Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From the article:

That means there’s something in even the most liberal societies that’s nudging women away from math and science, even when those are their best subjects.

As a woman in STEM (Ivy Physics PhD) I would suggest that maybe it's the fact that we are harassed and belittled from the minute we set foot into our first advanced STEM classroom. Personally, I'm not sure at this point the goal should be to convince more girls to go into STEM so much as it should be to make sure those of us who do aren't treated like interlopers and to take harassment seriously.

I have an employee who consistently compares me and my responsibilities to those of his SAHW. I earn twice his salary, and he simply doesn't have the technical chops to do my job...yet he can't get past constantly talking about how hard it must be to have to raise kids and work (as if he's not doing the same).

Women aren't not choosing STEM because we don't like...we're leaving because we are treated like garbage.

perhaps you would feel more at home being a physics phd in tehran? care to move to the middle east tomorrow?

I wasn't aware that our bar for comparison was Iran...

That said, your point is a non-sequitor. The question is why do women in America not choose STEM. One possibility is that we don't like it. But the reality is that some of us do. We like it so much, in fact, we put up with non-stop harassment to pursue careers in STEM...and then have randos on the internet suggest we should just be happy we don't live in an Islamic state when we point out the reality of what it's like to be an American woman in STEM.

+1 well said!

^Agree, well said

Anonymous wrote:Megan McArdle's excellent article on the whole situation:

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-08-09/as-a-woman-in-tech-i-realized-these-are-not-my-people

"No, the reason I left is that I came into work one Monday morning and joined the guys at our work table, and one of them said “What did you do this weekend?”

I was in the throes of a brief, doomed romance. I had attended a concert that Saturday night. I answered the question with an account of both. The guys stared blankly. Then silence. Then one of them said: “I built a fiber-channel network in my basement,” and our co-workers fell all over themselves asking him to describe every step in loving detail.

At that moment I realized that fundamentally, these are not my people. I liked the work. But I was never going to like it enough to blow a weekend doing more of it for free. Which meant that I was never going to be as good at that job as the guys around me."

"These preferences show up across cultures, and indeed, the less sexist a society is overall, the more you seem to see women splitting off into fields that emphasize people, and words, and caring. '

In rich countries, women are not going to want to do boring jobs.

they want to do fun jobs taht still pay decently.

Actually, you missed her point. The guys in the article thought their job was so fun, they did it on the weekend for free. She didn't have the same passion.

I kind of hate the article, because it will lead to more stereotyping, and I kind of have to admit she's totally right. In 20+ years in tech (the network/hardware side, which is far more male-dominated than software), I've never worked with another woman. I've tried to recruit, both in the workplace and with young girls at school career fairs. I've never been successful, despite proving to some software engineers that their skills were very transferrable. The fact is, the job is stressful enough that you *have* to find it fun. The field changes all the time; you're constantly getting your hands dirty; you spend a lot of time learning new skills on your own; and it's not family friendly nor filled with sparkling conversationalists. (I've never been in a meeting where anyone asked what we did last weekend.) But to some of us, it's intensely interesting work.

I'm holding out hope that the current generation of kids who grew up with tech with even the gender playing field a bit. No evidence so far at my workplace.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From the article:

That means there’s something in even the most liberal societies that’s nudging women away from math and science, even when those are their best subjects.

As a woman in STEM (Ivy Physics PhD) I would suggest that maybe it's the fact that we are harassed and belittled from the minute we set foot into our first advanced STEM classroom. Personally, I'm not sure at this point the goal should be to convince more girls to go into STEM so much as it should be to make sure those of us who do aren't treated like interlopers and to take harassment seriously.

I have an employee who consistently compares me and my responsibilities to those of his SAHW. I earn twice his salary, and he simply doesn't have the technical chops to do my job...yet he can't get past constantly talking about how hard it must be to have to raise kids and work (as if he's not doing the same).

Women aren't not choosing STEM because we don't like...we're leaving because we are treated like garbage.

perhaps you would feel more at home being a physics phd in tehran? care to move to the middle east tomorrow?

I wasn't aware that our bar for comparison was Iran...

That said, your point is a non-sequitor. The question is why do women in America not choose STEM. One possibility is that we don't like it. But the reality is that some of us do. We like it so much, in fact, we put up with non-stop harassment to pursue careers in STEM...and then have randos on the internet suggest we should just be happy we don't live in an Islamic state when we point out the reality of what it's like to be an American woman in STEM.

