Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:People are making too much of this order. I am no Trump supporter and I think it’s stupid that the court is even entertaining this process, but I was surprised that Dearie ordered Trump’s team to provide all of its objections to the accuracy of the inventory without having seen the documents themselves. If an entry says something like “357 government documents/photos without classification markings” but provides no further description even of where they were found within Trump’s office, how are they supposed to determine whether those are all documents they believe were taken from his office, or what, if anything, might be missing from the inventory list? At some point Trump will need to take a position on these issues if he’s going to file a 41(g) motion for return of his property, but this does not seem like the appropriate point to require him to do so.

Sounds like you are saying Trump did not take careful notation of what he had. They had boxes stuffed with government documents as well as his own things and no one on his staff had inventoried them? Yikes. Not good records keeping.

Do you keep a written inventory of every news clipping (or comparable piece of paper) in your house to know whether you had 88 or 89. The verification process is not just about the classified documents. I mean, that’s what actually important here and likely why Trump started this process, but Rule 41(g) isn’t about classified documents, it’s about return of property, and the court needs to treat it that way regardless of Trump’s ulterior motives.

I'm a records manager and if I were working for a president who took boxes from the Oval Office you bet your sweet @ss I'd have those boxes inventoried. Yes, if a president has professionals on his staff they should know to inventory everything.

We're not talking about some no-name dude sitting in his own home with a pile of paper of no interest to anyone else.

Trump isn't the president anymore.

What exactly is your point?

Why do you assume that Trump, as a former president, is working closely with a records manager at Mar-a-Lago to document every newspaper clipping he shoves in a drawer?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People are making too much of this order. I am no Trump supporter and I think it’s stupid that the court is even entertaining this process, but I was surprised that Dearie ordered Trump’s team to provide all of its objections to the accuracy of the inventory without having seen the documents themselves. If an entry says something like “357 government documents/photos without classification markings” but provides no further description even of where they were found within Trump’s office, how are they supposed to determine whether those are all documents they believe were taken from his office, or what, if anything, might be missing from the inventory list? At some point Trump will need to take a position on these issues if he’s going to file a 41(g) motion for return of his property, but this does not seem like the appropriate point to require him to do so.

Sounds like you are saying Trump did not take careful notation of what he had. They had boxes stuffed with government documents as well as his own things and no one on his staff had inventoried them? Yikes. Not good records keeping.

Do you keep a written inventory of every news clipping (or comparable piece of paper) in your house to know whether you had 88 or 89. The verification process is not just about the classified documents. I mean, that’s what actually important here and likely why Trump started this process, but Rule 41(g) isn’t about classified documents, it’s about return of property, and the court needs to treat it that way regardless of Trump’s ulterior motives.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:More generally, I think it’s important to remember what this proceeding is about. It’s not a criminal proceeding, it’s about seeking the return of his own property that was seized, and asserting any appropriate privileges. Let’s say among the 88 news articles found in one part of his office, Trump knows there is an article about the Yankees signed by Aaron Judge. He really wants that back. But without seeing what’s there, how can he know that it includes his Aaron Judge article? If he doesn’t assert now that it’s missing and it turns out it’s not there because an agent stole it to sell on eBay, will Trump have waived the right to claim it is missing if he doesn’t assert that argument now, before his team sees the documents?

Again, not saying this happened. I have no reason to believe it did. But these are legitimate reasons why Dearie’s process seems problematic.

Exactly. This is not a criminal proceeding - the government first asked nicely for the return of their property and then, when that didn't work, went and got it. When they realized exactly what Trump had kept, it started to get closer to a criminal proceeding - but it didn't start out that way. And btw, Trump's lousy lawyers never properly served the government or even properly filed a complaint? motion? or whatever for this, they just made something up and Judge Cannon indulged them.

