Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“The Dobbs decision of 15 weeks” what is he even talking about

I think he means that Dobbs would have allowed Rs to make 15 week bans, but they went too far and it's biting them in the butt. But maybe that's not what he means.

Really this whole conversation would be so different right now if Rs had in fact just put in place a bunch of 15 week bans with exceptions for life of the mother, serious fetal issues, and cases of rape and incest. I think this issue would have largely died down by now.

But I guess give it to them, they were true believers and took their shot.

The problem is that "the life of the mother" is subjective to Rs, and they feel that a lawyer should decide that rather than a doctor.

Look at the TX case.

Rs have created a death panel of lawyers.

Agree. I think the country would be ok with a 15 week ban and a "health of the mother" exception. It is otherwise impossible to know when the brink of death occurs.

And what do you say to the mother who finds out at 16 weeks that the fetus has a catastrophic abnormally incompatible with life and does not wish to carry it to term?

What do you say to the 13 year old child whose pregnancy is first discovered at 16 weeks? You going to force her to do l&d at 9 months?

And who gets to decide when the health of the mother allows an abortion after 15 weeks? You are going to make a woman wait in agony while lawyers and judges decide her fate, rather than her doctor?

We're not saying a 15 week ban is a great idea which will leave no victims. We're saying that if the Rs had enacted a whole bunch of 15 week bans in red states, they would probably be doing much better electorally right now. A lot of people would be fine with red states having 15 week bans. I think plenty of people would have been ok with a national 15 week ban, too, so long as abortion rights were protected before 15 weeks.

Anyway, it's all moot because that isn't what Rs did, and f them anyway those woman hating monsters.

Im the original PP that said "15 weeks is ok" and this is exactly what I meant. I think if the Rs messaged, they could have had strong support for a 15 week national ban if they had an exception for the "health of the mother" and not the "life of the mother". But now they are in this ridiculous place where they are leaving doctors forcing women to the brink of death, shrugging when 13 year old children have babies, and trying to outlaw IVF, and the majority of the population does not want any of this..s They should be ashamed they do not see abortion is healthcare.

The Rs could never do this because it is fundamentally at odds with the religious beliefs that drive the anti-abortion movement. If you think an embryo is the same as a person, then the only answer is no abortions at all. And that’s what they believe.

A minority portion of GOP voters believe an embryo is the same as person. The evangelical influence is getting smaller with each passing generation and they'll soon be close to irrelevant. In fact, over 2/3rds of Americans were fine with abortions law as it was before Roe was overturned. Within this majority of Americans that accepted Roe as it was and assumed it to be settled law, there are some disagreements on specific legality time frames and applicable exceptions but there is common ground and we aren't as divided on this issue as our politicians make us out to be. In other words, very few of us are actually forced birthers or baby killers but our politicians and tainted journalism makes it seem as though everyone on the other "side" is a forced birther or baby killer.

Anonymous wrote:ICYMI, Youngkin just vetoed a bill that would protect women who come to VA for an abortion and their doctors from extradition:

Late Friday night, Youngkin announced that he vetoed two nearly identical bills aimed at protecting out-of-state women who come to Virginia for a legal abortion and the health-care professionals who provide that abortion. The measures would prevent them from being extradited to another state where the procedure is illegal.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2024/04/06/virginia-budget-youngkin-veto-deadline/

Oh and if he vetoes the budget our schools may close down.

And Youngkin was supposed to be the new Republican Party. The new moderate normal Republican Party.
The conservatives are off the rails and have totally lost the plot.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“The Dobbs decision of 15 weeks” what is he even talking about

I think he means that Dobbs would have allowed Rs to make 15 week bans, but they went too far and it's biting them in the butt. But maybe that's not what he means.

Really this whole conversation would be so different right now if Rs had in fact just put in place a bunch of 15 week bans with exceptions for life of the mother, serious fetal issues, and cases of rape and incest. I think this issue would have largely died down by now.

But I guess give it to them, they were true believers and took their shot.

The problem is that "the life of the mother" is subjective to Rs, and they feel that a lawyer should decide that rather than a doctor.

Look at the TX case.

Rs have created a death panel of lawyers.

Agree. I think the country would be ok with a 15 week ban and a "health of the mother" exception. It is otherwise impossible to know when the brink of death occurs.

And what do you say to the mother who finds out at 16 weeks that the fetus has a catastrophic abnormally incompatible with life and does not wish to carry it to term?

