Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Those of you hoping for a "coup" or regime change.......

Does it occur to you that regime change might make Russia even worse?
I think Putin is a dangerous dictator, but will people from the Wagner Group be better?

I’m no expert (and some here actually are; I barely follow this stuff) but yes, I know it could be worse. The thing is that Putin is terrible. For two quick examples, his invasion of Ukraine and his treatment of Alexei Navalny.

Also my weakly hoping for Putin to be deposed isn’t really going to move the needle anywhere. I just wish Putin were gone and that some of the promise of democracy that Russia had in the early 90s could be realized.

Russia lived a hungry life under that promise and they won’t forget it. They are completely disillusioned about the West and democracy (didn’t turn out well for them). I don’t think there is any hope now. It will always be some level of autocracy

💯

It’s as if people have no contact or Russian knowledge

There was a good foreign affairs piece recently on how Russia’s future lies to the east.

Russia needs to stop looking west as they have done for 400 years.

The reform Russia needs is to see the east as equals and not through a misguided racial superiority lens — 400 years of chasing European acceptance as been for naught.

Democracy and being a “Western European country” is not for Russia and deep down even the normal Russian person doesn’t want this.

PP you are replying to. I think Russia needs to be pragmatic. They can very well work with the west if they realize that the west is prone to outsmart them, that they will never join the first world club (that they already know actually) and the west is their class enemy. Which does not mean the literal adversary! Just that their interests are exactly the opposite, so they need to keep the diplomacy going . Russia really sucks at diplomacy. There are very few young, westernized diplomats. They also suck at PR and marketing. Pragmatism is the name of the game for them, not trying to fight absolutely stupid wars or make ridiculous demands or even more ridiculous concessions to the west like it was before Putin.

I'm not a politician nor a European/Eurasia/Asia expert by any stretch of the imagination. But sometimes the experts become entrenched with technicalities in their respective specialties. That can lead to thinking that is interesting to contemplate but maybe not too smart.

I don't think Europe has a problem with Russia being part of Europe; I think Europe has a problem with a Russia that is forever governed by maniacs and thugs. Russia's instability threatens what can be a tenuous peace in the rest of Europe. Russian's fall to communism led to communism threatening peace in the rest of Europe. The Russian revolution that overthrew its last czar finally pulled Russia out of a medieval structure, but that change was immediately usurped by yet another oppressive form of government. Subsequently Russia has not had the chance to enjoy the fruits of democracy that most of Europe today takes for granted. That is the problem Europe has with Russia.

Russia would be extraordinarily foolish to look towards the East and China. The racial/cultural/religious/etc divides will never allow Russia to operate on equal footing with that part of the world. John Lennon sang a pretty song, Imagine, but in the real world these differences would be insurmountable. The only thing Russia would achieve would be to become subservient to its Asian overlords.

I'm Eurasian (one european parent, one asian parent). The mixing of cultures works well for some people, PP
Having said that, I agree that since the "West" 's greatest export is democracy, that any nuclear country that is not a democracy threatens its ideals in the most fundamental way.

Russia, which has a ton of antiquated nuclear weapons, is the largest country in the world by far, has been unstable so many times in past 100 years, and has never had a truly democratic government...

... is felt to be an enormous threat by the west. The goal of NATO and associated countries is the long-term democratization of Russia. That's it. It's far-fetched, and perhaps won't happen in our lifetimes, but plenty of goals have been started by humans who knew they wouldn't live to see the final achievement. Notre Dame, the Paris Cathedral, took two centuries to complete. People are preparing to travel to Mars. Humans live in hope.

The U.S.’ greatest exports is weapons. Stop regurgitating DoS talking points that are demonstrably, obviously false on their face. What you call democracy is just hegemony and expansion of global interests, which the US does hesitate to advance with violent means and lies. Just stop.

What arrogance to say that NATO and the US should have any say in how other countries are ran.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if the Wagner soldiers were being used like ground meat to buffer the regular Russian military, does this mean the Russian regulars will now take their place on the front lines?

The Russian regulars are conscripts from the ethnic hinterlands with barely any training. At least Wagner had battle-hardened operators and criminals accustomed to violence.

Anonymous wrote:So if the Wagner soldiers were being used like ground meat to buffer the regular Russian military, does this mean the Russian regulars will now take their place on the front lines?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There's an old saying, "don't spook the sheep."

