Anonymous
Post 07/19/2023 10:23     Subject: Families that never volunteer - swim team
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:The number of officials and timers required for summer swim meets seems overly excessive for a rec league. Even for USA swimming, dual meets only require 3-4 officials and 2 timers per lane. Regular timed final meets only require 4 officials. Are summer swim meet times official as per USA swimming? If not, I would advise to drop the dog pony show of 3 watches per lane and so many stroke and turn officials. Those stopwatch times, whether one or three, are not very accurate anyway. They are almost always faster than the real time.


Do you really not understand that the two timers are backups for the touchpad in higher-level swim?


I do, actually, because I am a usa swimming official. My point is that summer swim meets are not USA swimming meets, so they don’t follow the same rules. The officials do not need to be USA swimming officials, the pools don’t have to be standard size, the age rules are not followed, etc etc. So why do you have to follow their timing rules?

In USA swimming meets, you need 3 watches if there are no primary or secondary automated or semi automated timing systems. Why can’t summer swim only have one timer? Accuracy isn’t a great answer because as I said before, watch times are not even very accurate. And having three timers just ensures that people will get complacent and make mistakes. The officials also note order of finish to confirm or question watch times.

Arguing that you need 3 timers because it’s tedious to average 2 watch times is a weak argument. Anyway, meet manager will do the calculation, so it’s more a matter of data entry. Meet manager takes one backup time, averages two backup times, or takes the median of 3 backup times when there is no primary time. It’s easier to take one watch time than to inspect 3 watch times for the median, but that not the reason to go to one timer. It’s to alleviate the volunteer burden, which is obviously an issue because so so so many people complain about it.

FYI, minimum number officials for usa swim meets


https://www.usaswimming.org/docs/default-source/officialsdocuments/misc-officials/meet-considerations-clarification.pdf




Summer swim is a team sport. Teams are competing against each other to win. After every race, the times are posted on timing boards so people can see who got 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Kids freak out at close races. It’s fun. By averaging the times in software you are removing that whole element in swimming and making it much more like the boring club meets all the rest of the year. No thanks. If this is how you feel, stick with club swim and skip the fun summer swim.

It’s not fair to the athletes in summer swim to act like their times don’t matter. They do. The kids care.


I mean you can still just use the time from a single stopwatch. It won’t change the fun of summer swim or posting times on the board. This is recreational swim, just like little league has teen umpires, using 1 watch per lane for summer swim would not be some kind of catastrophe.



The number of times where someone clearly touches the wall first but loses due to differences in timers will go up a ton and frustrate a hundred kids each time. No thanks. I’d rather volunteer to be a timer/judge or whatever is needed. If this is what you want to do, quit your summer swim team, gather some likeminded kids and have them do races at the pool while you time them.
Anonymous
Post 07/19/2023 10:22     Subject: Families that never volunteer - swim team
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:The number of officials and timers required for summer swim meets seems overly excessive for a rec league. Even for USA swimming, dual meets only require 3-4 officials and 2 timers per lane. Regular timed final meets only require 4 officials. Are summer swim meet times official as per USA swimming? If not, I would advise to drop the dog pony show of 3 watches per lane and so many stroke and turn officials. Those stopwatch times, whether one or three, are not very accurate anyway. They are almost always faster than the real time.


Do you really not understand that the two timers are backups for the touchpad in higher-level swim?


I do, actually, because I am a usa swimming official. My point is that summer swim meets are not USA swimming meets, so they don’t follow the same rules. The officials do not need to be USA swimming officials, the pools don’t have to be standard size, the age rules are not followed, etc etc. So why do you have to follow their timing rules?

In USA swimming meets, you need 3 watches if there are no primary or secondary automated or semi automated timing systems. Why can’t summer swim only have one timer? Accuracy isn’t a great answer because as I said before, watch times are not even very accurate. And having three timers just ensures that people will get complacent and make mistakes. The officials also note order of finish to confirm or question watch times.

Arguing that you need 3 timers because it’s tedious to average 2 watch times is a weak argument. Anyway, meet manager will do the calculation, so it’s more a matter of data entry. Meet manager takes one backup time, averages two backup times, or takes the median of 3 backup times when there is no primary time. It’s easier to take one watch time than to inspect 3 watch times for the median, but that not the reason to go to one timer. It’s to alleviate the volunteer burden, which is obviously an issue because so so so many people complain about it.

