Anonymous wrote:public schools suck with Left

You almost formed a complete thought, have a cookie

Anonymous wrote:With the same logic, it's also unfair that some kids have higher IQ than others. Eventually the only solution that can make you satisfied is to make TJ admission a lottery.

Better nobody studies and nobody works. We all stay at home waiting for the god send us food. As long we study and work, there will be differences. Somebody who's smarter and works harder will have a better performance and therefore it is unfair.

.... that's the opposite of the point here. Admissions exams like the Quant-Q are SUPPOSED to measure, in a sense, IQ and intellectual ability. But there's not much point to exams like it when you have people showing you how to do the problems on the exam.

The point of the exam is to give you problems to solve that you've never seen before and therefore extrapolate your ability to solve OTHER problems you've never seen before, because it's about your ability, not your knowledge. Curie doesn't help with your ability - it helps with your knowledge.

public schools suck with Left

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Anonymous wrote:APA explains it somewhat here:
https://www.apa.org/science/programs/testing/test-security-faq
The reproduction and inclusion of copyrighted test items in scholarly and scientific publications and presentations might not only be a copyright violation but may also undermine test security by potentially placing test items in the public domain, making test takers’ pre-knowledge of test items a major threat to the utility of an instrument. Indeed, it would seem that this concern should not be limited to only copyrighted measures but to any and all tests whose validity would be compromised if test takers had pre-knowledge and could thus "practice" the items.

We are agreed that it is unethical to wrongly obtain the test questions in advance. That does not mean that all preparation is therefore unethical.

Literally no one said that “all preparation is wrong”.

You’ve beat that strawman to death.

Selective outrage, of course. If my kid prepares it is fine. If my righteous indignation can stop the other kid (specifically from a certain race who is walloping my kid), from preparing to make it easier for my kid, I will do that.

Why are you bringing race into it?

I don’t think any parents should prep their kids for cogat or use prior questions for TJ.

That’s why we didn’t do either for our kids.

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Anonymous wrote:I'm glad Youngkin won the election. That means the citizens in this State has suffered too much at the hand of Left. It's the hope that VA could become more reasonable.

Youngkin DGAF about public schools. He was to implement vouchers/charters that will defund public schools.

He just said what the idiots wanted to hear to get elected.

You are wrong about Youngkin but you want to keep posting this nonsense about vouchers over public schools. Why do you keep
Posting this?

Sure, that's why he's stacked the state board of education with charter advocates

Good More charters are needed. At this point TJ should just become a charter, then the best kids can still go and the rest of FCPS will continue to decline because of the idiotic woke policies from the school board.

Yup. Rs just want to destroy public schools.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people think that it's a good idea for a school to have only one type of kid within its walls.

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Anonymous wrote:APA explains it somewhat here:
https://www.apa.org/science/programs/testing/test-security-faq
The reproduction and inclusion of copyrighted test items in scholarly and scientific publications and presentations might not only be a copyright violation but may also undermine test security by potentially placing test items in the public domain, making test takers’ pre-knowledge of test items a major threat to the utility of an instrument. Indeed, it would seem that this concern should not be limited to only copyrighted measures but to any and all tests whose validity would be compromised if test takers had pre-knowledge and could thus "practice" the items.

We are agreed that it is unethical to wrongly obtain the test questions in advance. That does not mean that all preparation is therefore unethical.

Literally no one said that “all preparation is wrong”.

You’ve beat that strawman to death.

Selective outrage, of course. If my kid prepares it is fine. If my righteous indignation can stop the other kid (specifically from a certain race who is walloping my kid), from preparing to make it easier for my kid, I will do that.

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It’s wrong to prepare for some tests. Cogat. The old TJ test.

At the risking of opening up an old can of worms, I've never understood this line of reasoning. Is it better to be unprepared than to be prepared, for anything?

If I'm going to be tested, I want to do as well as I can. Knowing the format of the test and the type of content it addresses seems like an obvious aspect of preparation to undertake. If it's a timed test, then practicing to get a feel for how quickly I need to work also makes sense.

Don't athletes, musicians, actors practice before a tryout? Don't students study before a class exam? Don't job candidates prepare for interviews?