+1 well said!

Anonymous wrote:From the article:

That means there’s something in even the most liberal societies that’s nudging women away from math and science, even when those are their best subjects.

As a woman in STEM (Ivy Physics PhD) I would suggest that maybe it's the fact that we are harassed and belittled from the minute we set foot into our first advanced STEM classroom. Personally, I'm not sure at this point the goal should be to convince more girls to go into STEM so much as it should be to make sure those of us who do aren't treated like interlopers and to take harassment seriously.

I have an employee who consistently compares me and my responsibilities to those of his SAHW. I earn twice his salary, and he simply doesn't have the technical chops to do my job...yet he can't get past constantly talking about how hard it must be to have to raise kids and work (as if he's not doing the same).

Women aren't not choosing STEM because we don't like...we're leaving because we are treated like garbage.

same reason everyone of my friends left STEM. developers are treated like garbage. And it is the huge influx of guest workers that allows companies to treat people as disposable widgets. Stop the H1Bs, H4s, L1s, F1s, OPTs, H2Bs and all the other subsidies for companies to bring in cheap disposable guest workers.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From the article:

That means there’s something in even the most liberal societies that’s nudging women away from math and science, even when those are their best subjects.

As a woman in STEM (Ivy Physics PhD) I would suggest that maybe it's the fact that we are harassed and belittled from the minute we set foot into our first advanced STEM classroom. Personally, I'm not sure at this point the goal should be to convince more girls to go into STEM so much as it should be to make sure those of us who do aren't treated like interlopers and to take harassment seriously.

I have an employee who consistently compares me and my responsibilities to those of his SAHW. I earn twice his salary, and he simply doesn't have the technical chops to do my job...yet he can't get past constantly talking about how hard it must be to have to raise kids and work (as if he's not doing the same).

Women aren't not choosing STEM because we don't like...we're leaving because we are treated like garbage.

perhaps you would feel more at home being a physics phd in tehran? care to move to the middle east tomorrow?

I wasn't aware that our bar for comparison was Iran...

That said, your point is a non-sequitor. The question is why do women in America not choose STEM. One possibility is that we don't like it. But the reality is that some of us do. We like it so much, in fact, we put up with non-stop harassment to pursue careers in STEM...and then have randos on the internet suggest we should just be happy we don't live in an Islamic state when we point out the reality of what it's like to be an American woman in STEM.

Anonymous wrote:From the article:

That means there’s something in even the most liberal societies that’s nudging women away from math and science, even when those are their best subjects.

As a woman in STEM (Ivy Physics PhD) I would suggest that maybe it's the fact that we are harassed and belittled from the minute we set foot into our first advanced STEM classroom. Personally, I'm not sure at this point the goal should be to convince more girls to go into STEM so much as it should be to make sure those of us who do aren't treated like interlopers and to take harassment seriously.

I have an employee who consistently compares me and my responsibilities to those of his SAHW. I earn twice his salary, and he simply doesn't have the technical chops to do my job...yet he can't get past constantly talking about how hard it must be to have to raise kids and work (as if he's not doing the same).

Women aren't not choosing STEM because we don't like...we're leaving because we are treated like garbage.

perhaps you would feel more at home being a physics phd in tehran? care to move to the middle east tomorrow?

From the article:

That means there’s something in even the most liberal societies that’s nudging women away from math and science, even when those are their best subjects.

As a woman in STEM (Ivy Physics PhD) I would suggest that maybe it's the fact that we are harassed and belittled from the minute we set foot into our first advanced STEM classroom. Personally, I'm not sure at this point the goal should be to convince more girls to go into STEM so much as it should be to make sure those of us who do aren't treated like interlopers and to take harassment seriously.

I have an employee who consistently compares me and my responsibilities to those of his SAHW. I earn twice his salary, and he simply doesn't have the technical chops to do my job...yet he can't get past constantly talking about how hard it must be to have to raise kids and work (as if he's not doing the same).

Women aren't not choosing STEM because we don't like...we're leaving because we are treated like garbage.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is interesting to note that in more developing countries women choose to study STEM at much higher rates than in wealthier countries. Those developing countries have much more patriarchial cultures.

That's because of economic pressures.

