Anonymous
Post 07/12/2018 14:34     Subject: Who said there isn't a North-South divide?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:That's right. Every generation of SA parents have to learn this lesson. You always think it is on the verge of turning around. And in the meantime, your kids are stuck in these schools.


To be fair it happened to Hoffman Boston. You just have to understand it’s not because of who moved in, it’s because of who moved out. I think UMC can make a difference AFTER there has been a meaningful shift around the 50% farms mark. So all these poster clutching their pearls at moving the frl rate of all elementary schools at or below 50% should relax. I believe all schools would benefit from more umc buy in from that, moving the needle further in the right direction.


So, the first step is to get them to 50%, right? Once you do that with boundaries, buy-in becomes a much easier proposition for many UMC families.


That has been my point multiple times on this thread. Then I’m called stupid by someone from north Arlington.


Well, I have posted the same. For the highest poverty schools, a realistic goal is to tweak the boundaries just enough to get them around 50%. If that means some adjacent schools with fr/l under 40% go up, so be it. Waiting for under 30% across the board is not realistic. There is no way to accomplish this within a neighborhood school framework. And that isn't changing.


But we don't have a strictly neighborhood school framework. We also have option schools. We also COULD have admissions policies that include 25-30% seat set-asides for ED. 30% at every school isn't necessary; but half the schools at about 20% or less and half at 50% isn't the right way to go and isn't necessary, either.
Anonymous
Post 07/12/2018 14:28     Subject: Who said there isn't a North-South divide?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:That's right. Every generation of SA parents have to learn this lesson. You always think it is on the verge of turning around. And in the meantime, your kids are stuck in these schools.


To be fair it happened to Hoffman Boston. You just have to understand it’s not because of who moved in, it’s because of who moved out. I think UMC can make a difference AFTER there has been a meaningful shift around the 50% farms mark. So all these poster clutching their pearls at moving the frl rate of all elementary schools at or below 50% should relax. I believe all schools would benefit from more umc buy in from that, moving the needle further in the right direction.


So, the first step is to get them to 50%, right? Once you do that with boundaries, buy-in becomes a much easier proposition for many UMC families.


That has been my point multiple times on this thread. Then I’m called stupid by someone from north Arlington.


Actually, I think you were called stupid by someone in south arlington. More accurately, your proposal to make all south arlington schools 50% FRL stupid. It's not wise to raise the schools that have successfully turned around into 50% FRL again. I agree that Henry and Oakridge could use an increase in FRL; but I don't agree they should go to 50%. That merely starts to turn people away again. Once you've turned things around, you need to be very careful about how far you ratchet back. I don't believe either school would be concerned with a 30-37% max; but I suspect Oakridge in particular will start to have some panic attacks if it faces becoming Title I. We have multiple examples of what many have called "sweet spots" - schools in the 30-40% range that seem to appease parents on the academic side as well as the diversity side. The point is, if you raise them back to 50%, you're going to lose the buy-in rather than gain it. You've already got buy-in at those schools. You need to get it in the schools that are 50% and up. And that means boundaries and policies that lower %ages at those schools and raise it at schools that are 20% and below. There are enough of those schools within rippling-effect-of-thoughtful-boundaries-reach and the ability to relocate choice programs.
Anonymous
Post 07/12/2018 14:07     Subject: Who said there isn't a North-South divide?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:That's right. Every generation of SA parents have to learn this lesson. You always think it is on the verge of turning around. And in the meantime, your kids are stuck in these schools.


To be fair it happened to Hoffman Boston. You just have to understand it’s not because of who moved in, it’s because of who moved out. I think UMC can make a difference AFTER there has been a meaningful shift around the 50% farms mark. So all these poster clutching their pearls at moving the frl rate of all elementary schools at or below 50% should relax. I believe all schools would benefit from more umc buy in from that, moving the needle further in the right direction.


So, the first step is to get them to 50%, right? Once you do that with boundaries, buy-in becomes a much easier proposition for many UMC families.


That has been my point multiple times on this thread. Then I’m called stupid by someone from north Arlington.


Well, I have posted the same. For the highest poverty schools, a realistic goal is to tweak the boundaries just enough to get them around 50%. If that means some adjacent schools with fr/l under 40% go up, so be it. Waiting for under 30% across the board is not realistic. There is no way to accomplish this within a neighborhood school framework. And that isn't changing.
Anonymous
Post 07/12/2018 13:39     Subject: Who said there isn't a North-South divide?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:That's right. Every generation of SA parents have to learn this lesson. You always think it is on the verge of turning around. And in the meantime, your kids are stuck in these schools.


