Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Murder suicide. Dad killed mom first (why she was found separately) then everyone else together.

And then put the baby back into his pack and sat down to die?

Also no wounds - no stabs, no bullets, no strangulation marks, no assault.

I think that’s what this was too. Family annihilation. So freaking sad.

Serious question - is it typical for family annihilators to kill the pets too? It’s not like the dog is gonna tattle. The death of the dog points away from murder/suicide IMO.

^Totally disagree. The dog being dead is why I am sure it’s murder/suicide. Also, the dad being in that odd seated position next to the dead baby and dog.

The dad did it all. Mom was trying to escape, but succumbed to the poison in the canteen.

Anonymous wrote:Two healthy adults and a healthy dog don't really die suddenly from heatstroke in 110 weather, do they? I mean, many people all over the world live in those environments and travel, work outside, etc. I just don't think this is likely at all, at least not without other major complicating factors.

Dog would have died first from heat. Then baby, finally parents.

Still I think the parents would have survived, even if severely dehydrated.

Anonymous wrote:Doesn’t 911 actually work even in areas of no service? I guess I’m naive but I thought that 911 would often work in places where you can’t get “normal” service. You can also text 911….even if there isn’t service, isn’t there a chance the text would go through?

How would 911 work in an area with no cell service?

Anonymous wrote:Two healthy adults and a healthy dog don't really die suddenly from heatstroke in 110 weather, do they? I mean, many people all over the world live in those environments and travel, work outside, etc. I just don't think this is likely at all, at least not without other major complicating factors.

The people who live in those environments physically adapt to the conditions. These are pasty folks who live in San Francisco for decades until they moved to the Sierra foothills in 2020.

I had originally thought it was poison. But I’ve now come around to the heat stroke theory given the temps that day and the disorientation caused by heat stroke. They thought they’d finish the hike a lot quicker and then something happened. My guess is that the dog got injured or overheated. If they followed the trail down to the river, they’d have to climb up up nearly 2000 vertical feet (I looked at the topo maps). The main portion of the climb coming back was on the southern slope fully exposed to the sun with no shade at all - just a brown dirt trail and brown scrub lands (look on Google maps satellite view).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Murder suicide. Dad killed mom first (why she was found separately) then everyone else together.

And then put the baby back into his pack and sat down to die?

Also no wounds - no stabs, no bullets, no strangulation marks, no assault.

I think that’s what this was too. Family annihilation. So freaking sad.

Serious question - is it typical for family annihilators to kill the pets too? It’s not like the dog is gonna tattle. The death of the dog points away from murder/suicide IMO.

Two healthy adults and a healthy dog don't really die suddenly from heatstroke in 110 weather, do they? I mean, many people all over the world live in those environments and travel, work outside, etc. I just don't think this is likely at all, at least not without other major complicating factors.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was one of the original murder-suicide posters, but I am now coming around to potential heat stroke, given the temperatures and the fact that they seemed to be going for a daylong hike as opposed to an hour or two in the morning. It does seem unlikely that all of them, including the dog, would have succumbed together in around the same area, but it seems more likely than freak algae blooms or CO gas releases.

That said, her instagram points to some possibilities back to suicide:

- she notes that 3 years ago she was diagnosed with a "debilitating health condition"
- she mentions finding yoga after a "dark and lost time" in her life
- she posted frequently, at least monthly, several years ago, but last posted a photo of their baby 7 months ago and nothing afterward.

That coincides with the birth of the baby and PPD. Nothing else changed.

However the idea of her being able to and willing to take out the husband at the same time is not usual.

I actually am now leaning towards it being the mom who took them all out. It is such a woman thing to do to take out the dog also. Men would not even think about the dog. She was thinking about having them all go together. Then she had some second thoughts and started to go for help but then took herself out. Some sort of herbal poison.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m fat and out of shape and I live in southern arizona.

I don’t think it was heat stroke. For those of us that live in these climates, we know how to deal with the heat. I’ve gone hiking, in the morning, in the summer. I’ve never been close to heat stroke, and I’m a person who barely sweats. Also, 109 in 20% humidity for a person who is in good shape and has water is unlikely to be suddenly hit with heat stroke. It would take more time to cumulatively build up.

You’d be surprised how much the temp swings throughout the day and how much the lack of humidity helps. For example, my kids play outside when it’s in the low 100s here and we are all fat, fair skinned Scandinavians. Nobody has ever gotten heat exhaustion, let alone heat stroke.