FYI, minimum number officials for usa swim meets


https://www.usaswimming.org/docs/default-source/officialsdocuments/misc-officials/meet-considerations-clarification.pdf




Summer swim is a team sport. Teams are competing against each other to win. After every race, the times are posted on timing boards so people can see who got 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Kids freak out at close races. It’s fun. By averaging the times in software you are removing that whole element in swimming and making it much more like the boring club meets all the rest of the year. No thanks. If this is how you feel, stick with club swim and skip the fun summer swim.

It’s not fair to the athletes in summer swim to act like their times don’t matter. They do. The kids care.



You think that averaging 2 watch times vs taking the middle of 3 watch times would take the joy out of summer swim? The place order is the place order, so as long as the times obey that order, I don’t see what the big deal is
Anonymous
Post 07/19/2023 10:21     Subject: Families that never volunteer - swim team
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:The number of officials and timers required for summer swim meets seems overly excessive for a rec league. Even for USA swimming, dual meets only require 3-4 officials and 2 timers per lane. Regular timed final meets only require 4 officials. Are summer swim meet times official as per USA swimming? If not, I would advise to drop the dog pony show of 3 watches per lane and so many stroke and turn officials. Those stopwatch times, whether one or three, are not very accurate anyway. They are almost always faster than the real time.


Do you really not understand that the two timers are backups for the touchpad in higher-level swim?


I do, actually, because I am a usa swimming official. My point is that summer swim meets are not USA swimming meets, so they don’t follow the same rules. The officials do not need to be USA swimming officials, the pools don’t have to be standard size, the age rules are not followed, etc etc. So why do you have to follow their timing rules?

In USA swimming meets, you need 3 watches if there are no primary or secondary automated or semi automated timing systems. Why can’t summer swim only have one timer? Accuracy isn’t a great answer because as I said before, watch times are not even very accurate. And having three timers just ensures that people will get complacent and make mistakes. The officials also note order of finish to confirm or question watch times.

Arguing that you need 3 timers because it’s tedious to average 2 watch times is a weak argument. Anyway, meet manager will do the calculation, so it’s more a matter of data entry. Meet manager takes one backup time, averages two backup times, or takes the median of 3 backup times when there is no primary time. It’s easier to take one watch time than to inspect 3 watch times for the median, but that not the reason to go to one timer. It’s to alleviate the volunteer burden, which is obviously an issue because so so so many people complain about it.

FYI, minimum number officials for usa swim meets


https://www.usaswimming.org/docs/default-source/officialsdocuments/misc-officials/meet-considerations-clarification.pdf




Summer swim is a team sport. Teams are competing against each other to win. After every race, the times are posted on timing boards so people can see who got 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Kids freak out at close races. It’s fun. By averaging the times in software you are removing that whole element in swimming and making it much more like the boring club meets all the rest of the year. No thanks. If this is how you feel, stick with club swim and skip the fun summer swim.

It’s not fair to the athletes in summer swim to act like their times don’t matter. They do. The kids care.


I mean you can still just use the time from a single stopwatch. It won’t change the fun of summer swim or posting times on the board. This is recreational swim, just like little league has teen umpires, using 1 watch per lane for summer swim would not be some kind of catastrophe.


Sure and most USA swimming meets are also the equivalent of rec, why bother with touchpads and backup timers? One person with a stopwatch is good enough, right?
Anonymous
Post 07/19/2023 10:14     Subject: Families that never volunteer - swim team
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:The number of officials and timers required for summer swim meets seems overly excessive for a rec league. Even for USA swimming, dual meets only require 3-4 officials and 2 timers per lane. Regular timed final meets only require 4 officials. Are summer swim meet times official as per USA swimming? If not, I would advise to drop the dog pony show of 3 watches per lane and so many stroke and turn officials. Those stopwatch times, whether one or three, are not very accurate anyway. They are almost always faster than the real time.


Do you really not understand that the two timers are backups for the touchpad in higher-level swim?


I do, actually, because I am a usa swimming official. My point is that summer swim meets are not USA swimming meets, so they don’t follow the same rules. The officials do not need to be USA swimming officials, the pools don’t have to be standard size, the age rules are not followed, etc etc. So why do you have to follow their timing rules?

In USA swimming meets, you need 3 watches if there are no primary or secondary automated or semi automated timing systems. Why can’t summer swim only have one timer? Accuracy isn’t a great answer because as I said before, watch times are not even very accurate. And having three timers just ensures that people will get complacent and make mistakes. The officials also note order of finish to confirm or question watch times.