DP. You are conflating Cannon's conduct with Dearie's conduct. Cannon's handling of the matter is highly problematic; I won't deny that. But Cannon has delegated specific responsibilities to Dearie and he has to carry them out appropriately or there will be easy grounds for Cannon to ignore his recommendations later. Given the responsibilities delegated and framework set out by Cannon for the special master review, there is zero reason Dearie needs to have Trump's verification before his team can review the documents (because remember, the classified documents are not out of the process). Moreover, nothing in Cannon's appointing order gave Dearie authority to declare that this preliminary verification would be Trump's "final opportunity to raise any factual dispute as to the completeness and accuracy of the Detailed Property Inventory."

Going back to the hypotheticals set forth above, let's say Trump knows he had X number of government documents in a particular drawer, and that is the same number of documents listed in the inventory. He would have no basis to dispute the accuracy and completeness of the inventory, right? But then what happens if, during the review, Trump's team discovers a document that they do not believe was in that drawer, and then also contends that a different document was in the drawer but is not in that set of the produced documents? Can Trump dispute the accuracy of the inventory at that point, or has that ship sailed because he didn't dispute something he did could not have known was up for dispute at the time of his "final opportunity" to raise the issue?

I know someone's first impulse will be to respond that Trump having any government documents is problematic, and I will not dispute that. But for purposes of any future proceedings, including criminal proceedings, which specific documents Trump had may be critically important. So let's set that argument aside for right now.

Moreover, Dearie has not articulated a reason why he needs to proceed in this order and make the verification now rather than after the parties have reviewed the documents. No matter what Dearie might determine now on verification, he still has to allow Trump's team access to all of the seized materials (other than the classified documents) for the privilege review. It does make sense for Dearie to give Trump's team an opportunity to raise any obvious issues with the inventory now because there may be efficiencies to resolving those upfront (particularly if Trump can tell now that something is missing from the inventory), but there is no reason for Dearie to make this Trump's last opportunity to raise those kinds of issues.

The whole process is clearly bullshit, but that makes it all the more important for Dearie to carry out his responsibilities appropriately so that he does not give easy grounds for Cannon to rejects his recommendations and then make it hard for the 11th Circuit to find she abused her discretion in doing so.

That's all well and good, but the 11th Circuit panel said that Cannon has no jurisdiction over any of this. They didn't order her to dismiss the case because that request wasn't before them, but she has a duty to assess her own jurisdiction. This case should be gone and her refusal to do that demonstrates everything she does is in bad faith.

And that's all well and good too, but until the full appeal is decided, the district court case is moving forward and Dearie needs to make sure he crosses his t's and dots his i's in case the appeal does not turn out the way we think it should.

I don't understand that. Whether Dearie does or doesn't dot his i's is pretty irrelevant. She's not going to adopt any of his recommendations that Trump opposes. And if DOJ has to appeal, it will be Cannon's decisions, not Dearie's, that will be subject to the appeal.

But the panel already ruled on jurisdiction. They specifically went through each of the Richey factors and said that "none of the Richey factors favor exercising equitable jurisdiction over this case. Consequently, the United States is likely to succeed in showing the district court abused its discretion in exercising equitable jurisdiction over Plaintiff's motion." All of the recommendations and decisions will be thrown out and this will have been a waste of time and money.

Anonymous wrote:The 43 empty folders marked "Classified" are extremely worrying. Where are their contents?

And what of the empty folders labeled "Return to Staff Secretary/Military Aide"?

Could those empty folders have contained classified documents?

What does that label mean?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:More generally, I think it’s important to remember what this proceeding is about. It’s not a criminal proceeding, it’s about seeking the return of his own property that was seized, and asserting any appropriate privileges. Let’s say among the 88 news articles found in one part of his office, Trump knows there is an article about the Yankees signed by Aaron Judge. He really wants that back. But without seeing what’s there, how can he know that it includes his Aaron Judge article? If he doesn’t assert now that it’s missing and it turns out it’s not there because an agent stole it to sell on eBay, will Trump have waived the right to claim it is missing if he doesn’t assert that argument now, before his team sees the documents?

