Anonymous wrote:I can't believe the number of folks that support the 15-week limit. The whole point of choosing the arbitrary limit of 15-weeks is that most women get their first ultrasound at the 16-week mark. It was intended to prevent women from making informed decisions about a pregnancy based on the results of that ultrasound. So, most women will not find out about birth defects, abnormalities and issues with the pregnancy until after the limit.

If 15-weeks becomes the prevalent limit, especially in conservative states, then I think that the medical community is going to have to move to 13 or 14 week ultrasounds as the standard instead of 16 weeks. Pregnant women need to be able to make as informed decisions as possible, so the medical community needs to adjust the standards around such bureaucratic restrictions.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“The Dobbs decision of 15 weeks” what is he even talking about

I think he means that Dobbs would have allowed Rs to make 15 week bans, but they went too far and it's biting them in the butt. But maybe that's not what he means.

Really this whole conversation would be so different right now if Rs had in fact just put in place a bunch of 15 week bans with exceptions for life of the mother, serious fetal issues, and cases of rape and incest. I think this issue would have largely died down by now.

But I guess give it to them, they were true believers and took their shot.

The problem is that "the life of the mother" is subjective to Rs, and they feel that a lawyer should decide that rather than a doctor.

Look at the TX case.

Rs have created a death panel of lawyers.

Agree. I think the country would be ok with a 15 week ban and a "health of the mother" exception. It is otherwise impossible to know when the brink of death occurs.

And what do you say to the mother who finds out at 16 weeks that the fetus has a catastrophic abnormally incompatible with life and does not wish to carry it to term?

What do you say to the 13 year old child whose pregnancy is first discovered at 16 weeks? You going to force her to do l&d at 9 months?

And who gets to decide when the health of the mother allows an abortion after 15 weeks? You are going to make a woman wait in agony while lawyers and judges decide her fate, rather than her doctor?

We're not saying a 15 week ban is a great idea which will leave no victims. We're saying that if the Rs had enacted a whole bunch of 15 week bans in red states, they would probably be doing much better electorally right now. A lot of people would be fine with red states having 15 week bans. I think plenty of people would have been ok with a national 15 week ban, too, so long as abortion rights were protected before 15 weeks.

Anyway, it's all moot because that isn't what Rs did, and f them anyway those woman hating monsters.

Im the original PP that said "15 weeks is ok" and this is exactly what I meant. I think if the Rs messaged, they could have had strong support for a 15 week national ban if they had an exception for the "health of the mother" and not the "life of the mother". But now they are in this ridiculous place where they are leaving doctors forcing women to the brink of death, shrugging when 13 year old children have babies, and trying to outlaw IVF, and the majority of the population does not want any of this..s They should be ashamed they do not see abortion is healthcare.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“The Dobbs decision of 15 weeks” what is he even talking about

I think he means that Dobbs would have allowed Rs to make 15 week bans, but they went too far and it's biting them in the butt. But maybe that's not what he means.

Really this whole conversation would be so different right now if Rs had in fact just put in place a bunch of 15 week bans with exceptions for life of the mother, serious fetal issues, and cases of rape and incest. I think this issue would have largely died down by now.

But I guess give it to them, they were true believers and took their shot.

The problem is that "the life of the mother" is subjective to Rs, and they feel that a lawyer should decide that rather than a doctor.

Look at the TX case.

Rs have created a death panel of lawyers.

Agree. I think the country would be ok with a 15 week ban and a "health of the mother" exception. It is otherwise impossible to know when the brink of death occurs.

And what do you say to the mother who finds out at 16 weeks that the fetus has a catastrophic abnormally incompatible with life and does not wish to carry it to term?

What do you say to the 13 year old child whose pregnancy is first discovered at 16 weeks? You going to force her to do l&d at 9 months?

And who gets to decide when the health of the mother allows an abortion after 15 weeks? You are going to make a woman wait in agony while lawyers and judges decide her fate, rather than her doctor?

We're not saying a 15 week ban is a great idea which will leave no victims. We're saying that if the Rs had enacted a whole bunch of 15 week bans in red states, they would probably be doing much better electorally right now. A lot of people would be fine with red states having 15 week bans. I think plenty of people would have been ok with a national 15 week ban, too, so long as abortion rights were protected before 15 weeks.

Anyway, it's all moot because that isn't what Rs did, and f them anyway those woman hating monsters.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“The Dobbs decision of 15 weeks” what is he even talking about

I think he means that Dobbs would have allowed Rs to make 15 week bans, but they went too far and it's biting them in the butt. But maybe that's not what he means.

Really this whole conversation would be so different right now if Rs had in fact just put in place a bunch of 15 week bans with exceptions for life of the mother, serious fetal issues, and cases of rape and incest. I think this issue would have largely died down by now.

But I guess give it to them, they were true believers and took their shot.

The problem is that "the life of the mother" is subjective to Rs, and they feel that a lawyer should decide that rather than a doctor.

Look at the TX case.

Rs have created a death panel of lawyers.