What do you say to the 13 year old child whose pregnancy is first discovered at 16 weeks? You going to force her to do l&d at 9 months?

And who gets to decide when the health of the mother allows an abortion after 15 weeks? You are going to make a woman wait in agony while lawyers and judges decide her fate, rather than her doctor?

We're not saying a 15 week ban is a great idea which will leave no victims. We're saying that if the Rs had enacted a whole bunch of 15 week bans in red states, they would probably be doing much better electorally right now. A lot of people would be fine with red states having 15 week bans. I think plenty of people would have been ok with a national 15 week ban, too, so long as abortion rights were protected before 15 weeks.

Anyway, it's all moot because that isn't what Rs did, and f them anyway those woman hating monsters.

Im the original PP that said "15 weeks is ok" and this is exactly what I meant. I think if the Rs messaged, they could have had strong support for a 15 week national ban if they had an exception for the "health of the mother" and not the "life of the mother". But now they are in this ridiculous place where they are leaving doctors forcing women to the brink of death, shrugging when 13 year old children have babies, and trying to outlaw IVF, and the majority of the population does not want any of this..s They should be ashamed they do not see abortion is healthcare.

The Rs could never do this because it is fundamentally at odds with the religious beliefs that drive the anti-abortion movement. If you think an embryo is the same as a person, then the only answer is no abortions at all. And that’s what they believe.

If you think the embryo is the same as a person, then they should basically abolish anything that saves the mother's life because in their mind there's no discernible difference

I mean, yes, and that’s why we have the policies that we’re seeing in Texas and other states run by religious zealots.

ICYMI, Youngkin just vetoed a bill that would protect women who come to VA for an abortion and their doctors from extradition:

Late Friday night, Youngkin announced that he vetoed two nearly identical bills aimed at protecting out-of-state women who come to Virginia for a legal abortion and the health-care professionals who provide that abortion. The measures would prevent them from being extradited to another state where the procedure is illegal.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2024/04/06/virginia-budget-youngkin-veto-deadline/

Oh and if he vetoes the budget our schools may close down.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't believe the number of folks that support the 15-week limit. The whole point of choosing the arbitrary limit of 15-weeks is that most women get their first ultrasound at the 16-week mark. It was intended to prevent women from making informed decisions about a pregnancy based on the results of that ultrasound. So, most women will not find out about birth defects, abnormalities and issues with the pregnancy until after the limit.

If 15-weeks becomes the prevalent limit, especially in conservative states, then I think that the medical community is going to have to move to 13 or 14 week ultrasounds as the standard instead of 16 weeks. Pregnant women need to be able to make as informed decisions as possible, so the medical community needs to adjust the standards around such bureaucratic restrictions.

Why don’t they just scan earlier?

20 weeks is when they typically do the anatomy scan where major defects can be seen. Maybe some things can be seen earlier, but some organs need that long to develop.

And a very, very sad few don’t reveal themselves until even later in the pregnancy. Ultrasound is a really great tool but sometimes maternal anatomy and fetal immaturity prevent seeing fetal development issues. And those are those third trimester cases that exist.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“The Dobbs decision of 15 weeks” what is he even talking about

I think he means that Dobbs would have allowed Rs to make 15 week bans, but they went too far and it's biting them in the butt. But maybe that's not what he means.

Really this whole conversation would be so different right now if Rs had in fact just put in place a bunch of 15 week bans with exceptions for life of the mother, serious fetal issues, and cases of rape and incest. I think this issue would have largely died down by now.

But I guess give it to them, they were true believers and took their shot.

The problem is that "the life of the mother" is subjective to Rs, and they feel that a lawyer should decide that rather than a doctor.

Look at the TX case.

Rs have created a death panel of lawyers.

Agree. I think the country would be ok with a 15 week ban and a "health of the mother" exception. It is otherwise impossible to know when the brink of death occurs.

And what do you say to the mother who finds out at 16 weeks that the fetus has a catastrophic abnormally incompatible with life and does not wish to carry it to term?

What do you say to the 13 year old child whose pregnancy is first discovered at 16 weeks? You going to force her to do l&d at 9 months?

And who gets to decide when the health of the mother allows an abortion after 15 weeks? You are going to make a woman wait in agony while lawyers and judges decide her fate, rather than her doctor?