Again, not saying this happened. I have no reason to believe it did. But these are legitimate reasons why Dearie’s process seems problematic.

Exactly. This is not a criminal proceeding - the government first asked nicely for the return of their property and then, when that didn't work, went and got it. When they realized exactly what Trump had kept, it started to get closer to a criminal proceeding - but it didn't start out that way. And btw, Trump's lousy lawyers never properly served the government or even properly filed a complaint? motion? or whatever for this, they just made something up and Judge Cannon indulged them.

DP. You are conflating Cannon's conduct with Dearie's conduct. Cannon's handling of the matter is highly problematic; I won't deny that. But Cannon has delegated specific responsibilities to Dearie and he has to carry them out appropriately or there will be easy grounds for Cannon to ignore his recommendations later. Given the responsibilities delegated and framework set out by Cannon for the special master review, there is zero reason Dearie needs to have Trump's verification before his team can review the documents (because remember, the classified documents are not out of the process). Moreover, nothing in Cannon's appointing order gave Dearie authority to declare that this preliminary verification would be Trump's "final opportunity to raise any factual dispute as to the completeness and accuracy of the Detailed Property Inventory."

Going back to the hypotheticals set forth above, let's say Trump knows he had X number of government documents in a particular drawer, and that is the same number of documents listed in the inventory. He would have no basis to dispute the accuracy and completeness of the inventory, right? But then what happens if, during the review, Trump's team discovers a document that they do not believe was in that drawer, and then also contends that a different document was in the drawer but is not in that set of the produced documents? Can Trump dispute the accuracy of the inventory at that point, or has that ship sailed because he didn't dispute something he did could not have known was up for dispute at the time of his "final opportunity" to raise the issue?

I know someone's first impulse will be to respond that Trump having any government documents is problematic, and I will not dispute that. But for purposes of any future proceedings, including criminal proceedings, which specific documents Trump had may be critically important. So let's set that argument aside for right now.

Moreover, Dearie has not articulated a reason why he needs to proceed in this order and make the verification now rather than after the parties have reviewed the documents. No matter what Dearie might determine now on verification, he still has to allow Trump's team access to all of the seized materials (other than the classified documents) for the privilege review. It does make sense for Dearie to give Trump's team an opportunity to raise any obvious issues with the inventory now because there may be efficiencies to resolving those upfront (particularly if Trump can tell now that something is missing from the inventory), but there is no reason for Dearie to make this Trump's last opportunity to raise those kinds of issues.

The whole process is clearly bullshit, but that makes it all the more important for Dearie to carry out his responsibilities appropriately so that he does not give easy grounds for Cannon to rejects his recommendations and then make it hard for the 11th Circuit to find she abused her discretion in doing so.

You assert: "there is zero reason Dearie needs to have Trump's verification before his team can review the documents" -- Dearie doesn't ask for anything Trump could say today. The back and forth verifications (first DOJ said this is an accurate list, then Trump disputes the accuracy of the list, then DOJ responds to the disputed allegations) is only about DOJ's list. After DOJ affirms that the detailed list of docs they seized is accurate, Trump is supposed to say three things about that list:

- list specific items set forth in the Detailed Property Inventory that Trump asserts were not seized from the Premises on August 8, 2022. He can do this without reviewing the boxes -- "Hey they said a copy of a pee pee tape was seized.. I dispute that I had a copy of it." If he claims items on the list were "planted," he doesn't need to see them to allege it.

-- list specific items set forth in the Detailed Property Inventory that Trump asserts were seized from the Premises on August 8, 2022, but as to which Plaintiff asserts that the Detailed Property Inventory’s description of contents or location within the Premises where the item was found is incorrect. Again, the list is detailed and Trump doesn't need to see the docs themselves to assert that they were in a different location than the government claims (seeing them now wouldn't help with that anyway) or that they are incorrectly identified.