Arguing that you need 3 timers because it’s tedious to average 2 watch times is a weak argument. Anyway, meet manager will do the calculation, so it’s more a matter of data entry. Meet manager takes one backup time, averages two backup times, or takes the median of 3 backup times when there is no primary time. It’s easier to take one watch time than to inspect 3 watch times for the median, but that not the reason to go to one timer. It’s to alleviate the volunteer burden, which is obviously an issue because so so so many people complain about it.

FYI, minimum number officials for usa swim meets


https://www.usaswimming.org/docs/default-source/officialsdocuments/misc-officials/meet-considerations-clarification.pdf




Summer swim is a team sport. Teams are competing against each other to win. After every race, the times are posted on timing boards so people can see who got 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Kids freak out at close races. It’s fun. By averaging the times in software you are removing that whole element in swimming and making it much more like the boring club meets all the rest of the year. No thanks. If this is how you feel, stick with club swim and skip the fun summer swim.

It’s not fair to the athletes in summer swim to act like their times don’t matter. They do. The kids care.


I mean you can still just use the time from a single stopwatch. It won’t change the fun of summer swim or posting times on the board. This is recreational swim, just like little league has teen umpires, using 1 watch per lane for summer swim would not be some kind of catastrophe.
Anonymous
Post 07/19/2023 09:31     Subject: Families that never volunteer - swim team
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:The number of officials and timers required for summer swim meets seems overly excessive for a rec league. Even for USA swimming, dual meets only require 3-4 officials and 2 timers per lane. Regular timed final meets only require 4 officials. Are summer swim meet times official as per USA swimming? If not, I would advise to drop the dog pony show of 3 watches per lane and so many stroke and turn officials. Those stopwatch times, whether one or three, are not very accurate anyway. They are almost always faster than the real time.


Do you really not understand that the two timers are backups for the touchpad in higher-level swim?


I do, actually, because I am a usa swimming official. My point is that summer swim meets are not USA swimming meets, so they don’t follow the same rules. The officials do not need to be USA swimming officials, the pools don’t have to be standard size, the age rules are not followed, etc etc. So why do you have to follow their timing rules?

In USA swimming meets, you need 3 watches if there are no primary or secondary automated or semi automated timing systems. Why can’t summer swim only have one timer? Accuracy isn’t a great answer because as I said before, watch times are not even very accurate. And having three timers just ensures that people will get complacent and make mistakes. The officials also note order of finish to confirm or question watch times.

Arguing that you need 3 timers because it’s tedious to average 2 watch times is a weak argument. Anyway, meet manager will do the calculation, so it’s more a matter of data entry. Meet manager takes one backup time, averages two backup times, or takes the median of 3 backup times when there is no primary time. It’s easier to take one watch time than to inspect 3 watch times for the median, but that not the reason to go to one timer. It’s to alleviate the volunteer burden, which is obviously an issue because so so so many people complain about it.

FYI, minimum number officials for usa swim meets


https://www.usaswimming.org/docs/default-source/officialsdocuments/misc-officials/meet-considerations-clarification.pdf




Summer swim is a team sport. Teams are competing against each other to win. After every race, the times are posted on timing boards so people can see who got 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Kids freak out at close races. It’s fun. By averaging the times in software you are removing that whole element in swimming and making it much more like the boring club meets all the rest of the year. No thanks. If this is how you feel, stick with club swim and skip the fun summer swim.

It’s not fair to the athletes in summer swim to act like their times don’t matter. They do. The kids care.

Anonymous
Post 07/19/2023 09:20     Subject: Families that never volunteer - swim team
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:The number of officials and timers required for summer swim meets seems overly excessive for a rec league. Even for USA swimming, dual meets only require 3-4 officials and 2 timers per lane. Regular timed final meets only require 4 officials. Are summer swim meet times official as per USA swimming? If not, I would advise to drop the dog pony show of 3 watches per lane and so many stroke and turn officials. Those stopwatch times, whether one or three, are not very accurate anyway. They are almost always faster than the real time.


Do you really not understand that the two timers are backups for the touchpad in higher-level swim?


I do, actually, because I am a usa swimming official. My point is that summer swim meets are not USA swimming meets, so they don’t follow the same rules. The officials do not need to be USA swimming officials, the pools don’t have to be standard size, the age rules are not followed, etc etc. So why do you have to follow their timing rules?

In USA swimming meets, you need 3 watches if there are no primary or secondary automated or semi automated timing systems. Why can’t summer swim only have one timer? Accuracy isn’t a great answer because as I said before, watch times are not even very accurate. And having three timers just ensures that people will get complacent and make mistakes. The officials also note order of finish to confirm or question watch times.