To be fair it happened to Hoffman Boston. You just have to understand it’s not because of who moved in, it’s because of who moved out. I think UMC can make a difference AFTER there has been a meaningful shift around the 50% farms mark. So all these poster clutching their pearls at moving the frl rate of all elementary schools at or below 50% should relax. I believe all schools would benefit from more umc buy in from that, moving the needle further in the right direction.


All schools would benefit, sure. But you won't see drastic turnarounds or 180-perception changes from the outside community that still looks at those stats - until those test scores top their own school's scores. One thing to remember about Hoffman Boston is how small the enrollment is. High poverty schools do better when they are small, which was one of the legitimate bases of complaints from some members of the Barcroft community when they were facing an addition to bring the school to 750 students. Highly unlikely the additional 200 (at the time) students were going to all be wealthy and fluent English speakers.

The real turnarounds are Oakridge and Henry. They have both the academic record and the public perception of high quality schools. That happened because of commitment and buy-in of families and leadership; but also corresponded to their decreasing FRL% rates - and not at 50%, rather as they approached 40% and lower. Abingdon is around 50% and is a fine school. But it does not have the reputation and recognition of Oakridge or Henry. And it's quite clear how people here feel about Barcroft, Randolph, and Carlin Springs at 60% and higher. Interestingly, Barrett never gets ragged on and its FRL is now higher than Barcroft's. But I still don't hear anyone angling to be redistricted to Barrett.


At least this gets to the heart of it. Most people aren’t willing to see their school
Slide backwards even a tiny bit. If they paid for a GS 8, they will be damned before they see it slip to a 6, even if only for a couple of years. Not even amongst parents in south Arlington, who claim they care about integrated schools.
Anonymous
Post 07/12/2018 13:19     Subject: Who said there isn't a North-South divide?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:That's right. Every generation of SA parents have to learn this lesson. You always think it is on the verge of turning around. And in the meantime, your kids are stuck in these schools.


To be fair it happened to Hoffman Boston. You just have to understand it’s not because of who moved in, it’s because of who moved out. I think UMC can make a difference AFTER there has been a meaningful shift around the 50% farms mark. So all these poster clutching their pearls at moving the frl rate of all elementary schools at or below 50% should relax. I believe all schools would benefit from more umc buy in from that, moving the needle further in the right direction.


So, the first step is to get them to 50%, right? Once you do that with boundaries, buy-in becomes a much easier proposition for many UMC families.


That has been my point multiple times on this thread. Then I’m called stupid by someone from north Arlington.
Anonymous
Post 07/12/2018 13:12     Subject: Who said there isn't a North-South divide?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:That's right. Every generation of SA parents have to learn this lesson. You always think it is on the verge of turning around. And in the meantime, your kids are stuck in these schools.


To be fair it happened to Hoffman Boston. You just have to understand it’s not because of who moved in, it’s because of who moved out. I think UMC can make a difference AFTER there has been a meaningful shift around the 50% farms mark. So all these poster clutching their pearls at moving the frl rate of all elementary schools at or below 50% should relax. I believe all schools would benefit from more umc buy in from that, moving the needle further in the right direction.


So, the first step is to get them to 50%, right? Once you do that with boundaries, buy-in becomes a much easier proposition for many UMC families.
Anonymous
Post 07/12/2018 13:10     Subject: Who said there isn't a North-South divide?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:That's right. Every generation of SA parents have to learn this lesson. You always think it is on the verge of turning around. And in the meantime, your kids are stuck in these schools.


To be fair it happened to Hoffman Boston. You just have to understand it’s not because of who moved in, it’s because of who moved out. I think UMC can make a difference AFTER there has been a meaningful shift around the 50% farms mark. So all these poster clutching their pearls at moving the frl rate of all elementary schools at or below 50% should relax. I believe all schools would benefit from more umc buy in from that, moving the needle further in the right direction.


All schools would benefit, sure. But you won't see drastic turnarounds or 180-perception changes from the outside community that still looks at those stats - until those test scores top their own school's scores. One thing to remember about Hoffman Boston is how small the enrollment is. High poverty schools do better when they are small, which was one of the legitimate bases of complaints from some members of the Barcroft community when they were facing an addition to bring the school to 750 students. Highly unlikely the additional 200 (at the time) students were going to all be wealthy and fluent English speakers.