-- list and describe any item that Trump asserts was seized from the Premises on August 8, 2022, but is not listed in the Detailed Property Inventory. Again, only he/his team can know this and seeing the docs they list as opposed to the list, doesn't change that. Remember, this is only a certification about the list itself.

Finally, any verification can and usually does contain qualifiers about late discovered evidence. This is pro forma discovery matter.

Designations and disputes about various individual documents was all to be AFTER the docs were bates stamped and reviewed by all parties. Trump stalled that part, making the rest of the process impossible under the deadline. As to this being the final opportunity -- that is literally the whole point of a discovery order like this -- otherwise, why is Trump asking for it all? Waste all this time and then later claim it was a ruse and ask to start over? No. It doesn't work that way.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People are making too much of this order. I am no Trump supporter and I think it’s stupid that the court is even entertaining this process, but I was surprised that Dearie ordered Trump’s team to provide all of its objections to the accuracy of the inventory without having seen the documents themselves. If an entry says something like “357 government documents/photos without classification markings” but provides no further description even of where they were found within Trump’s office, how are they supposed to determine whether those are all documents they believe were taken from his office, or what, if anything, might be missing from the inventory list? At some point Trump will need to take a position on these issues if he’s going to file a 41(g) motion for return of his property, but this does not seem like the appropriate point to require him to do so.

Sounds like you are saying Trump did not take careful notation of what he had. They had boxes stuffed with government documents as well as his own things and no one on his staff had inventoried them? Yikes. Not good records keeping.

Do you keep a written inventory of every news clipping (or comparable piece of paper) in your house to know whether you had 88 or 89. The verification process is not just about the classified documents. I mean, that’s what actually important here and likely why Trump started this process, but Rule 41(g) isn’t about classified documents, it’s about return of property, and the court needs to treat it that way regardless of Trump’s ulterior motives.

I'm a records manager and if I were working for a president who took boxes from the Oval Office you bet your sweet @ss I'd have those boxes inventoried. Yes, if a president has professionals on his staff they should know to inventory everything.

We're not talking about some no-name dude sitting in his own home with a pile of paper of no interest to anyone else.

Trump isn't the president anymore.

What exactly is your point?

Why do you assume that Trump, as a former president, is working closely with a records manager at Mar-a-Lago to document every newspaper clipping he shoves in a drawer?

Why did Trump, while he was president, not have professional staff inventory what he was shoving into boxes to cart off? Do you not know anything about how such things are supposed to work? Who was handing out property passes for those boxes to leave the White House? They should have been inventoried.

He can decline all of that. And this is (one of) the results.

If he thinks the rules don't apply to him, then he can find out. They do,

When, or ever, has/did Donald trump ever refuse anything that was free and that he could use to his benefit?!!!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People are making too much of this order. I am no Trump supporter and I think it’s stupid that the court is even entertaining this process, but I was surprised that Dearie ordered Trump’s team to provide all of its objections to the accuracy of the inventory without having seen the documents themselves. If an entry says something like “357 government documents/photos without classification markings” but provides no further description even of where they were found within Trump’s office, how are they supposed to determine whether those are all documents they believe were taken from his office, or what, if anything, might be missing from the inventory list? At some point Trump will need to take a position on these issues if he’s going to file a 41(g) motion for return of his property, but this does not seem like the appropriate point to require him to do so.

Sounds like you are saying Trump did not take careful notation of what he had. They had boxes stuffed with government documents as well as his own things and no one on his staff had inventoried them? Yikes. Not good records keeping.

Do you keep a written inventory of every news clipping (or comparable piece of paper) in your house to know whether you had 88 or 89. The verification process is not just about the classified documents. I mean, that’s what actually important here and likely why Trump started this process, but Rule 41(g) isn’t about classified documents, it’s about return of property, and the court needs to treat it that way regardless of Trump’s ulterior motives.