Agree. I think the country would be ok with a 15 week ban and a "health of the mother" exception. It is otherwise impossible to know when the brink of death occurs.

And what do you say to the mother who finds out at 16 weeks that the fetus has a catastrophic abnormally incompatible with life and does not wish to carry it to term?

What do you say to the 13 year old child whose pregnancy is first discovered at 16 weeks? You going to force her to do l&d at 9 months?

And who gets to decide when the health of the mother allows an abortion after 15 weeks? You are going to make a woman wait in agony while lawyers and judges decide her fate, rather than her doctor?

We're not saying a 15 week ban is a great idea which will leave no victims. We're saying that if the Rs had enacted a whole bunch of 15 week bans in red states, they would probably be doing much better electorally right now. A lot of people would be fine with red states having 15 week bans. I think plenty of people would have been ok with a national 15 week ban, too, so long as abortion rights were protected before 15 weeks.

Anyway, it's all moot because that isn't what Rs did, and f them anyway those woman hating monsters.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“The Dobbs decision of 15 weeks” what is he even talking about

I think he means that Dobbs would have allowed Rs to make 15 week bans, but they went too far and it's biting them in the butt. But maybe that's not what he means.

Really this whole conversation would be so different right now if Rs had in fact just put in place a bunch of 15 week bans with exceptions for life of the mother, serious fetal issues, and cases of rape and incest. I think this issue would have largely died down by now.

But I guess give it to them, they were true believers and took their shot.

The problem is that "the life of the mother" is subjective to Rs, and they feel that a lawyer should decide that rather than a doctor.

Look at the TX case.

Rs have created a death panel of lawyers.

Agree. I think the country would be ok with a 15 week ban and a "health of the mother" exception. It is otherwise impossible to know when the brink of death occurs.

I think there was a time before Dobbs when the country would have been ok with a 15 week floor (blue states could be more permissive) and exceptions for the health of the mother and fetus, especially if those had come in coordination with steps like repealing the ban on federal funding.

Now? Not a chance. No one trusts republicans with this anymore. We’ve seen ten and twelve year old rape victims turned away from care. Women have wound up in the ICU. It’s not as bad as people thought it could be, it’s worse, and all the “we would never force raped children to have babies” rhetoric has been proven a lie.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“The Dobbs decision of 15 weeks” what is he even talking about

I think he means that Dobbs would have allowed Rs to make 15 week bans, but they went too far and it's biting them in the butt. But maybe that's not what he means.

Really this whole conversation would be so different right now if Rs had in fact just put in place a bunch of 15 week bans with exceptions for life of the mother, serious fetal issues, and cases of rape and incest. I think this issue would have largely died down by now.

But I guess give it to them, they were true believers and took their shot.

The problem is that "the life of the mother" is subjective to Rs, and they feel that a lawyer should decide that rather than a doctor.

Look at the TX case.

Rs have created a death panel of lawyers.

Agree. I think the country would be ok with a 15 week ban and a "health of the mother" exception. It is otherwise impossible to know when the brink of death occurs.

And what do you say to the mother who finds out at 16 weeks that the fetus has a catastrophic abnormally incompatible with life and does not wish to carry it to term?

What do you say to the 13 year old child whose pregnancy is first discovered at 16 weeks? You going to force her to do l&d at 9 months?

And who gets to decide when the health of the mother allows an abortion after 15 weeks? You are going to make a woman wait in agony while lawyers and judges decide her fate, rather than her doctor?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think the GOP is prepared for what is coming in November.

+1

As a Dem I am a fundamentally anxious person - but as a person I think Rs have no idea what is going to hit them in November.

I agree. As long as they treat this as a fringe issue I think November will go about as well as the great predicted "Red Tsunami" did for them. Good.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“The Dobbs decision of 15 weeks” what is he even talking about

I think he means that Dobbs would have allowed Rs to make 15 week bans, but they went too far and it's biting them in the butt. But maybe that's not what he means.

Really this whole conversation would be so different right now if Rs had in fact just put in place a bunch of 15 week bans with exceptions for life of the mother, serious fetal issues, and cases of rape and incest. I think this issue would have largely died down by now.

But I guess give it to them, they were true believers and took their shot.

The problem is that "the life of the mother" is subjective to Rs, and they feel that a lawyer should decide that rather than a doctor.

Look at the TX case.

Rs have created a death panel of lawyers.

Agree. I think the country would be ok with a 15 week ban and a "health of the mother" exception. It is otherwise impossible to know when the brink of death occurs.

Why would anyone be OK with a 15 week ban? What does that accomplish? Right wing loses it's biggest vote generator, it's still "killing babies". If you think an embryo is a person how is reducing a few weeks from Roe make a difference. This is typical "moderate" view of policy. Hey, lets' make Right wing policy seem less likely and maybe we can get more votes. Sorry. A ban is a ban is a ban.