This was exactly my point too. Preparation shows determination, dedication, willingness to learn and grow, and shows the kid will be successful.

How do the kids know to prepare for the cogat or how to do?

Same for TJ - how are they signing up for these prep programs?

Now you're just being silly. Kids also don't know how to improve at sports or a musical instrument - that's why there are coaches and teachers. Kids only know to study for a school exam because the tacher tells them to - is that also unethical? Is it cheating if they study for a test rather than passing based on their own merits?

Why go to school at all? After all, the point is to learn and grow and improve, which sounds just as unethical by your reasoning.

The only kids who are getting prepped for cogat and the old tj test are kids from parents trying to game the system.

It is an unfair advantage for a public school screening test.

If FCPS sent home prep materials to all kids (like they send home study guides for tests), then it’d be fair but they don’t because these tests aren’t designed to be prepped. The questions on the tj test are illegally obtained.

You are obviously willing to go to great lengths to rationalize this cheating. So we can go around and around all day. At the end of the day, most FCPS would agree that it’s cheating. You are an outlier.

DP Why not do the bolded? That's exactly what the authors of the CogAT recommended in areas where prepping is prevalent.
Many kids prep and can't achieve high scores. Many other kids don't prep and still get high scores, including low income kids. I'd prefer a system that at least ensures that a kid is even capable of achieving high scores on a test over one that will admit a lot of kids who wouldn't have been capable of high scores even with prep camps. For TJ, they could simply use PSAT 8/9 as a means to identify capable children, since prep materials are widely available, and many kids can't achieve 98th or 99th percentile scores even with a ton of prep.

I know quite a lot of kids who were admitted to AAP with CogAT scores around 120 *after* the parents prepped the kids. Prepping is not as foolproof as people seem to think.

I guess that levels the playing ground but fundamentally you should prepare for a cognitive assessment.

Has FCPS sent home materials to prepare for the CogAT? We’ve never seen anything.

They haven't, but it is the best solution when some portion of the kids are prepping and another group isn't. If everyone did at least some reasonable amount of prep, the scores and national percentile ranks would be invalid, but the local percentile ranks would be very useful for things like AAP or TJ.

People seem to think that tests are the parts of the application most skewed by privilege. I would argue the exact opposite. People of means hire tutors, so their kids are much more likely to have grades that are inflated. They're more likely to pester the teachers or administration to get their kids' grades bumped up. They're more likely to hire coaches to help them with the essay writing. They're more likely to cheat when the essays are unproctored.

Even with tutoring and prep camps, there's a limit to how much you can boost your scores. If scores were that easily boosted, almost every affluent kid would have a 1500+ SAT. If the middle of the road and lower SES schools provided prep materials and test prep coaching, then the exams would be the most predictive measure of whether a kid is quite bright and belongs at a place like TJ or AAP.

Anonymous wrote:With the same logic, it's also unfair that some kids have higher IQ than others. Eventually the only solution that can make you satisfied is to make TJ admission a lottery.

Better nobody studies and nobody works. We all stay at home waiting for the god send us food. As long we study and work, there will be differences. Somebody who's smarter and works harder will have a better performance and therefore it is unfair.

No. Just don’t prep for certain tests that you shouldn’t prep for.

It’s not that hard.

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It’s wrong to prepare for some tests. Cogat. The old TJ test.

At the risking of opening up an old can of worms, I've never understood this line of reasoning. Is it better to be unprepared than to be prepared, for anything?

If I'm going to be tested, I want to do as well as I can. Knowing the format of the test and the type of content it addresses seems like an obvious aspect of preparation to undertake. If it's a timed test, then practicing to get a feel for how quickly I need to work also makes sense.

Don't athletes, musicians, actors practice before a tryout? Don't students study before a class exam? Don't job candidates prepare for interviews?

This was exactly my point too. Preparation shows determination, dedication, willingness to learn and grow, and shows the kid will be successful.

How do the kids know to prepare for the cogat or how to do?

Same for TJ - how are they signing up for these prep programs?