Prigozhin did what he set out to do. The sheep are now in motion.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/freaked-russia-shocked-military-coup-121945733.html

You guys really need to read more of Lenin-Marxist theory books on Revolution...

Haha this didn’t age well! They are all back from dachas with their buckwheat by now.
Most didn’t even bother.

Oh, how we see things so differently.

I think the best way to explain the differences is using Soviet dogma.

"You may not be interested in strategy, but strategy is interested in you." --Trotsky

"Sometimes history needs a push" --Lenin

"It is at moments of need that one learns who one’s friends are. Defeated armies learn their lesson." --Lenin

"Where force is necessary, there it must be applied boldly, decisively and completely. But one must know the limitations of force; one must know when to blend force with a maneuver, a blow with an agreement." --Trotsky

"Any cook should be able to run the country." --Lenin

In time. Be patient. You'll see. Russia is still on track for Anarchy within two years.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The good news is that the arguably most effective military unit on the Russian side in Ukraine is effectively neutralized. There's no way that Wagner will reform or be called onto the frontlines now. I'm certain that if Putin ordered Prigozhin into combat that he would refuse the order.

Prigozhin's troops fired upon and shot down some very expensive choppers. That won't be forgiven, which is likely why Roskomnadzor is covering up what happened yesterday. The Russian propagandists need a way to spin the events in a way favorable to Putin.

"Though monitors said the internet as a whole remained broadly functional Saturday evening, Russian government news outlet Tass reported that searches for Wagner leader Yevgeniy Prigozhin on Yandex, Russia’s Google equivalent, yielded notices that some results were hidden in accordance with federal law. The Russian social network VKontakte also blocked content related to Prigozhin, according to the Atlantic Council’s Digital Forensic Research Lab."
"One of the blocked VKontakte groups, with nearly half a million subscribers, has been used by Wagner to post job openings and promote the group as an effective fighting force in Ukraine."
"Telegram has been an especially important source of information about events in Ukraine.
But on Saturday, it was full of false information, including on some channels claiming affiliation with the Wagner Group that were managed by Prigozhin supporters. One account, with more than 40,000 subscribers, denied that Prigozhin had reached a deal to halt his march to Moscow, even as others confirmed it. A similar account accused Prigozhin of betraying Russia by retreating."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2023/06/24/internet-russia-wagner-rebellion/

Prigozhin needs time to determine which of his troops defected / deserted, shore up his forces and secure a reliable funding source.

His Russian contracts are no doubt null and void but I'm sure he still has Africa business, propping up dictators and warlords there. What's the Belarus deal - is Lukashenko going to have Wagner try to keep him safe from a coup? LOL.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The good news is that the arguably most effective military unit on the Russian side in Ukraine is effectively neutralized. There's no way that Wagner will reform or be called onto the frontlines now. I'm certain that if Putin ordered Prigozhin into combat that he would refuse the order.

Prigozhin's troops fired upon and shot down some very expensive choppers. That won't be forgiven, which is likely why Roskomnadzor is covering up what happened yesterday. The Russian propagandists need a way to spin the events in a way favorable to Putin.

"Though monitors said the internet as a whole remained broadly functional Saturday evening, Russian government news outlet Tass reported that searches for Wagner leader Yevgeniy Prigozhin on Yandex, Russia’s Google equivalent, yielded notices that some results were hidden in accordance with federal law. The Russian social network VKontakte also blocked content related to Prigozhin, according to the Atlantic Council’s Digital Forensic Research Lab."
"One of the blocked VKontakte groups, with nearly half a million subscribers, has been used by Wagner to post job openings and promote the group as an effective fighting force in Ukraine."
"Telegram has been an especially important source of information about events in Ukraine.
But on Saturday, it was full of false information, including on some channels claiming affiliation with the Wagner Group that were managed by Prigozhin supporters. One account, with more than 40,000 subscribers, denied that Prigozhin had reached a deal to halt his march to Moscow, even as others confirmed it. A similar account accused Prigozhin of betraying Russia by retreating."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2023/06/24/internet-russia-wagner-rebellion/

Prigozhin needs time to determine which of his troops defected / deserted, shore up his forces and secure a reliable funding source.