There are more "fun jobs" in the us that pay decent than in those countries.

pretty much waht the atlantic just today.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/the-more-gender-equality-the-fewer-women-in-stem/553592/?utm_source=twb

Interesting. it mirrors what some said on this thread but were shot down.

A new study explores a strange paradox: In countries that empower women, they are less likely to choose math and science professions.

So what explains the tendency for nations that have traditionally less gender equality to have more women in science and technology than their gender-progressive counterparts do?

women in countries with higher gender inequality are simply seeking the clearest possible path to financial freedom. And often, that path leads through stem professions.

The issue doesn’t appear to be girls’ aptitude for stem professions. In looking at test scores across 67 countries and regions, Stoet and Geary found that girls performed about as well or better than boys did on science in most countries, and in almost all countries, girls would have been capable of college-level science and math classes if they had enrolled in them.

But when it comes to their relative strengths, in almost all the countries—all except Romania and Lebanon—boys’ best subject was science, and girls’ was reading. (That is, even if an average girl was as good as an average boy at science, she was still likely to be even better at reading.)

And the more gender-equal the country, as measured by the World Economic Forum’s Global Gender Gap Index, the larger this gap between boys and girls in having science as their best subject.

They posit that this is because the countries that empower women also empower them, indirectly, to pick whatever career they’d enjoy most and be best at.

“Countries with the highest gender equality tend to be welfare states,” they write, “with a high level of social security.”

When the study authors looked at the “overall life satisfaction” rating of each country—a measure of economic opportunity and hardship—they found that gender-equal countries had more life satisfaction. The life-satisfaction ranking explained 35 percent of the variation between gender equality and women’s participation in stem. That correlation echoes past research showing that the genders are actually more segregated by field of study in more economically developed places.

“Some would say that the gender stem gap occurs not because girls can’t do science, but because they have other alternatives, based on their strengths in verbal skills,” she said. “In wealthy nations, they believe that they have the freedom to pursue those alternatives and not worry so much that they pay less.”

The moral of the story is, we shouldn't be burning resources in forcing girls to get into stem. In fact we should be celebrating that they don't have to and can self actualize in what they find most interesting. That doesn't mean we shouldn't actively combat discrimination against women who do CHOOSE to be software devs for instance, but it isn't a huge deal if they'd rather self actualize at a fun non-profit instead.

Anonymous wrote:Assume most people have seen this by now if not google

Curious on thoughts of individuals

Are there actual differences between males and females?

How much should companies push for diversity (sexual, racial, etc)?

For something like coding does race/sex matter at all shouldn't you just higher the best coders period?

Google is a particularly intense echo chamber because it is in the middle of Silicon Valley and is so life-encompassing as a place to work. With free food, internal meme boards and weekly companywide meetings, Google becomes a huge part of its employees’ lives. Some even live on campus. For many, including myself, working at Google is a major part of their identity, almost like a cult with its own leaders and saints, all believed to righteously uphold the sacred motto of “Don’t be evil.”

https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-i-was-fired-by-google-1502481290?mod=djcm_OBV1_092216

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Women are more emotional and people oriented
Men are more factual and data oriented

Any Biology 101 student can tell you that

Certain personality types are more common among male than females

ISTJ for example the "engineer" personality is almost 300% more likely in males than females

Just because it is rare doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I am a female INTJ and work in tech. Am I supposed to be discriminated against because of it? Also do we really believe in the MB test? Did you get your colors done too? Let me guess you're an Autumn?

Introverts are overrepresented in IT jobs. One study found that ISTJ, INTJ and INTP make together 50% of software professionals (they comprise 17% of the population). The overrepresentation found in this study was the most blatant for INTJs (2.1% of the population, 15% in the study) and INTPs (3.3% of the population, 12% in the study). Other studies may differ in percentages, but they all conclude that introverts with "T" component (ISTJs, INTPs, INTJs) plus sometimes extraverts with "T" component are overrepresented.

Hence, I postulate:
Start shaming the introverts. We INTJs/INTPs should be aware of our introvert privilege.

Start affirmative actions for extroverts with "F" component, such as ESFJ (one study found ZERO ESFJs, while they are more than 12% of the population!!!).