Now you're just being silly. Kids also don't know how to improve at sports or a musical instrument - that's why there are coaches and teachers. Kids only know to study for a school exam because the tacher tells them to - is that also unethical? Is it cheating if they study for a test rather than passing based on their own merits?

Why go to school at all? After all, the point is to learn and grow and improve, which sounds just as unethical by your reasoning.

You are right but you can't argue with silliness. Wasting your breath.

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Anonymous wrote:APA explains it somewhat here:
https://www.apa.org/science/programs/testing/test-security-faq
The reproduction and inclusion of copyrighted test items in scholarly and scientific publications and presentations might not only be a copyright violation but may also undermine test security by potentially placing test items in the public domain, making test takers’ pre-knowledge of test items a major threat to the utility of an instrument. Indeed, it would seem that this concern should not be limited to only copyrighted measures but to any and all tests whose validity would be compromised if test takers had pre-knowledge and could thus "practice" the items.

We are agreed that it is unethical to wrongly obtain the test questions in advance. That does not mean that all preparation is therefore unethical.

Literally no one said that “all preparation is wrong”.

You’ve beat that strawman to death.

With the same logic, it's also unfair that some kids have higher IQ than others. Eventually the only solution that can make you satisfied is to make TJ admission a lottery.

Better nobody studies and nobody works. We all stay at home waiting for the god send us food. As long we study and work, there will be differences. Somebody who's smarter and works harder will have a better performance and therefore it is unfair.

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Anonymous wrote:Does anyone know many points was saying yes to FARMS worth?

90 points

How many total possible points?

Not sure what it means? I think they just added 90 points to total

How many points were the other components worth? GPA. Essays etc

300 GPA, 300 SPS, 300 Math/Science test. up to 225 additional experience points of which meals was 90.

Stop lying on these threads. GPA is only worth 37.5 points, with a minimum possible value of 262.5 through a maximum of 300. The meals bonus was worth over twice as many points as the entire span from a 3.5 GPA through a 4.0.

Huh?

According to the rubric that was made public as part of discovery during the ongoing lawsuit, the score for GPA is 75 * GPA.

Since there is a 3.5 minimum GPA required to be eligible to apply and a 4.0 maximum GPA based on how it was calculated for the purposes of the application, every student will have. GPA score between 362.5 and 400.

As such, the maximum difference in terms of GPA between any two applicants is 400 - 362.5 = 37.5.

To say that GPA is worth 300 points, while strictly true, is misleading, since every applicant earns at least 362.5 of those points.

Since the experience factors are worth either 45 or 90 points each, that means that a 3.5 GPA combined with any experience factor outweighs a 4.0 GPA with no experience factors. In other words, the experience factors are extremely valuable.

Not that valuable. Only 12% of total possible score.

Almost irrelevant since almost everyone accepted had 4.0.

The high-point components of the application are:
300 for the SPS
300 for the math/science essay

They comprise the vast majority of the applicant’s score. If a kid didn’t get in, they probably didn’t write an exceptional essay or portrait.

The essay was apparently very easy and most of the portrait has nothing to do with STEM

The whole thing was/is a disaster.

According to my kid, very few of the students who were expected to get in actually got in i.e., majority of the kids who are generally known to be smart, stood out in the class, perfect or almost perfect GPA, took advantage (and did well) of STEM electives offered by the school, participated in school offered STEM after-school activities etc didn't get admission, but some random and unexpected kids, few of them even had B's got admissions, which surprised many of his peers. He was initially disappointed to be wait listed, but after learning who else got wait listed (and who actually got admissions..lol), he felt TJ doesn't really matter anymore. Well, my kid isn't good at creative writing, which he knows, so its not totally unexpected and as we know GPA doesn't really carry that much weightage compared to portrait sheet and science essay. He was hoping TJ will look into his electives and how well he did in all the courses (as FCPS has whole course work in hand) and consider the after school activities (even if only school based activities are considered), but it didn't really matter at the end (TJ probably didn't look into any of this). Anyways.. this is is how the TJ cohort is going to look like going forward and I doubt anyone realizes a drop in standards and competitiveness any time soon.

There was no reason to think that anyone would look at anything other then what the application called for. Your child should have been able to write a solid essay. It was a part of the application.

