which jewish boy they wanted to marry, they would comment how none of the jewish boys were open to me because I wasn't jewish. Up to 3rd grade some of them brought in matzoh, but then that ended and most didn't celebrate any holidays. They said this, not me. Even in their houses such as for passover. I thought perhaps this was just the way the kids were in my town, but then I went off to a highly selective college and during the first year there was a sorority rush. There were two known jewish sororities in addition to many sororities that were about half jewish, one with a reputation of having many jewish American princesses and one with more devout and nicer jews. I had gotten to know some of the nicer jewish people in the 2nd sorority. I went into rush believing I probably would not be picked for either sorority, but thought perhaps I could get to know these nicer jews better and could possibly enjoy being in that sorority. They each had pledge classes of 40 women plus. At the first sorority, I was immediately asked my name, where I lived, and my major. The person made a face at me and then took me around to about ten other people introducing me with just that information over and over in a derogatory way. No one asked me any other questions and eventually the person I was with moved on to talk to someone else leaving me alone. At the nicer sorority I was in a group of 3 sisters and 3 pledges and the 3 sisters asked the other two jewish pledges questions and basically ignored me although they were nice and offered me food. I don't think in these cases, I was being the antisemetic one. They were being antichristian. The saddest part was that they had the power to reject me anyway, but used their 15 minutes to make me feel uncomfortable instead of at least trying to be friendly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moSFlvxnbgk


You will probably never undestand ethnic Judaism, and I don't think those of us here answering questions in a religious forum can really speak for ethnic Jews who are atheists anyway. But your level of obsession is odd. Indeed, if you had such negative experiences with "clannishness" why did you rush a mostly Jewish sorority (by the way my dad belonged to a Jewish frat, but that was back when most non-Jewish frats excluded Jews, and he was not an atheist, though not particularly pious either)

You are right I don't understand ethnic Judaism which is why I posed the question. I have tried all my life even taking jewish classes in school however and still have many jewish friends. I just think they're a bit shallow in this regard. The OP said she wasn't religious, so I don't know why I was being so out of line. No one has given me any reason for understanding ethnic jews who aren't religious which was my only question to begin with.

I think people have tried to give you lots of ideas and information, but have met with an argumentative, accusatory, hostile, and aggrieved tone. That is not conducive to learning. Nor to getting along with people, whether "clannish" or not.