I'm a records manager and if I were working for a president who took boxes from the Oval Office you bet your sweet @ss I'd have those boxes inventoried. Yes, if a president has professionals on his staff they should know to inventory everything.

We're not talking about some no-name dude sitting in his own home with a pile of paper of no interest to anyone else.

Trump isn't the president anymore.

What exactly is your point?

Why do you assume that Trump, as a former president, is working closely with a records manager at Mar-a-Lago to document every newspaper clipping he shoves in a drawer?

Why did Trump, while he was president, not have professional staff inventory what he was shoving into boxes to cart off? Do you not know anything about how such things are supposed to work? Who was handing out property passes for those boxes to leave the White House? They should have been inventoried.

He can decline all of that. And this is (one of) the results.

If he thinks the rules don't apply to him, then he can find out. They do,

Anonymous wrote:But the Special Master is also asking for a list of things Team Trump say were taken, but which aren't on inventory. Trump could simply list everything personal he thinks was taken, as missing, and say all the other items weren't on his property

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People are making too much of this order. I am no Trump supporter and I think it’s stupid that the court is even entertaining this process, but I was surprised that Dearie ordered Trump’s team to provide all of its objections to the accuracy of the inventory without having seen the documents themselves. If an entry says something like “357 government documents/photos without classification markings” but provides no further description even of where they were found within Trump’s office, how are they supposed to determine whether those are all documents they believe were taken from his office, or what, if anything, might be missing from the inventory list? At some point Trump will need to take a position on these issues if he’s going to file a 41(g) motion for return of his property, but this does not seem like the appropriate point to require him to do so.

Sounds like you are saying Trump did not take careful notation of what he had. They had boxes stuffed with government documents as well as his own things and no one on his staff had inventoried them? Yikes. Not good records keeping.

Do you keep a written inventory of every news clipping (or comparable piece of paper) in your house to know whether you had 88 or 89. The verification process is not just about the classified documents. I mean, that’s what actually important here and likely why Trump started this process, but Rule 41(g) isn’t about classified documents, it’s about return of property, and the court needs to treat it that way regardless of Trump’s ulterior motives.

I'm a records manager and if I were working for a president who took boxes from the Oval Office you bet your sweet @ss I'd have those boxes inventoried. Yes, if a president has professionals on his staff they should know to inventory everything.

We're not talking about some no-name dude sitting in his own home with a pile of paper of no interest to anyone else.

Trump isn't the president anymore.

What exactly is your point?

Why do you assume that Trump, as a former president, is working closely with a records manager at Mar-a-Lago to document every newspaper clipping he shoves in a drawer?

Why did Trump, while he was president, not have professional staff inventory what he was shoving into boxes to cart off? Do you not know anything about how such things are supposed to work? Who was handing out property passes for those boxes to leave the White House? They should have been inventoried.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People are making too much of this order. I am no Trump supporter and I think it’s stupid that the court is even entertaining this process, but I was surprised that Dearie ordered Trump’s team to provide all of its objections to the accuracy of the inventory without having seen the documents themselves. If an entry says something like “357 government documents/photos without classification markings” but provides no further description even of where they were found within Trump’s office, how are they supposed to determine whether those are all documents they believe were taken from his office, or what, if anything, might be missing from the inventory list? At some point Trump will need to take a position on these issues if he’s going to file a 41(g) motion for return of his property, but this does not seem like the appropriate point to require him to do so.

Sounds like you are saying Trump did not take careful notation of what he had. They had boxes stuffed with government documents as well as his own things and no one on his staff had inventoried them? Yikes. Not good records keeping.

Do you keep a written inventory of every news clipping (or comparable piece of paper) in your house to know whether you had 88 or 89. The verification process is not just about the classified documents. I mean, that’s what actually important here and likely why Trump started this process, but Rule 41(g) isn’t about classified documents, it’s about return of property, and the court needs to treat it that way regardless of Trump’s ulterior motives.