His Russian contracts are no doubt null and void but I'm sure he still has Africa business, propping up dictators and warlords there. What's the Belarus deal - is Lukashenko going to have Wagner try to keep him safe from a coup? LOL.

Yeah no. Wagner is done. Both Ukraine and Africa can rejoice now.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:UPDATE:

Belarus negotiated Prigozhin’s exile in Belarus. In exchange, all Wagner troops are “supposed” to sign crappy Russian .mil contracts for LESS pay.

And certainly more deadly assignments, as in: suicide missions. Payback is a you know what.

Word is: most Wagner troops are quietly going AWOL and heading home.

Putin did, however, learn who his friends are:

- Kyderov/ Chechen dictator: BEST NUMBER 1 FRIEND!

- Prigozhin: we are never, ever getting back together

- Kazakhstan: we were never really friends anyway

- Russian army: meh

- Belarus: do I have any other choice?

Rostov and most of the rest of Russia: meh

Some videos showed people angry at Wagner for putting their cities in danger of being shelled in order to get rid of them

"Some videos" - Put it in context. The FACT is that in just 24 hours he captured the Southern Military District, traveled unopposed through multiple oblasts and made it all the way inside the border of Moscow Oblast with barely any meaningful resistance whatsoever. Face it, Prigozhin is far more popular with much of Russia's military and internal security apparatus than Putin's guys are.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Those of you hoping for a "coup" or regime change.......

Does it occur to you that regime change might make Russia even worse?
I think Putin is a dangerous dictator, but will people from the Wagner Group be better?

I’m no expert (and some here actually are; I barely follow this stuff) but yes, I know it could be worse. The thing is that Putin is terrible. For two quick examples, his invasion of Ukraine and his treatment of Alexei Navalny.

Also my weakly hoping for Putin to be deposed isn’t really going to move the needle anywhere. I just wish Putin were gone and that some of the promise of democracy that Russia had in the early 90s could be realized.

Russia lived a hungry life under that promise and they won’t forget it. They are completely disillusioned about the West and democracy (didn’t turn out well for them). I don’t think there is any hope now. It will always be some level of autocracy

💯

It’s as if people have no contact or Russian knowledge

There was a good foreign affairs piece recently on how Russia’s future lies to the east.

Russia needs to stop looking west as they have done for 400 years.

The reform Russia needs is to see the east as equals and not through a misguided racial superiority lens — 400 years of chasing European acceptance as been for naught.

Democracy and being a “Western European country” is not for Russia and deep down even the normal Russian person doesn’t want this.

PP you are replying to. I think Russia needs to be pragmatic. They can very well work with the west if they realize that the west is prone to outsmart them, that they will never join the first world club (that they already know actually) and the west is their class enemy. Which does not mean the literal adversary! Just that their interests are exactly the opposite, so they need to keep the diplomacy going . Russia really sucks at diplomacy. There are very few young, westernized diplomats. They also suck at PR and marketing. Pragmatism is the name of the game for them, not trying to fight absolutely stupid wars or make ridiculous demands or even more ridiculous concessions to the west like it was before Putin.

I'm not a politician nor a European/Eurasia/Asia expert by any stretch of the imagination. But sometimes the experts become entrenched with technicalities in their respective specialties. That can lead to thinking that is interesting to contemplate but maybe not too smart.

I don't think Europe has a problem with Russia being part of Europe; I think Europe has a problem with a Russia that is forever governed by maniacs and thugs. Russia's instability threatens what can be a tenuous peace in the rest of Europe. Russian's fall to communism led to communism threatening peace in the rest of Europe. The Russian revolution that overthrew its last czar finally pulled Russia out of a medieval structure, but that change was immediately usurped by yet another oppressive form of government. Subsequently Russia has not had the chance to enjoy the fruits of democracy that most of Europe today takes for granted. That is the problem Europe has with Russia.

Russia would be extraordinarily foolish to look towards the East and China. The racial/cultural/religious/etc divides will never allow Russia to operate on equal footing with that part of the world. John Lennon sang a pretty song, Imagine, but in the real world these differences would be insurmountable. The only thing Russia would achieve would be to become subservient to its Asian overlords.

I'm Eurasian (one european parent, one asian parent). The mixing of cultures works well for some people, PP
Having said that, I agree that since the "West" 's greatest export is democracy, that any nuclear country that is not a democracy threatens its ideals in the most fundamental way.