Arguing that you need 3 timers because it’s tedious to average 2 watch times is a weak argument. Anyway, meet manager will do the calculation, so it’s more a matter of data entry. Meet manager takes one backup time, averages two backup times, or takes the median of 3 backup times when there is no primary time. It’s easier to take one watch time than to inspect 3 watch times for the median, but that not the reason to go to one timer. It’s to alleviate the volunteer burden, which is obviously an issue because so so so many people complain about it.

FYI, minimum number officials for usa swim meets


https://www.usaswimming.org/docs/default-source/officialsdocuments/misc-officials/meet-considerations-clarification.pdf


Anonymous
Post 07/19/2023 08:23     Subject: Families that never volunteer - swim team
Anonymous wrote:The number of officials and timers required for summer swim meets seems overly excessive for a rec league. Even for USA swimming, dual meets only require 3-4 officials and 2 timers per lane. Regular timed final meets only require 4 officials. Are summer swim meet times official as per USA swimming? If not, I would advise to drop the dog pony show of 3 watches per lane and so many stroke and turn officials. Those stopwatch times, whether one or three, are not very accurate anyway. They are almost always faster than the real time.


If you only had two timers per lane at a pool with no touchpads, instead of just taking the middle time, those two times would have to be averaged after every, single swim. And the table workers would have to confirm every single one of those those averages.
Anonymous
Post 07/19/2023 08:13     Subject: Families that never volunteer - swim team
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:The entitlement on this thread is insane. The fact remains that summer swim teams rely on many volunteers throughout the season. If everyone said f it, this team takes the volunteer commitment too seriously, then it won’t happen. The team shuts down.

What’s wrong with showing and investing in your kids’ activities? Summer swim is a community thing, invest in it or don’t participate.

Always the same parents that step up to help. It’s a shame, what are you teaching your children?

So selfish.


It's a bandwidth thing. Thankfully our team isn't run by people like you.


Your team is run by volunteers like PP and me, and we all have important jobs and a million other things to do. The difference is that we invest our time and effort in our communities and our kids, while you don’t. Maybe get off DCUM and do something productive with your time.


I can't. I literally can't. I would if I could. Does attacking a struggling person make you feel better?


Respectfully, getting out of your own head and helping others is exactly what you need.


What if it's not just in her head? You don't know.

You don't know if she has cancer, chronic daily migraines, somebody dying, a wrecking ball hit her house, divorcing, working 75 hours a week, tied up volunteering to give impoverished kids free surgeries to correct birth defects or representing battered women in court, or is some top secret CIA mixed martial arts lady in the middle of fighting some foreign adversary dude hanging off a balcony like Jason Bourne. You just don't know.


I've got one of those issues daily and have had multiple of those issues at one time and I find ways to volunteer at home. And, sure, its great to be a surgeon volunteering or a lawyer volunteering your time to help others, but that shouldn't be at the expense of your kids, who also need your attention and support and part of that is if you have them summer swim and the expectation is you help out there, since you are such a generous and giving person, no reason you cannot help out on swim team. Really, its less than two months.


Ok. Cases are in trial. Should I ask the judge for a continuance for summer swim team? Aside from death of parent, another parent just paralyzed weeks ago, my long covid, plus a wrecking ball to my house. Maybe that can get a continuance to show face to the swim mommies with nothing better to do then feign business and moral superiority?


This is such obvious BS. DH is an actual judge and also manages to be a certified S&T on many Wednesday evenings and Saturday mornings. Know how? Because trials happen on evenings and Saturday mornings. Besides, there are many fewer trials over the summer because so many people are in vacation.
Anonymous
Post 07/19/2023 08:05     Subject: Families that never volunteer - swim team
Anonymous wrote:The number of officials and timers required for summer swim meets seems overly excessive for a rec league. Even for USA swimming, dual meets only require 3-4 officials and 2 timers per lane. Regular timed final meets only require 4 officials. Are summer swim meet times official as per USA swimming? If not, I would advise to drop the dog pony show of 3 watches per lane and so many stroke and turn officials. Those stopwatch times, whether one or three, are not very accurate anyway. They are almost always faster than the real time.


Do you really not understand that the two timers are backups for the touchpad in higher-level swim?
Anonymous
Post 07/19/2023 08:05     Subject: Families that never volunteer - swim team
It is tough enough on swimmers sometimes with three timers. When you have crappy timers that don't pay attention or are to busy chatting, it hurts the kid. Some teams make sure their timers are on it, some do not.