I'm a records manager and if I were working for a president who took boxes from the Oval Office you bet your sweet @ss I'd have those boxes inventoried. Yes, if a president has professionals on his staff they should know to inventory everything.

We're not talking about some no-name dude sitting in his own home with a pile of paper of no interest to anyone else.

Trump isn't the president anymore.

What exactly is your point?

Why do you assume that Trump, as a former president, is working closely with a records manager at Mar-a-Lago to document every newspaper clipping he shoves in a drawer?

Why did Trump, while he was president, not have professional staff inventory what he was shoving into boxes to cart off? Do you not know anything about how such things are supposed to work? Who was handing out property passes for those boxes to leave the White House? They should have been inventoried.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:More generally, I think it’s important to remember what this proceeding is about. It’s not a criminal proceeding, it’s about seeking the return of his own property that was seized, and asserting any appropriate privileges. Let’s say among the 88 news articles found in one part of his office, Trump knows there is an article about the Yankees signed by Aaron Judge. He really wants that back. But without seeing what’s there, how can he know that it includes his Aaron Judge article? If he doesn’t assert now that it’s missing and it turns out it’s not there because an agent stole it to sell on eBay, will Trump have waived the right to claim it is missing if he doesn’t assert that argument now, before his team sees the documents?

Again, not saying this happened. I have no reason to believe it did. But these are legitimate reasons why Dearie’s process seems problematic.

Exactly. This is not a criminal proceeding - the government first asked nicely for the return of their property and then, when that didn't work, went and got it. When they realized exactly what Trump had kept, it started to get closer to a criminal proceeding - but it didn't start out that way. And btw, Trump's lousy lawyers never properly served the government or even properly filed a complaint? motion? or whatever for this, they just made something up and Judge Cannon indulged them.

DP. You are conflating Cannon's conduct with Dearie's conduct. Cannon's handling of the matter is highly problematic; I won't deny that. But Cannon has delegated specific responsibilities to Dearie and he has to carry them out appropriately or there will be easy grounds for Cannon to ignore his recommendations later. Given the responsibilities delegated and framework set out by Cannon for the special master review, there is zero reason Dearie needs to have Trump's verification before his team can review the documents (because remember, the classified documents are not out of the process). Moreover, nothing in Cannon's appointing order gave Dearie authority to declare that this preliminary verification would be Trump's "final opportunity to raise any factual dispute as to the completeness and accuracy of the Detailed Property Inventory."

Going back to the hypotheticals set forth above, let's say Trump knows he had X number of government documents in a particular drawer, and that is the same number of documents listed in the inventory. He would have no basis to dispute the accuracy and completeness of the inventory, right? But then what happens if, during the review, Trump's team discovers a document that they do not believe was in that drawer, and then also contends that a different document was in the drawer but is not in that set of the produced documents? Can Trump dispute the accuracy of the inventory at that point, or has that ship sailed because he didn't dispute something he did could not have known was up for dispute at the time of his "final opportunity" to raise the issue?

I know someone's first impulse will be to respond that Trump having any government documents is problematic, and I will not dispute that. But for purposes of any future proceedings, including criminal proceedings, which specific documents Trump had may be critically important. So let's set that argument aside for right now.

Moreover, Dearie has not articulated a reason why he needs to proceed in this order and make the verification now rather than after the parties have reviewed the documents. No matter what Dearie might determine now on verification, he still has to allow Trump's team access to all of the seized materials (other than the classified documents) for the privilege review. It does make sense for Dearie to give Trump's team an opportunity to raise any obvious issues with the inventory now because there may be efficiencies to resolving those upfront (particularly if Trump can tell now that something is missing from the inventory), but there is no reason for Dearie to make this Trump's last opportunity to raise those kinds of issues.

The whole process is clearly bullshit, but that makes it all the more important for Dearie to carry out his responsibilities appropriately so that he does not give easy grounds for Cannon to rejects his recommendations and then make it hard for the 11th Circuit to find she abused her discretion in doing so.