Russia, which has a ton of antiquated nuclear weapons, is the largest country in the world by far, has been unstable so many times in past 100 years, and has never had a truly democratic government...

... is felt to be an enormous threat by the west. The goal of NATO and associated countries is the long-term democratization of Russia. That's it. It's far-fetched, and perhaps won't happen in our lifetimes, but plenty of goals have been started by humans who knew they wouldn't live to see the final achievement. Notre Dame, the Paris Cathedral, took two centuries to complete. People are preparing to travel to Mars. Humans live in hope.

The U.S.’ greatest exports is weapons. Stop regurgitating DoS talking points that are demonstrably, obviously false on their face. What you call democracy is just hegemony and expansion of global interests, which the US does hesitate to advance with violent means and lies. Just stop.

What arrogance to say that NATO and the US should have any say in how other countries are ran.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The good news is that the arguably most effective military unit on the Russian side in Ukraine is effectively neutralized. There's no way that Wagner will reform or be called onto the frontlines now. I'm certain that if Putin ordered Prigozhin into combat that he would refuse the order.

Prigozhin's troops fired upon and shot down some very expensive choppers. That won't be forgiven, which is likely why Roskomnadzor is covering up what happened yesterday. The Russian propagandists need a way to spin the events in a way favorable to Putin.

"Though monitors said the internet as a whole remained broadly functional Saturday evening, Russian government news outlet Tass reported that searches for Wagner leader Yevgeniy Prigozhin on Yandex, Russia’s Google equivalent, yielded notices that some results were hidden in accordance with federal law. The Russian social network VKontakte also blocked content related to Prigozhin, according to the Atlantic Council’s Digital Forensic Research Lab."
"One of the blocked VKontakte groups, with nearly half a million subscribers, has been used by Wagner to post job openings and promote the group as an effective fighting force in Ukraine."
"Telegram has been an especially important source of information about events in Ukraine.
But on Saturday, it was full of false information, including on some channels claiming affiliation with the Wagner Group that were managed by Prigozhin supporters. One account, with more than 40,000 subscribers, denied that Prigozhin had reached a deal to halt his march to Moscow, even as others confirmed it. A similar account accused Prigozhin of betraying Russia by retreating."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2023/06/24/internet-russia-wagner-rebellion/

Prigozhin needs time to determine which of his troops defected / deserted, shore up his forces and secure a reliable funding source.

His Russian contracts are no doubt null and void but I'm sure he still has Africa business, propping up dictators and warlords there. What's the Belarus deal - is Lukashenko going to have Wagner try to keep him safe from a coup? LOL.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Fabulous news. Can't wait until multiple factions headed by various warlords have access to nukes.

Hey, poster who lives next to the pentagon, still blasé at the nuclear implications of this conflict?

We faced the same thing with the breakup of the Soviet Union, with missiles in so many republics. It's not without risk but we have dealt with this problem before.

DP. Except nobody believes the west and its guarantees anymore

It's so telling that you put all responsibility on the West. Goes to show how far faith in the the post-Soviet Russian confederation has diminished.

Anonymous wrote:The good news is that the arguably most effective military unit on the Russian side in Ukraine is effectively neutralized. There's no way that Wagner will reform or be called onto the frontlines now. I'm certain that if Putin ordered Prigozhin into combat that he would refuse the order.

Prigozhin's troops fired upon and shot down some very expensive choppers. That won't be forgiven, which is likely why Roskomnadzor is covering up what happened yesterday. The Russian propagandists need a way to spin the events in a way favorable to Putin.

"Though monitors said the internet as a whole remained broadly functional Saturday evening, Russian government news outlet Tass reported that searches for Wagner leader Yevgeniy Prigozhin on Yandex, Russia’s Google equivalent, yielded notices that some results were hidden in accordance with federal law. The Russian social network VKontakte also blocked content related to Prigozhin, according to the Atlantic Council’s Digital Forensic Research Lab."
"One of the blocked VKontakte groups, with nearly half a million subscribers, has been used by Wagner to post job openings and promote the group as an effective fighting force in Ukraine."
"Telegram has been an especially important source of information about events in Ukraine.
But on Saturday, it was full of false information, including on some channels claiming affiliation with the Wagner Group that were managed by Prigozhin supporters. One account, with more than 40,000 subscribers, denied that Prigozhin had reached a deal to halt his march to Moscow, even as others confirmed it. A similar account accused Prigozhin of betraying Russia by retreating."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2023/06/24/internet-russia-wagner-rebellion/

Prigozhin needs time to determine which of his troops defected / deserted, shore up his forces and secure a reliable funding source.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There's an old saying, "don't spook the sheep."

