Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Imani Gandy needs better friends or something. She is coming across poorly not only in terms of character but as far as legal and other analysis. Yikes.

Like all the others with the wrong take that Sonya is the victim, she hurls a grenade and announces she'll be muting the thread. I think the content doesn't matter to some people. They know they can mine the outrage for clicks and a few new followers and people will eventually forget. Except there are a number of people (me included) who are completely obsessed with the story so there might be some backlash.

I also think part of what is happening is that this story was (smartly) spun by Larson and Ng as a white woman weaponizing her feelings to attack a woman of color, and lots of prominent women of color are understandably triggered by that narrative. Even though it's not accurate in this situation, it is something that happens a lot, and so without really investigating the truth or details of this situation, people link Gandy and Gay and others are throwing their support behind Larson simply because this sounds like something they have experienced before.

In fact, in Gay's case, I think she has doubled down because her initial support for Larson apparently led some people to write her directly with complaints about that support. And she hates stuff like that because she somewhat famously does not like it when people take issue with her Twitter opinions because she doesn't think she should have to answer for everything she says on Twitter. Which I generally kind of agree with -- it must be be exhausting to be a prominent black, gay, woman and have people constantly asking you to justify everything you say.

So Gay sees people coming after her yet again about one of her Twitter opinions and views it the way she has before -- as white people needing to tell her what to think, at least in part due to racist/sexist/homophobic feelings they might not even be willing to admit to themselves. I mean, I've experienced those same things over and over again so I am sympathetic and can only imagine it's much worse for someone with a prominent voice.

But in this case they are wrong. It makes me frustrated with them for wading into a debate they don't really have the details on, but it makes me actively angry at Larson and Ng for turning this into a conversation about race when it very much was not. There is zero evidence that Dorland actually is some kind of white savior character who weaponizes her emotions against POC. If that's something that has happened in the past I'd want to know about it, but I see no evidence of it in this situation. But people are giving Larson/Ng the benefit of the doubt because they are painting the situation with that brush and to me it's unconscionable. Do they not understand the damage this will do to the next WOC who deals with an actual, not imagined, example of white saviorism or a white woman weaponizing her feelings? These arguments are already viewed suspiciously by many and Larson/Ng are just making them harder to make in the future. I hate saying this but it really feels like they are weaponizing their race to win a petty interpersonal spat, and particularly when you know that Larson is white passing and most of the Chunky Monkeys are white, it starts to feel really really gross to me.

Not to let people like Gandy and Gay off the hook -- they are responsible for their actions. But wow has Ng, in particular, pulled them down this road under false pretenses. If the tide turns I think many of these folks are going to be mad at Ng because I'm betting many of them accepted Larson's story at face value because Ng was vouching for it and they viewed her as someone on their level who understood their concerns. Instead she manipulated those concerns for her own benefit. Yuck yuck yuck.

Yes to this 100%

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ugh, I'm continuing to see more bluechecks/influential Tweeters aggressively standing their ground in making this a race issue, and making Dawn the villain in this, and as a POC it makes me genuinely a little... disoriented? Like, am I a racist for not agreeing with these takes? Am I not as liberal or as progressive as I thought? I feel like I'm going crazy.

Anyone.in particular?

This entire thread (+ more, if you go to her feed):

I'm just like... Sonya is the one who literally hid behind POC by changing her Twitter header photo days before the article dropped? And the group chat that you so identify with is literally filled with white people...? IDK it all feels so off-base to me.

Anonymous wrote:Ugh, I'm continuing to see more bluechecks/influential Tweeters aggressively standing their ground in making this a race issue, and making Dawn the villain in this, and as a POC it makes me genuinely a little... disoriented? Like, am I a racist for not agreeing with these takes? Am I not as liberal or as progressive as I thought? I feel like I'm going crazy.

Anonymous wrote:The group texts made me think of this essay by CS Lewis:

https://www.lewissociety.org/innerring/

shan1212 wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Imani Gandy needs better friends or something. She is coming across poorly not only in terms of character but as far as legal and other analysis. Yikes.

Like all the others with the wrong take that Sonya is the victim, she hurls a grenade and announces she'll be muting the thread. I think the content doesn't matter to some people. They know they can mine the outrage for clicks and a few new followers and people will eventually forget. Except there are a number of people (me included) who are completely obsessed with the story so there might be some backlash.