We're not saying a 15 week ban is a great idea which will leave no victims. We're saying that if the Rs had enacted a whole bunch of 15 week bans in red states, they would probably be doing much better electorally right now. A lot of people would be fine with red states having 15 week bans. I think plenty of people would have been ok with a national 15 week ban, too, so long as abortion rights were protected before 15 weeks.

Anyway, it's all moot because that isn't what Rs did, and f them anyway those woman hating monsters.

Im the original PP that said "15 weeks is ok" and this is exactly what I meant. I think if the Rs messaged, they could have had strong support for a 15 week national ban if they had an exception for the "health of the mother" and not the "life of the mother". But now they are in this ridiculous place where they are leaving doctors forcing women to the brink of death, shrugging when 13 year old children have babies, and trying to outlaw IVF, and the majority of the population does not want any of this..s They should be ashamed they do not see abortion is healthcare.

The Rs could never do this because it is fundamentally at odds with the religious beliefs that drive the anti-abortion movement. If you think an embryo is the same as a person, then the only answer is no abortions at all. And that’s what they believe.

If you think the embryo is the same as a person, then they should basically abolish anything that saves the mother's life because in their mind there's no discernible difference

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't believe the number of folks that support the 15-week limit. The whole point of choosing the arbitrary limit of 15-weeks is that most women get their first ultrasound at the 16-week mark. It was intended to prevent women from making informed decisions about a pregnancy based on the results of that ultrasound. So, most women will not find out about birth defects, abnormalities and issues with the pregnancy until after the limit.

If 15-weeks becomes the prevalent limit, especially in conservative states, then I think that the medical community is going to have to move to 13 or 14 week ultrasounds as the standard instead of 16 weeks. Pregnant women need to be able to make as informed decisions as possible, so the medical community needs to adjust the standards around such bureaucratic restrictions.

Why don’t they just scan earlier?

And this is why abortion restrictions are such a bad idea. There are significant medical reasons why ultrasounds are done at either 16 or 20 weeks. Now people are questioning the medical reasoning and second-guessing doctors. Frankly, trying to let police, lawyers and elected officials make medical decisions is like asking doctor and lawyers to design and rebuild the Key Bridge.

People have different skill sets. I want my medical care in the hands of someone who has spent the last 10+ years of their lives studying and practicing medicine. Just like I want bridge designed by people who have studied structural and constructive enginering for the last 10+ years of their lives.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Seriously?
Come on guys.
They can’t scan for body parts and pieces THAT HAVEN’T EVEN DEVELOPED YET.

Again...there is a SERIOUS lack of knowledge amongst the population of this country when it comes to basic human reproduction.

They truly think God puts a small but fully and perfectly formed baby into every uterus, don’t they.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Seriously?
Come on guys.
They can’t scan for body parts and pieces THAT HAVEN’T EVEN DEVELOPED YET.

Again...there is a SERIOUS lack of knowledge amongst the population of this country when it comes to basic human reproduction.

Unless you are pregnant or a doctor, just stay out of it.

Anonymous wrote:Seriously?
Come on guys.
They can’t scan for body parts and pieces THAT HAVEN’T EVEN DEVELOPED YET.

Again...there is a SERIOUS lack of knowledge amongst the population of this country when it comes to basic human reproduction.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't believe the number of folks that support the 15-week limit. The whole point of choosing the arbitrary limit of 15-weeks is that most women get their first ultrasound at the 16-week mark. It was intended to prevent women from making informed decisions about a pregnancy based on the results of that ultrasound. So, most women will not find out about birth defects, abnormalities and issues with the pregnancy until after the limit.

If 15-weeks becomes the prevalent limit, especially in conservative states, then I think that the medical community is going to have to move to 13 or 14 week ultrasounds as the standard instead of 16 weeks. Pregnant women need to be able to make as informed decisions as possible, so the medical community needs to adjust the standards around such bureaucratic restrictions.

Why don’t they just scan earlier?

20 weeks is when they typically do the anatomy scan where major defects can be seen. Maybe some things can be seen earlier, but some organs need that long to develop.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“The Dobbs decision of 15 weeks” what is he even talking about

I think he means that Dobbs would have allowed Rs to make 15 week bans, but they went too far and it's biting them in the butt. But maybe that's not what he means.

Really this whole conversation would be so different right now if Rs had in fact just put in place a bunch of 15 week bans with exceptions for life of the mother, serious fetal issues, and cases of rape and incest. I think this issue would have largely died down by now.

But I guess give it to them, they were true believers and took their shot.

The problem is that "the life of the mother" is subjective to Rs, and they feel that a lawyer should decide that rather than a doctor.