Prigozhin did what he set out to do. The sheep are now in motion.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/freaked-russia-shocked-military-coup-121945733.html

You guys really need to read more of Lenin-Marxist theory books on Revolution...

Haha this didn’t age well! They are all back from dachas with their buckwheat by now.
Most didn’t even bother.

+1 so dramatic

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Those of you hoping for a "coup" or regime change.......

Does it occur to you that regime change might make Russia even worse?
I think Putin is a dangerous dictator, but will people from the Wagner Group be better?

I’m no expert (and some here actually are; I barely follow this stuff) but yes, I know it could be worse. The thing is that Putin is terrible. For two quick examples, his invasion of Ukraine and his treatment of Alexei Navalny.

Also my weakly hoping for Putin to be deposed isn’t really going to move the needle anywhere. I just wish Putin were gone and that some of the promise of democracy that Russia had in the early 90s could be realized.

Russia lived a hungry life under that promise and they won’t forget it. They are completely disillusioned about the West and democracy (didn’t turn out well for them). I don’t think there is any hope now. It will always be some level of autocracy

💯

It’s as if people have no contact or Russian knowledge

There was a good foreign affairs piece recently on how Russia’s future lies to the east.

Russia needs to stop looking west as they have done for 400 years.

The reform Russia needs is to see the east as equals and not through a misguided racial superiority lens — 400 years of chasing European acceptance as been for naught.

Democracy and being a “Western European country” is not for Russia and deep down even the normal Russian person doesn’t want this.

PP you are replying to. I think Russia needs to be pragmatic. They can very well work with the west if they realize that the west is prone to outsmart them, that they will never join the first world club (that they already know actually) and the west is their class enemy. Which does not mean the literal adversary! Just that their interests are exactly the opposite, so they need to keep the diplomacy going . Russia really sucks at diplomacy. There are very few young, westernized diplomats. They also suck at PR and marketing. Pragmatism is the name of the game for them, not trying to fight absolutely stupid wars or make ridiculous demands or even more ridiculous concessions to the west like it was before Putin.

I'm not a politician nor a European/Eurasia/Asia expert by any stretch of the imagination. But sometimes the experts become entrenched with technicalities in their respective specialties. That can lead to thinking that is interesting to contemplate but maybe not too smart.

I don't think Europe has a problem with Russia being part of Europe; I think Europe has a problem with a Russia that is forever governed by maniacs and thugs. Russia's instability threatens what can be a tenuous peace in the rest of Europe. Russian's fall to communism led to communism threatening peace in the rest of Europe. The Russian revolution that overthrew its last czar finally pulled Russia out of a medieval structure, but that change was immediately usurped by yet another oppressive form of government. Subsequently Russia has not had the chance to enjoy the fruits of democracy that most of Europe today takes for granted. That is the problem Europe has with Russia.

Russia would be extraordinarily foolish to look towards the East and China. The racial/cultural/religious/etc divides will never allow Russia to operate on equal footing with that part of the world. John Lennon sang a pretty song, Imagine, but in the real world these differences would be insurmountable. The only thing Russia would achieve would be to become subservient to its Asian overlords.

I'm Eurasian (one european parent, one asian parent). The mixing of cultures works well for some people, PP
Having said that, I agree that since the "West" 's greatest export is democracy, that any nuclear country that is not a democracy threatens its ideals in the most fundamental way.

Russia, which has a ton of antiquated nuclear weapons, is the largest country in the world by far, has been unstable so many times in past 100 years, and has never had a truly democratic government...

... is felt to be an enormous threat by the west. The goal of NATO and associated countries is the long-term democratization of Russia. That's it. It's far-fetched, and perhaps won't happen in our lifetimes, but plenty of goals have been started by humans who knew they wouldn't live to see the final achievement. Notre Dame, the Paris Cathedral, took two centuries to complete. People are preparing to travel to Mars. Humans live in hope.