I can give Imani a pass because Sonya purposely framed it as a white woman oppressing a WOC; she has a right to be triggered by that. Should she do more research? Sure, but anyone can say anything on Twitter. I stopped following her because she tweets so much, lol. She has over half a million tweets! So I didn't see this.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Imani Gandy needs better friends or something. She is coming across poorly not only in terms of character but as far as legal and other analysis. Yikes.

Like all the others with the wrong take that Sonya is the victim, she hurls a grenade and announces she'll be muting the thread. I think the content doesn't matter to some people. They know they can mine the outrage for clicks and a few new followers and people will eventually forget. Except there are a number of people (me included) who are completely obsessed with the story so there might be some backlash.

I also think part of what is happening is that this story was (smartly) spun by Larson and Ng as a white woman weaponizing her feelings to attack a woman of color, and lots of prominent women of color are understandably triggered by that narrative. Even though it's not accurate in this situation, it is something that happens a lot, and so without really investigating the truth or details of this situation, people link Gandy and Gay and others are throwing their support behind Larson simply because this sounds like something they have experienced before.

In fact, in Gay's case, I think she has doubled down because her initial support for Larson apparently led some people to write her directly with complaints about that support. And she hates stuff like that because she somewhat famously does not like it when people take issue with her Twitter opinions because she doesn't think she should have to answer for everything she says on Twitter. Which I generally kind of agree with -- it must be be exhausting to be a prominent black, gay, woman and have people constantly asking you to justify everything you say.

So Gay sees people coming after her yet again about one of her Twitter opinions and views it the way she has before -- as white people needing to tell her what to think, at least in part due to racist/sexist/homophobic feelings they might not even be willing to admit to themselves. I mean, I've experienced those same things over and over again so I am sympathetic and can only imagine it's much worse for someone with a prominent voice.

But in this case they are wrong. It makes me frustrated with them for wading into a debate they don't really have the details on, but it makes me actively angry at Larson and Ng for turning this into a conversation about race when it very much was not. There is zero evidence that Dorland actually is some kind of white savior character who weaponizes her emotions against POC. If that's something that has happened in the past I'd want to know about it, but I see no evidence of it in this situation. But people are giving Larson/Ng the benefit of the doubt because they are painting the situation with that brush and to me it's unconscionable. Do they not understand the damage this will do to the next WOC who deals with an actual, not imagined, example of white saviorism or a white woman weaponizing her feelings? These arguments are already viewed suspiciously by many and Larson/Ng are just making them harder to make in the future. I hate saying this but it really feels like they are weaponizing their race to win a petty interpersonal spat, and particularly when you know that Larson is white passing and most of the Chunky Monkeys are white, it starts to feel really really gross to me.

Not to let people like Gandy and Gay off the hook -- they are responsible for their actions. But wow has Ng, in particular, pulled them down this road under false pretenses. If the tide turns I think many of these folks are going to be mad at Ng because I'm betting many of them accepted Larson's story at face value because Ng was vouching for it and they viewed her as someone on their level who understood their concerns. Instead she manipulated those concerns for her own benefit. Yuck yuck yuck.

shan1212 wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Imani Gandy needs better friends or something. She is coming across poorly not only in terms of character but as far as legal and other analysis. Yikes.

Like all the others with the wrong take that Sonya is the victim, she hurls a grenade and announces she'll be muting the thread. I think the content doesn't matter to some people. They know they can mine the outrage for clicks and a few new followers and people will eventually forget. Except there are a number of people (me included) who are completely obsessed with the story so there might be some backlash.

I can give Imani a pass because Sonya purposely framed it as a white woman oppressing a WOC; she has a right to be triggered by that. Should she do more research? Sure, but anyone can say anything on Twitter. I stopped following her because she tweets so much, lol. She has over half a million tweets! So I didn't see this.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Imani Gandy needs better friends or something. She is coming across poorly not only in terms of character but as far as legal and other analysis. Yikes.

Like all the others with the wrong take that Sonya is the victim, she hurls a grenade and announces she'll be muting the thread. I think the content doesn't matter to some people. They know they can mine the outrage for clicks and a few new followers and people will eventually forget. Except there are a number of people (me included) who are completely obsessed with the story so there might be some backlash.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Imani Gandy needs better friends or something. She is coming across poorly not only in terms of character but as far as legal and other analysis. Yikes.