They were walking up an extremely steep switchback, though. And also likely in an area with much worse air quality than what you have due to the forest fires. The baby hiking carrier posted up thread looks very heavy, and who knows if one of them (including the dog) was possibly in distress from an injury, which could have slowed them down and kept them there for many more hours than they anticipated. There was apparently zero shade between them and the truck since a fire wiped all the trees out a couple of years ago.

I also think heat stroke is a viable theory. I don't see them splitting up if one is struggling. But note that baby hiking carrier was an example one. They are slightly heavy, but the 1 year old itself is also pretty heavy. + water

Anonymous wrote:Murder suicide. Dad killed mom first (why she was found separately) then everyone else together.

I just don’t see it in this case. From all reports they were a happy, friendly family who went hiking or exploring together daily. Plus you can tell they adored each other, the baby, and the dog from the photos we’ve seen. I always think the husband did it and I’m sadly almost always correct. Would be truly shocked here.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It has to be heat stroke. I bet both adults started getting woozy at the same time--altered mental status, confusion and eventual loss of consciousness. This can happen very quickly. He sat down and she sat down and/or tumbled from a standing position. They were probably disoriented enough to not even think of using the phone. If you're drifting out of consciousness you're not going to be able to put two and two together to make a call. The baby either died at the same time or within a few hours. The dog probably laid down with them and eventually died of lack of lack of water/heat stroke as well. If this happened to me, my dog would never "go for help". He would hang out next to me.

Dogs have natural instincts and this one is experienced in wilderness. If it wasn't harnessed it would have followed the sounds of the river nearby to get some water and then come back to its family to protect them overnight.

Or maybe it stayed to protect the baby who was crying even if the parents were unconscious. Otherwise I can't see a dog that can hear running water staying there to die of heat exhaustion.

No way. My dog will sit down and refuse to move when he gets overheated, and it doesn’t take long. I give water and everything, he definitely won’t wonder home or look for water. He finds patch of grass or even a hint of shade and he won’t move. Hours before I get heat exhausted.

Anonymous wrote:I’m fat and out of shape and I live in southern arizona.

I don’t think it was heat stroke. For those of us that live in these climates, we know how to deal with the heat. I’ve gone hiking, in the morning, in the summer. I’ve never been close to heat stroke, and I’m a person who barely sweats. Also, 109 in 20% humidity for a person who is in good shape and has water is unlikely to be suddenly hit with heat stroke. It would take more time to cumulatively build up.

You’d be surprised how much the temp swings throughout the day and how much the lack of humidity helps. For example, my kids play outside when it’s in the low 100s here and we are all fat, fair skinned Scandinavians. Nobody has ever gotten heat exhaustion, let alone heat stroke.

They were walking up an extremely steep switchback, though. And also likely in an area with much worse air quality than what you have due to the forest fires. The baby hiking carrier posted up thread looks very heavy, and who knows if one of them (including the dog) was possibly in distress from an injury, which could have slowed them down and kept them there for many more hours than they anticipated. There was apparently zero shade between them and the truck since a fire wiped all the trees out a couple of years ago.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do we know it was a full day hike that they had planned? I must have missed that. And how do you know there was no shade at all?

I don't think anyone knows it was a full day hike. It was quoted in one of the original articles that there was very little shade and the temps had reached 109.

Doubt they planned a full day hike with the infant. After reading some of the PPs about dogs’ susceptibility to heat I wonder if the dog got into trouble first and that slowed the family down long enough for the heat to get to all of them. If they had to carry the dog and the baby they wouldn’t be moving very quickly (and possibly over exert themselves). Or one parent parent was struggling first and the other didn’t want to split up until it was too late.

Anonymous wrote:Doesn’t 911 actually work even in areas of no service? I guess I’m naive but I thought that 911 would often work in places where you can’t get “normal” service. You can also text 911….even if there isn’t service, isn’t there a chance the text would go through?

The text only goes through after the phone is moved into cell service range. As long as it has battery life that can be an hour later or 4 months later.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Murder suicide. Dad killed mom first (why she was found separately) then everyone else together.

And then put the baby back into his pack and sat down to die?

Also no wounds - no stabs, no bullets, no strangulation marks, no assault.

I think that’s what this was too. Family annihilation. So freaking sad.

Anonymous wrote:Murder suicide. Dad killed mom first (why she was found separately) then everyone else together.

And then put the baby back into his pack and sat down to die?

Also no wounds - no stabs, no bullets, no strangulation marks, no assault.