Yes, I am not denying what you said. If TJ is not a STEM focussed school, but a general selective school, then I agree that creating writing is very important. But do you think creating writing should be more important for STEM magnet school like TJ than actual activities that demonstrates the the interest in STEM? As many others have noted earlier in this thread there is only 37.5 points diff for min GPA of 3.5 and 4.0. Where as portrait sheet carries 300 points (or 60 points for each question) and 300 points for a single science/math essay (note: this is not really math, but just an essay explaining your point). Nothing else is taked into consideration and no input from teachers. If you are convinced that this is an ideal process to screen the kids for school like TJ, then you will be happy. Those of who think grades and STEM needs to have more weight will be unhappy. Thats all I am trying to convey here. My kid is done here and any changes in future will not help my kid. I am just concerned about future direction of TJ.

It is not ideal but I don't know what ideal looks like. I do think that there should be a requirement that kids complete Geometry and Algebra by the end of 8th grade. But I don't think that they can include after school activities unless those are available to students at each of the MS. And I have no problem with the 1.5% coming from each MS because I do think that there needs to be an effort to have slots available for all the MS and not just the ones were there are extra programs and parents can afford extra activities. This does mean that there are going to be fewer kids from the AAP Centers.

TJ is a high school that focuses on STEM. The kids need to be able to do more then just STEM. Your child has great grades, he should have been able to write a solid essay. I don't know what the topics were but I imagine they required kids to discuss why they like STEM, that should not have been a tall order. People consistently post about how active the kids are in drama and music and debate and other activities that are not STEM based, which is great.

Well, every school offers after school activities. Though you can't compare kid from one school against other, you should absolutely use them to compare the kids from the same school. Also, pretty much all the MS offer similar elective with few differences and every kid has an equal opportunity to enroll in them and you can at least use them to compare kids with in same middle school.

You are basically assuming that every kid who is good at STEM should be able to write well. This is not necessarily true. Not everyone can write effectively. For example, growing up, I have always struggled with writing, didn't score well in languages, but more than made up with stem courses and eventually did phd in engineering. Fortunately my college admission(s) weren't denied based on my poor essays. To give an another example, my older kid is really good with math/science/computers etc. and often surprises me with the thought process, but is kind of shy and not really great at putting thoughts into a well organized essay. My younger kid, who has always been good with languages and loves writing, but not really good/interested in math or science, can produce a much better science essay with little research, which is so well organized that is easy to read.

Anyways, I don't mind essays if GPA carries (and other academics) 80% weight and essays carry something like 20% weight. But in this case its quite the opposite. Essays essentially determine if your kid goes into TJ or not. This is more obvious AAP center schools. In my opinion, schools like TJ shouldn't rely so much on how well some can write.

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Anonymous wrote:Does anyone know many points was saying yes to FARMS worth?

90 points

How many total possible points?

Not sure what it means? I think they just added 90 points to total

How many points were the other components worth? GPA. Essays etc

300 GPA, 300 SPS, 300 Math/Science test. up to 225 additional experience points of which meals was 90.

Stop lying on these threads. GPA is only worth 37.5 points, with a minimum possible value of 262.5 through a maximum of 300. The meals bonus was worth over twice as many points as the entire span from a 3.5 GPA through a 4.0.

Huh?

According to the rubric that was made public as part of discovery during the ongoing lawsuit, the score for GPA is 75 * GPA.

Since there is a 3.5 minimum GPA required to be eligible to apply and a 4.0 maximum GPA based on how it was calculated for the purposes of the application, every student will have. GPA score between 362.5 and 400.

As such, the maximum difference in terms of GPA between any two applicants is 400 - 362.5 = 37.5.

To say that GPA is worth 300 points, while strictly true, is misleading, since every applicant earns at least 362.5 of those points.

Since the experience factors are worth either 45 or 90 points each, that means that a 3.5 GPA combined with any experience factor outweighs a 4.0 GPA with no experience factors. In other words, the experience factors are extremely valuable.

Not that valuable. Only 12% of total possible score.

Almost irrelevant since almost everyone accepted had 4.0.