The real turnarounds are Oakridge and Henry. They have both the academic record and the public perception of high quality schools. That happened because of commitment and buy-in of families and leadership; but also corresponded to their decreasing FRL% rates - and not at 50%, rather as they approached 40% and lower. Abingdon is around 50% and is a fine school. But it does not have the reputation and recognition of Oakridge or Henry. And it's quite clear how people here feel about Barcroft, Randolph, and Carlin Springs at 60% and higher. Interestingly, Barrett never gets ragged on and its FRL is now higher than Barcroft's. But I still don't hear anyone angling to be redistricted to Barrett.


Oakridge and Henry both have a much more ideal ratio of SFH to less expensive market rate and AH complexes. As the pp noted, nothing will ever balance out a 50 acre village like Barcroft apts.
Anonymous
Post 07/12/2018 13:08     Subject: Who said there isn't a North-South divide?
Anonymous wrote:

Why don't we just stop building CAFs entirely? They aren't going to be built north of Lee Highway, so at this point we're just working on building ghettos.


Its an industry that is totally baked into our local politics. Its a system, not a line item. I'm not saying it's corrupt but a lot of people's livelihoods depend o it. It's totally institutionalized.


That was hard for me to understand when I first moved here. Many young families are naive and assume their neighborhood school is going to naturally improve as more familes with kids move into Douglas Park, Alcova etc... as you become educated to the Arlington Way, you come to understand why that will never happen.
North Arlington homeowners are much more savvy when it come to this. That’s why Lee Highway has take so long to develop. They know what they are doing.

...so how do we fix it?

I mean, I am probably one of those naive people you are talking about. For every CAF though, more market rate housing is being built. I can't imagine everyone buying 1million + townhouses is going private...



There are 800 sfh’s in Douglas Park ( there about)
There are over 3,000’s low rent apts- and another 1000 more being planned for Barcroft apts...
I was naive too. I bought in DP right as they were finishing the renovations on West Village ( I think that’s that name/ corner of 4mile and Walter Reed). I was so cute back then. I thought the plan was to renovate all the way to South George Mason. I mean why wouldn’t they? Barcroft apts are old and crumbling. Certainly there was demand for more middle class housing? I’d laugh if I wasn’t crying. Not only is there no plan to upgrade those shitty apts, they have zoned them into perpetuity and are working on adding to them. Even if every single family household sent a kid to elementary school at Randolph ( not ever possible anywhere) it could never NEVER keep pace with those apts. They have 6 months leases and new families move in every day.
They would have to do something extreme to fix the Randolph/Barcroft elementary school boundary. I think they should. But whatever ...


What's the plan for adding 1000 AH to Barcroft apts? When/where? That has to be stopped.
There was an advocacy effort to restrict adding CAFs to school zones with more than 45% FRL One CB was willing to restrict in zones higher than 65%; but nobody else was interested in any moratorium because "what if another Presbyterian Church opportunity comes along?" Well, that's THE POINT! Those areas don't NEED another Presbyterian Church opportunity! MAKE opportunities in the 0-15% school zones.


It's in the Columbia Pike Neighborhoods Plan. It would be infill development within the Barcroft Apartments property on the S side of Columbia Pike. There are no specific proposals right now, but the Plan has laid the blueprint for future development. Not sure that it will ever come to pass, but the plans they have only further concentrate the density and poverty where it already exists.


Anonymous
Post 07/12/2018 12:51     Subject: Who said there isn't a North-South divide?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:That's right. Every generation of SA parents have to learn this lesson. You always think it is on the verge of turning around. And in the meantime, your kids are stuck in these schools.


To be fair it happened to Hoffman Boston. You just have to understand it’s not because of who moved in, it’s because of who moved out. I think UMC can make a difference AFTER there has been a meaningful shift around the 50% farms mark. So all these poster clutching their pearls at moving the frl rate of all elementary schools at or below 50% should relax. I believe all schools would benefit from more umc buy in from that, moving the needle further in the right direction.


All schools would benefit, sure. But you won't see drastic turnarounds or 180-perception changes from the outside community that still looks at those stats - until those test scores top their own school's scores. One thing to remember about Hoffman Boston is how small the enrollment is. High poverty schools do better when they are small, which was one of the legitimate bases of complaints from some members of the Barcroft community when they were facing an addition to bring the school to 750 students. Highly unlikely the additional 200 (at the time) students were going to all be wealthy and fluent English speakers.