After all, the differences in the percentage of different MBTI types couldn't be possibly due to their different interests and fact that they find different jobs interesting. Extrovert Feelers gap is surely due to harmful stereotypes, discriminatory practices and introvert privilege.

obvious troll is obvious

Perhaps intentionally so, but higher representation of introverts in tech, particularly subgroups of introerts, relative to their population, would indicate that some traits are more expressed with regards to interest in STEM, but not with success in STEM.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Women are more emotional and people oriented
Men are more factual and data oriented

Any Biology 101 student can tell you that

Certain personality types are more common among male than females

ISTJ for example the "engineer" personality is almost 300% more likely in males than females

Just because it is rare doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I am a female INTJ and work in tech. Am I supposed to be discriminated against because of it? Also do we really believe in the MB test? Did you get your colors done too? Let me guess you're an Autumn?

Introverts are overrepresented in IT jobs. One study found that ISTJ, INTJ and INTP make together 50% of software professionals (they comprise 17% of the population). The overrepresentation found in this study was the most blatant for INTJs (2.1% of the population, 15% in the study) and INTPs (3.3% of the population, 12% in the study). Other studies may differ in percentages, but they all conclude that introverts with "T" component (ISTJs, INTPs, INTJs) plus sometimes extraverts with "T" component are overrepresented.

Hence, I postulate:
Start shaming the introverts. We INTJs/INTPs should be aware of our introvert privilege.

Start affirmative actions for extroverts with "F" component, such as ESFJ (one study found ZERO ESFJs, while they are more than 12% of the population!!!).

After all, the differences in the percentage of different MBTI types couldn't be possibly due to their different interests and fact that they find different jobs interesting. Extrovert Feelers gap is surely due to harmful stereotypes, discriminatory practices and introvert privilege.

obvious troll is obvious

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Women are more emotional and people oriented
Men are more factual and data oriented

Any Biology 101 student can tell you that

Certain personality types are more common among male than females

ISTJ for example the "engineer" personality is almost 300% more likely in males than females

Just because it is rare doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I am a female INTJ and work in tech. Am I supposed to be discriminated against because of it? Also do we really believe in the MB test? Did you get your colors done too? Let me guess you're an Autumn?

Introverts are overrepresented in IT jobs. One study found that ISTJ, INTJ and INTP make together 50% of software professionals (they comprise 17% of the population). The overrepresentation found in this study was the most blatant for INTJs (2.1% of the population, 15% in the study) and INTPs (3.3% of the population, 12% in the study). Other studies may differ in percentages, but they all conclude that introverts with "T" component (ISTJs, INTPs, INTJs) plus sometimes extraverts with "T" component are overrepresented.

Hence, I postulate:
Start shaming the introverts. We INTJs/INTPs should be aware of our introvert privilege.

Start affirmative actions for extroverts with "F" component, such as ESFJ (one study found ZERO ESFJs, while they are more than 12% of the population!!!).

After all, the differences in the percentage of different MBTI types couldn't be possibly due to their different interests and fact that they find different jobs interesting. Extrovert Feelers gap is surely due to harmful stereotypes, discriminatory practices and introvert privilege.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Women are more emotional and people oriented
Men are more factual and data oriented

Any Biology 101 student can tell you that

Certain personality types are more common among male than females

ISTJ for example the "engineer" personality is almost 300% more likely in males than females

I just love this. "Women are more emotional" says the sex that carries out the vast majority of violent crimes. But I guess that's the privilege of being the dominant group -- you get to set the definitions and the language.

I also love using data from one sexist system (medicine and social science) to back up another sexist system.

Exactly. 65% of psychiatrists are men. And they diagnose women more often than men as being "neurotic." Hmmmmmm......

AMA reports 57% of recent psychiatry residents are female so expect those numbers to change soon. https://wire.ama-assn.org/education/how-medical-specialties-vary-gender

When it comes to psychology, the ratio has widened to 66% female, but they go of course through different training http://www.apa.org/workforce/publications/13-demographics/index.aspx As well all know practitioners from both fields work together from a clinical and behavorial standpoint.

The National Girls Collaborative Project claims that 62% of the social science workforce is female. https://ngcproject.org/statistics

The following article claims that women are at parity or better in life sciences, psychology and social sciences in academia in both students and professorships http://www.umass.edu/preferen/You%20Must%20Read%20This/CeciGintherKahnWilliamsPSPI-10-2014.pdf

I might reconsider that academic research, at least in the social sciences to be sexist if women are more likely to be the authors.