Anonymous wrote:PP here.

I understand that many liberals think this sounds fundamentally wrong. It's not. Here's why --

The law thinks people should have a right to practice their religion freely or associate with others freely without government interference. These are any person's most basic rights in a civil society.

It's not that gays may not be harmed by the rejection of catering services or admission to an organization; it's that denying a group the right to freely practice their faith or associate with whomever they please is more egregious.

The Torah, Bible, and Quran all say homosexuality is wrong. Nowadays you will find people twisting the words of these books to accommodate gays. It's just plain wrong. Form your own sect or religion but the original holy books all said homosexuality was wrong. So let religious folks reject the homosexual lifestyle if they wish to. It's their right to do so.

No one is forcing them to have gay sex.

PP here.

I understand that many liberals think this sounds fundamentally wrong. It's not. Here's why --

The law thinks people should have a right to practice their religion freely or associate with others freely without government interference. These are any person's most basic rights in a civil society.

It's not that gays may not be harmed by the rejection of catering services or admission to an organization; it's that denying a group the right to freely practice their faith or associate with whomever they please is more egregious.

The Torah, Bible, and Quran all say homosexuality is wrong. Nowadays you will find people twisting the words of these books to accommodate gays. It's just plain wrong. Form your own sect or religion but the original holy books all said homosexuality was wrong. So let religious folks reject the homosexual lifestyle if they wish to. It's their right to do so.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, pp, you are misunderstanding the law or simply don't agree with it.

The caterer who is truly running a religious business can use this right to discriminate, because her right to practice her religion freely is more critical than the governments need to protect gays from discrimination. But this right is reserved for those who truly espouse religious principles, not for just anyone who hates gays. The point is to protect religious freedom (or the freedom of assoc), not to permit bigotry and discrimination, because we all should know by now that hatred in bigotry and discrimination is a social harm.

If you as a caterer never thought to make your business a religious entity to begin with, you are not that religious but using religion as an excuse now to discriminate. Not okay. There are religious caterers who only cater to religious events. These businesses can use this exemption. Not you, who was catering universally to all kinds of people before, but now suddenly became aware some of your food will be purchased by gays and dislike it.

The bolded IS the problem - this is outright wrong. It's not about purchasing; it's about participating.

I'm sorry, is the wedding cake served at the altar? Selling a cake to be served at a reception is not in any way participating in a ceremony.

And the law doesn't require that cakes ONLY be served at an alter before they have the right to discriminate gays. The right to discriminate gays is born out of the Freedom of Association and Freedom of Religion clauses of the Constitution. If your religion thinks homosexuality is a sin, and your business is clearly a religious business, then you may reject catering to gays. If your organization thinks homosexuality is wrong, and it was founded on this belief, then you may choose to reject homosexuals from your organization. The law doesn't require the catering be for religious ceremonies for gays; it only requires that your organization or business be founded on anti-homosexuality belief.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, pp, you are misunderstanding the law or simply don't agree with it.

The caterer who is truly running a religious business can use this right to discriminate, because her right to practice her religion freely is more critical than the governments need to protect gays from discrimination. But this right is reserved for those who truly espouse religious principles, not for just anyone who hates gays. The point is to protect religious freedom (or the freedom of assoc), not to permit bigotry and discrimination, because we all should know by now that hatred in bigotry and discrimination is a social harm.

If you as a caterer never thought to make your business a religious entity to begin with, you are not that religious but using religion as an excuse now to discriminate. Not okay. There are religious caterers who only cater to religious events. These businesses can use this exemption. Not you, who was catering universally to all kinds of people before, but now suddenly became aware some of your food will be purchased by gays and dislike it.

The bolded IS the problem - this is outright wrong. It's not about purchasing; it's about participating.

I'm sorry, is the wedding cake served at the altar? Selling a cake to be served at a reception is not in any way participating in a ceremony.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, pp, you are misunderstanding the law or simply don't agree with it.

The caterer who is truly running a religious business can use this right to discriminate, because her right to practice her religion freely is more critical than the governments need to protect gays from discrimination. But this right is reserved for those who truly espouse religious principles, not for just anyone who hates gays. The point is to protect religious freedom (or the freedom of assoc), not to permit bigotry and discrimination, because we all should know by now that hatred in bigotry and discrimination is a social harm.