Look at the TX case.

Rs have created a death panel of lawyers.

Agree. I think the country would be ok with a 15 week ban and a "health of the mother" exception. It is otherwise impossible to know when the brink of death occurs.

Again, absent protections for abortion, the forced birthers would immediately begin chipping away at abortion access as they did for fifty years. 15 weeks is as bad a “compromise” as anything. It’s ceding ground to forced birthers, chips away women’s rights and your hypothetical completely ignores termination for fetal reasons.

The government as an instrument of religious extremists needs to stay out of women’s bodies. Abortion should be regulated by doctors like every other procedure in the country is.

This. Witness the tale of two women in Florida https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/04/10/pprom-florida-abortion-ban/ - both had pre-viability PPROM and both were given antibiotics and sent home to wait. There was no chance of survival for the fetus, but by making the women wait for care one lost half her blood and almost died. The other one was running around to different hospitals trying to find one that considered her sick enough to admit her.

In California, when this happened to Chrissy Teigen, she was admitted, induced, delivered the fetus safely, and had pictures taken to mark her loss.

We can't agree to bans with exceptions when doctors are afraid of being prosecuted criminally for practicing medicine under the exception. When right wingers point out that Europe has laws banning abortions with exceptions so we should do the same, the difference is that right wingers have no intention of honoring the exception part.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“The Dobbs decision of 15 weeks” what is he even talking about

I think he means that Dobbs would have allowed Rs to make 15 week bans, but they went too far and it's biting them in the butt. But maybe that's not what he means.

Really this whole conversation would be so different right now if Rs had in fact just put in place a bunch of 15 week bans with exceptions for life of the mother, serious fetal issues, and cases of rape and incest. I think this issue would have largely died down by now.

But I guess give it to them, they were true believers and took their shot.

The problem is that "the life of the mother" is subjective to Rs, and they feel that a lawyer should decide that rather than a doctor.

Look at the TX case.

Rs have created a death panel of lawyers.

Agree. I think the country would be ok with a 15 week ban and a "health of the mother" exception. It is otherwise impossible to know when the brink of death occurs.

And what do you say to the mother who finds out at 16 weeks that the fetus has a catastrophic abnormally incompatible with life and does not wish to carry it to term?

What do you say to the 13 year old child whose pregnancy is first discovered at 16 weeks? You going to force her to do l&d at 9 months?

And who gets to decide when the health of the mother allows an abortion after 15 weeks? You are going to make a woman wait in agony while lawyers and judges decide her fate, rather than her doctor?

We're not saying a 15 week ban is a great idea which will leave no victims. We're saying that if the Rs had enacted a whole bunch of 15 week bans in red states, they would probably be doing much better electorally right now. A lot of people would be fine with red states having 15 week bans. I think plenty of people would have been ok with a national 15 week ban, too, so long as abortion rights were protected before 15 weeks.

Anyway, it's all moot because that isn't what Rs did, and f them anyway those woman hating monsters.

Im the original PP that said "15 weeks is ok" and this is exactly what I meant. I think if the Rs messaged, they could have had strong support for a 15 week national ban if they had an exception for the "health of the mother" and not the "life of the mother". But now they are in this ridiculous place where they are leaving doctors forcing women to the brink of death, shrugging when 13 year old children have babies, and trying to outlaw IVF, and the majority of the population does not want any of this..s They should be ashamed they do not see abortion is healthcare.

Nobody wants a 15w ban.

Forced birthers want a complete ban.

And the rest of us don’t want any kind of national ban (WTF?).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't believe the number of folks that support the 15-week limit. The whole point of choosing the arbitrary limit of 15-weeks is that most women get their first ultrasound at the 16-week mark. It was intended to prevent women from making informed decisions about a pregnancy based on the results of that ultrasound. So, most women will not find out about birth defects, abnormalities and issues with the pregnancy until after the limit.

If 15-weeks becomes the prevalent limit, especially in conservative states, then I think that the medical community is going to have to move to 13 or 14 week ultrasounds as the standard instead of 16 weeks. Pregnant women need to be able to make as informed decisions as possible, so the medical community needs to adjust the standards around such bureaucratic restrictions.

Why don’t they just scan earlier?

People do get scans much earlier but it’s too early to detect some of the major problems that can arrive.

Seriously?
Come on guys.
They can’t scan for body parts and pieces THAT HAVEN’T EVEN DEVELOPED YET.