The high-point components of the application are:
300 for the SPS
300 for the math/science essay

They comprise the vast majority of the applicant’s score. If a kid didn’t get in, they probably didn’t write an exceptional essay or portrait.

The essay was apparently very easy and most of the portrait has nothing to do with STEM

The whole thing was/is a disaster.

According to my kid, very few of the students who were expected to get in actually got in i.e., majority of the kids who are generally known to be smart, stood out in the class, perfect or almost perfect GPA, took advantage (and did well) of STEM electives offered by the school, participated in school offered STEM after-school activities etc didn't get admission, but some random and unexpected kids, few of them even had B's got admissions, which surprised many of his peers. He was initially disappointed to be wait listed, but after learning who else got wait listed (and who actually got admissions..lol), he felt TJ doesn't really matter anymore. Well, my kid isn't good at creative writing, which he knows, so its not totally unexpected and as we know GPA doesn't really carry that much weightage compared to portrait sheet and science essay. He was hoping TJ will look into his electives and how well he did in all the courses (as FCPS has whole course work in hand) and consider the after school activities (even if only school based activities are considered), but it didn't really matter at the end (TJ probably didn't look into any of this). Anyways.. this is is how the TJ cohort is going to look like going forward and I doubt anyone realizes a drop in standards and competitiveness any time soon.

There will be two more TJ classes admitted under the merit-based system, and given the lag during which test scores are accumulated and normalized across states, it will likely take another five years before TJ starts getting downgraded by publications like US News.

In the interim, look for FCPS to publicize every instance in which TJ continues to be highly rated as if it confirms they did something right by changing the admissions process, even though these ratings will be based on the performance of students admitted before the change.

An increasing percentage of the highest achieving kids with the most STEM aptitude will decide to stay at their base schools, and TJ will become an above-average school that provides a better education to kids who'd otherwise be attending Annandale, Justice, Lewis, Mount Vernon, etc. And those schools, conversely, could end up declining further if a greater number of kids who otherwise might have been role models at those schools, even if not really viable candidates for admission to TJ under the old merit-based system, end up at TJ instead.

Does FCPS frequently publicize TJ rankings? I haven’t noticed that.

https://www.fcps.edu/news/fcps-high-schools-ranked-among-best-virginia-and-nation-us-news-and-world-report

Ok. So a press release when the rankings came out. And?

You said you hadn't noticed that FCPS publicized TJ rankings and PP provides an example from last month. Go find something else to argue about.

For PP to comment on it I thought there’d be more than one generic press releases after the rankings came out. Weird.

Anonymous wrote:APA explains it somewhat here:
https://www.apa.org/science/programs/testing/test-security-faq
The reproduction and inclusion of copyrighted test items in scholarly and scientific publications and presentations might not only be a copyright violation but may also undermine test security by potentially placing test items in the public domain, making test takers’ pre-knowledge of test items a major threat to the utility of an instrument. Indeed, it would seem that this concern should not be limited to only copyrighted measures but to any and all tests whose validity would be compromised if test takers had pre-knowledge and could thus "practice" the items.

This is exactly the point. The Quant-Q is a test of native problem solving ability and derives the entirety of its utility from evaluating how a student approaches a problem that they've never seen before - and whether or not they have the ability to quickly and efficiently analyze and solve a problem. The adult version of the exam is used most frequently to determine suitability for cybersecurity and intense programming challenges.

If a student walks into the Quant-Q having seen all of its different types of problems before, it's not only useless as an instrument for determining a student's native problem solving ability - it's HARMFUL to the student population by selecting the wrong students.

It is no accident that in the first year of the Quant-Q's usage for TJ Admissions, the percentage of the TJ cohort that was Asian plummeted from 74.9% (c/o 2021) to 65.2% (c/o 2022) before recovering in the following two years. There were wide reports of students exiting the various TJ exam sites for the Class of 2022 looking completely dumbfounded, with some even crying to their parents that they had no idea to do the problems.

It's also no surprise that Curie's share of TJ offers went from 50 in the first year to 98 to 133 before the changes to the admissions process, given that TJ students have already admitted to having seen some of the EXACT questions on the exam in the class of 2023 and 2024 through their work at Curie.