Watched a B meet where the timers were a mess in one lane and kid after kid got bad times and lost heats even though they clearly out touched the others.

Summer records can be influenced by timers as well. At least with 3 you are normalizing the data to help the swimmer.

We have volunteer issues too. But honestly if a family does not want to put in the work then they should probably choose a different activity/sport. It is that simple.
Anonymous
Post 07/19/2023 07:46     Subject: Families that never volunteer - swim team
Anonymous wrote:The number of officials and timers required for summer swim meets seems overly excessive for a rec league. Even for USA swimming, dual meets only require 3-4 officials and 2 timers per lane. Regular timed final meets only require 4 officials. Are summer swim meet times official as per USA swimming? If not, I would advise to drop the dog pony show of 3 watches per lane and so many stroke and turn officials. Those stopwatch times, whether one or three, are not very accurate anyway. They are almost always faster than the real time.


During Covid, at VHSL high school meets, there was one timer per lane and we used two watches.
Anonymous
Post 07/19/2023 07:34     Subject: Families that never volunteer - swim team
Anonymous wrote:The number of officials and timers required for summer swim meets seems overly excessive for a rec league. Even for USA swimming, dual meets only require 3-4 officials and 2 timers per lane. Regular timed final meets only require 4 officials. Are summer swim meet times official as per USA swimming? If not, I would advise to drop the dog pony show of 3 watches per lane and so many stroke and turn officials. Those stopwatch times, whether one or three, are not very accurate anyway. They are almost always faster than the real time.


There are more officials at USA swimming meets than summer swim. They have 2 timers per lane because they use touchpads, but you aren’t counting the additional people at the table running the software, installing the touchpads, and fixing the timing system when it malfunctions (which happens a lot).
Anonymous
Post 07/19/2023 07:28     Subject: Re:Families that never volunteer - swim team
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Wow reading this thread - two different things jump out: lots of pride that summer swim is fully volunteer run. And that for many pools it’s not working.

For the pools where it’s not working - can’t a participation fee be charged? Similar to the fees families pay for their kids to play in a basketball or soccer league.
Then the pool hires teens/adults interested in part time work. They already hire lifeguards, gate guards, snack window kids - add Saturday/Monday timers plus set up/clean up. Maybe these are lifeguards who want more hours. Or teens who aren’t lifeguard certified but would love to earn money at the pool. Or adults who wants a part-time summer gig. The payroll system is already in place.

Just an idea.



I think outsourcing the setup and cleanup would be great.


Realistically, you aren't going to get people who want a job lasting an hour at 7:00 a.m. unless you pay a fortune.


I truly love the people complaining that summer swim is elitist while suggesting changes that would requiring tripling the fees.
Anonymous
Post 07/19/2023 06:55     Subject: Re:Families that never volunteer - swim team
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Wow reading this thread - two different things jump out: lots of pride that summer swim is fully volunteer run. And that for many pools it’s not working.

For the pools where it’s not working - can’t a participation fee be charged? Similar to the fees families pay for their kids to play in a basketball or soccer league.
Then the pool hires teens/adults interested in part time work. They already hire lifeguards, gate guards, snack window kids - add Saturday/Monday timers plus set up/clean up. Maybe these are lifeguards who want more hours. Or teens who aren’t lifeguard certified but would love to earn money at the pool. Or adults who wants a part-time summer gig. The payroll system is already in place.

Just an idea.



I think there are a few issues here.

One is that the kids who want to be at the pool early Saturday morning are swimming and volunteer coaching. Pools already struggle to fill lifeguard shifts, so finding these people is going to be hard.

The other is that there are tons of sports and camps that are out of reach for middle class families. Making this one more expensive, so that it's one more option for the rich people, seems unfair.

But it sounds like there are pools that do allow people to buy their way out, and most pools will allow people to hire their own replacements.


These Families are not middle class.


Maybe at your pool, my family and plenty of others at our pool are.



What income do you consider middle class?


My family’s income is about $100K.
Anonymous
Post 07/19/2023 01:41     Subject: Families that never volunteer - swim team
The number of officials and timers required for summer swim meets seems overly excessive for a rec league. Even for USA swimming, dual meets only require 3-4 officials and 2 timers per lane. Regular timed final meets only require 4 officials. Are summer swim meet times official as per USA swimming? If not, I would advise to drop the dog pony show of 3 watches per lane and so many stroke and turn officials. Those stopwatch times, whether one or three, are not very accurate anyway. They are almost always faster than the real time.