Anonymous wrote:I can't believe the number of folks that support the 15-week limit. The whole point of choosing the arbitrary limit of 15-weeks is that most women get their first ultrasound at the 16-week mark. It was intended to prevent women from making informed decisions about a pregnancy based on the results of that ultrasound. So, most women will not find out about birth defects, abnormalities and issues with the pregnancy until after the limit.

If 15-weeks becomes the prevalent limit, especially in conservative states, then I think that the medical community is going to have to move to 13 or 14 week ultrasounds as the standard instead of 16 weeks. Pregnant women need to be able to make as informed decisions as possible, so the medical community needs to adjust the standards around such bureaucratic restrictions.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“The Dobbs decision of 15 weeks” what is he even talking about

I think he means that Dobbs would have allowed Rs to make 15 week bans, but they went too far and it's biting them in the butt. But maybe that's not what he means.

Really this whole conversation would be so different right now if Rs had in fact just put in place a bunch of 15 week bans with exceptions for life of the mother, serious fetal issues, and cases of rape and incest. I think this issue would have largely died down by now.

But I guess give it to them, they were true believers and took their shot.

The problem is that "the life of the mother" is subjective to Rs, and they feel that a lawyer should decide that rather than a doctor.

Look at the TX case.

Rs have created a death panel of lawyers.

Agree. I think the country would be ok with a 15 week ban and a "health of the mother" exception. It is otherwise impossible to know when the brink of death occurs.

And what do you say to the mother who finds out at 16 weeks that the fetus has a catastrophic abnormally incompatible with life and does not wish to carry it to term?

What do you say to the 13 year old child whose pregnancy is first discovered at 16 weeks? You going to force her to do l&d at 9 months?

And who gets to decide when the health of the mother allows an abortion after 15 weeks? You are going to make a woman wait in agony while lawyers and judges decide her fate, rather than her doctor?

This. All of this, but especially the bolded
What is the threshold here, legally? How close to sepsis, how high of a fever, how much blood loss, etc? How do you codify that into laws? You can't.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“The Dobbs decision of 15 weeks” what is he even talking about

I think he means that Dobbs would have allowed Rs to make 15 week bans, but they went too far and it's biting them in the butt. But maybe that's not what he means.

Really this whole conversation would be so different right now if Rs had in fact just put in place a bunch of 15 week bans with exceptions for life of the mother, serious fetal issues, and cases of rape and incest. I think this issue would have largely died down by now.

But I guess give it to them, they were true believers and took their shot.

The problem is that "the life of the mother" is subjective to Rs, and they feel that a lawyer should decide that rather than a doctor.

Look at the TX case.

Rs have created a death panel of lawyers.

Agree. I think the country would be ok with a 15 week ban and a "health of the mother" exception. It is otherwise impossible to know when the brink of death occurs.

And what do you say to the mother who finds out at 16 weeks that the fetus has a catastrophic abnormally incompatible with life and does not wish to carry it to term?

What do you say to the 13 year old child whose pregnancy is first discovered at 16 weeks? You going to force her to do l&d at 9 months?

And who gets to decide when the health of the mother allows an abortion after 15 weeks? You are going to make a woman wait in agony while lawyers and judges decide her fate, rather than her doctor?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“The Dobbs decision of 15 weeks” what is he even talking about

I think he means that Dobbs would have allowed Rs to make 15 week bans, but they went too far and it's biting them in the butt. But maybe that's not what he means.

Really this whole conversation would be so different right now if Rs had in fact just put in place a bunch of 15 week bans with exceptions for life of the mother, serious fetal issues, and cases of rape and incest. I think this issue would have largely died down by now.

But I guess give it to them, they were true believers and took their shot.

The problem is that "the life of the mother" is subjective to Rs, and they feel that a lawyer should decide that rather than a doctor.

Look at the TX case.

Rs have created a death panel of lawyers.

Agree. I think the country would be ok with a 15 week ban and a "health of the mother" exception. It is otherwise impossible to know when the brink of death occurs.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“The Dobbs decision of 15 weeks” what is he even talking about

I think he means that Dobbs would have allowed Rs to make 15 week bans, but they went too far and it's biting them in the butt. But maybe that's not what he means.

Really this whole conversation would be so different right now if Rs had in fact just put in place a bunch of 15 week bans with exceptions for life of the mother, serious fetal issues, and cases of rape and incest. I think this issue would have largely died down by now.

But I guess give it to them, they were true believers and took their shot.

The problem is that "the life of the mother" is subjective to Rs, and they feel that a lawyer should decide that rather than a doctor.

Look at the TX case.

Rs have created a death panel of lawyers.

Agree. I think the country would be ok with a 15 week ban and a "health of the mother" exception. It is otherwise impossible to know when the brink of death occurs.

Why would anyone be OK with a 15 week ban? What does that accomplish? Right wing loses its biggest vote generator, it's still "killing babies". If you think an embryo is a person how is reducing a few weeks from Roe make a difference. This is typical "moderate" view of policy. Hey, let’s' make Right wing policy seem less likely and maybe we can get more votes. Sorry. A ban is a ban is a ban.