Like all the others with the wrong take that Sonya is the victim, she hurls a grenade and announces she'll be muting the thread. I think the content doesn't matter to some people. They know they can mine the outrage for clicks and a few new followers and people will eventually forget. Except there are a number of people (me included) who are completely obsessed with the story so there might be some backlash.

Anonymous wrote:Imani Gandy needs better friends or something. She is coming across poorly not only in terms of character but as far as legal and other analysis. Yikes.

Anonymous wrote:

shan1212 wrote:A Chunky Monkey, Becky Tuch, apologizes and announces she has left the group: https://twitter.com/BeckyLTuch/status/1447603792804032512

I feel like some of her tweets are contradictory:
"I want to say on record that I always loved this story. I was proud of Sonya for writing it, thrilled to see it getting recognition I felt it deserved."
"I did not participate in any discussion of this story, until it was finally published."
"My understanding of the legal issues was superficial."
"Everything I have ever said to her in email or elsewhere was with the understanding that I was supporting my wonderful and talented friend through a truly awful situation."I owe Dawn Dorland an apology. I’m sorry for the role I played here. I’m sorry I didn’t make a greater attempt to learn her side of the story. And most of all, I am sorry I did not intervene to de-fuse a situation that I believe did not have to come to this."

So did she leave in 2013 and have no knowledge of the story or was she involved and supporting this all along? Now I want to search documents for her.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just wanted to chime in that you don't need an MFA to be a writer, and you definitely don't need one to write. You don't need acceptance and approval from the MFA crowd either. Most of the stories I write are largely to amuse myself or because I think readers I know will like them. That's enough for me. If an editor or writing instructor has nice things to say about it, that's really lovely! If they don't, oh well. The story exists whether they like it or not. I have a bunch of unpublished stories and poems and if they never find a published home, I like the idea that my daughter will someday be able to look at them if she wants. Same with my novel draft.

Anyway, I would also recommend Barrelhouse as a good source for virtual classes. They also do some conferences and camps which I've never been able to participate in but have heard are good. It's an indie press but they embrace a lot of work that kind of spans genres and forms. Everyone I've met there has been exceedingly down to earth and not even remotely hung up on whether you have an MFA or where you've been published before.

I've also taken classes with the Writer's Center and there's some overlap in their instructors and community. The more time you spend in the writing/publishing world the more you find this -- you run into the same people over and over again different places. Another reason why I find it extra weird the Chunky Monkeys decided to go after Dorland and turn her into an enemy (when they could have just ignored her!). It's a small world and you have to learn that if someone is not your cup of tea, you can just stay polite and pleasant and avoid them when necessary. Turning it into some kind of fight to the death won't work out well for anyone.

Would you recommend a beginner start with short story or jump into novel right away? I have a lot of experience with professional writing (lawyer) but have not done fiction since college. I enjoyed fiction and was told I was good, but I have not pursued it at all in decades.

I would personally start with some short fiction and see if you can get a couple short stories into good shape before starting a novel. Short stories are a great way to learn craft and experiment, to get better at specific elements of fiction, to get your craft in shape for longer projects. But I also don’t think that means you have to wait to attempt a novel! I have gotten a lot out of some failed novel writing efforts during nanowrimo or 1000 Words of Summer. Letting yourself be ambitious and see what happens can force you to stretch your legs and learn a ton. I would just start with a short fiction class because I think it will give you a better overview of fiction writing than a novel-focused class will.

You also might discover you do better in one form or another. I am a better novelist than a short fiction writer. But I get something out of writing both. It’s also really nice when you are struggling with a project to be able to take a break and work in another form. Take a novel break and write flash. Set down your short story and write some poetry. There are no ties snd honestly whatever gets words on paper is a win in my book.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ugh, I'm continuing to see more bluechecks/influential Tweeters aggressively standing their ground in making this a race issue, and making Dawn the villain in this, and as a POC it makes me genuinely a little... disoriented? Like, am I a racist for not agreeing with these takes? Am I not as liberal or as progressive as I thought? I feel like I'm going crazy.

Anyone.in particular?

This entire thread (+ more, if you go to her feed):

I'm just like... Sonya is the one who literally hid behind POC by changing her Twitter header photo days before the article dropped? And the group chat that you so identify with is literally filled with white people...? IDK it all feels so off-base to me.