If you as a caterer never thought to make your business a religious entity to begin with, you are not that religious but using religion as an excuse now to discriminate. Not okay. There are religious caterers who only cater to religious events. These businesses can use this exemption. Not you, who was catering universally to all kinds of people before, but now suddenly became aware some of your food will be purchased by gays and dislike it.

The bolded IS the problem - this is outright wrong. It's not about purchasing; it's about participating.

If conservatives had not opposed gay rights every step of the way, I might believe this. But I remember the history. And so I don't believe you one bit.

Anonymous wrote:No, pp, you are misunderstanding the law or simply don't agree with it.

The caterer who is truly running a religious business can use this right to discriminate, because her right to practice her religion freely is more critical than the governments need to protect gays from discrimination. But this right is reserved for those who truly espouse religious principles, not for just anyone who hates gays. The point is to protect religious freedom (or the freedom of assoc), not to permit bigotry and discrimination, because we all should know by now that hatred in bigotry and discrimination is a social harm.

If you as a caterer never thought to make your business a religious entity to begin with, you are not that religious but using religion as an excuse now to discriminate. Not okay. There are religious caterers who only cater to religious events. These businesses can use this exemption. Not you, who was catering universally to all kinds of people before, but now suddenly became aware some of your food will be purchased by gays and dislike it.

The bolded IS the problem - this is outright wrong. It's not about purchasing; it's about participating.

No, pp, you are misunderstanding the law or simply don't agree with it.

The caterer who is truly running a religious business can use this right to discriminate, because her right to practice her religion freely is more critical than the governments need to protect gays from discrimination. But this right is reserved for those who truly espouse religious principles, not for just anyone who hates gays. The point is to protect religious freedom (or the freedom of assoc), not to permit bigotry and discrimination, because we all should know by now that hatred in bigotry and discrimination is a social harm.

If you as a caterer never thought to make your business a religious entity to begin with, you are not that religious but using religion as an excuse now to discriminate. Not okay. There are religious caterers who only cater to religious events. These businesses can use this exemption. Not you, who was catering universally to all kinds of people before, but now suddenly became aware some of your food will be purchased by gays and dislike it.

I think the law is designed to let those who reject homosexuality be. Gays seem to take issue with this. They want those who reject the lifestyle on religious grounds to be forced to get involved with it. I support treating people with dignity, but I shouldn't have to cater their "wedding". Most gays understand and wouldn't bother people who don't want a part. But there is a group of political rebel rousers who sole objective is force acceptance and endorsement on the religious. This cannot happen. This is the same abuse LGBT people have been fighting.

Seeing as this is in the political forum--

Lets bring it back to there, shall we?

The point is the law allows discrimination because of the freedom of association and freedom of religion. These rights have boundaries but they exist.

So from a legal perspective, religious entities and associations or groups that choose to reject homosexuals CAN.

And thank God for that, in my opinion.

The Indiana law is far too broad and it will be changed or struck down if it ever gets to the Supreme Court of the US.

I am a Muslim. I absolutely do not support homosexual or any LGBT lifestyle at all. But in Islam, there is no earthly punishment for it. Islam says its an abomination. So I don't think LGBT should be denied housing, employment, education, health care, the right to inherit, etc... But I do think they should not be permitted religious marriages.

I think the laws of the US are incredibly just and fair. Let those who accept homosexuality be but let those who reject it be also.

You are talking about people, I am talking about the religion. Both the Torah & Quran say homosexuality is detestable.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do you keep assuming its only Christianity that rejects homosexuality? Islam and Judaism do also.

actually it is not all of Christianity. Some churches are open.

84% of American Jews accept gay marriage: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/177877#.VSnYX86-xNw

Muslims only comprise a fraction of a percent of the US population.

For these reasons, it is not really productive to discuss Judaism or Islam. Numerically it is Christians who represent the barrier.

Anonymous wrote:Why do you keep assuming its only Christianity that rejects homosexuality? Islam and Judaism do also.

Because it's a certain subset of Christians that are constantly making such a big stink about it.

Anonymous wrote:Why do you keep assuming its only Christianity that rejects homosexuality? Islam and Judaism do also.

actually it is not all of Christianity. Some churches are open.

Why do you keep assuming its only Christianity that rejects homosexuality? Islam and Judaism do also.

Anonymous wrote:

Logic flaw: a Christian would never knowingly patronize a business run by gays.

All you Christians know that you need to give up all your iPhones, iPods, iPads and Macs, right? RIGHT?

Also, they can never see movies or television.