The real turnarounds are Oakridge and Henry. They have both the academic record and the public perception of high quality schools. That happened because of commitment and buy-in of families and leadership; but also corresponded to their decreasing FRL% rates - and not at 50%, rather as they approached 40% and lower. Abingdon is around 50% and is a fine school. But it does not have the reputation and recognition of Oakridge or Henry. And it's quite clear how people here feel about Barcroft, Randolph, and Carlin Springs at 60% and higher. Interestingly, Barrett never gets ragged on and its FRL is now higher than Barcroft's. But I still don't hear anyone angling to be redistricted to Barrett.
Anonymous
Post 07/12/2018 12:41     Subject: Who said there isn't a North-South divide?


Why don't we just stop building CAFs entirely? They aren't going to be built north of Lee Highway, so at this point we're just working on building ghettos.


Its an industry that is totally baked into our local politics. Its a system, not a line item. I'm not saying it's corrupt but a lot of people's livelihoods depend o it. It's totally institutionalized.


That was hard for me to understand when I first moved here. Many young families are naive and assume their neighborhood school is going to naturally improve as more familes with kids move into Douglas Park, Alcova etc... as you become educated to the Arlington Way, you come to understand why that will never happen.
North Arlington homeowners are much more savvy when it come to this. That’s why Lee Highway has take so long to develop. They know what they are doing.

...so how do we fix it?

I mean, I am probably one of those naive people you are talking about. For every CAF though, more market rate housing is being built. I can't imagine everyone buying 1million + townhouses is going private...



There are 800 sfh’s in Douglas Park ( there about)
There are over 3,000’s low rent apts- and another 1000 more being planned for Barcroft apts...
I was naive too. I bought in DP right as they were finishing the renovations on West Village ( I think that’s that name/ corner of 4mile and Walter Reed). I was so cute back then. I thought the plan was to renovate all the way to South George Mason. I mean why wouldn’t they? Barcroft apts are old and crumbling. Certainly there was demand for more middle class housing? I’d laugh if I wasn’t crying. Not only is there no plan to upgrade those shitty apts, they have zoned them into perpetuity and are working on adding to them. Even if every single family household sent a kid to elementary school at Randolph ( not ever possible anywhere) it could never NEVER keep pace with those apts. They have 6 months leases and new families move in every day.
They would have to do something extreme to fix the Randolph/Barcroft elementary school boundary. I think they should. But whatever ...


What's the plan for adding 1000 AH to Barcroft apts? When/where? That has to be stopped.
There was an advocacy effort to restrict adding CAFs to school zones with more than 45% FRL One CB was willing to restrict in zones higher than 65%; but nobody else was interested in any moratorium because "what if another Presbyterian Church opportunity comes along?" Well, that's THE POINT! Those areas don't NEED another Presbyterian Church opportunity! MAKE opportunities in the 0-15% school zones.
Anonymous
Post 07/12/2018 12:39     Subject: Who said there isn't a North-South divide?
Anonymous wrote:That's right. Every generation of SA parents have to learn this lesson. You always think it is on the verge of turning around. And in the meantime, your kids are stuck in these schools.


Yup. Many people think they are kind of "pioneering" these neighborhoods but the truth is that people move away when elementary begins, and a young couple about to have their first child moves in. 5 years later the cycle repeats. There were 7 families with toddlers on my SA block two summers ago. They've all since scattered - to falls church, to NA, and to other states. many people just don't see the sense in paying such a high premium for housing served by what are, yes, good schools, but schools for whom UMC kids in SFH are not at all a priority. Factor in the equity growth almost everyone here has experienced since 2009 and its kind of hard to do otherwise. It's no ones fault, it's just the truth.
Anonymous
Post 07/12/2018 12:37     Subject: Who said there isn't a North-South divide?
Anonymous wrote:That's right. Every generation of SA parents have to learn this lesson. You always think it is on the verge of turning around. And in the meantime, your kids are stuck in these schools.


To be fair it happened to Hoffman Boston. You just have to understand it’s not because of who moved in, it’s because of who moved out. I think UMC can make a difference AFTER there has been a meaningful shift around the 50% farms mark. So all these poster clutching their pearls at moving the frl rate of all elementary schools at or below 50% should relax. I believe all schools would benefit from more umc buy in from that, moving the needle further in the right direction.
Anonymous
Post 07/12/2018 12:31     Subject: Who said there isn't a North-South divide?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:No it doesn’t. It’s one county. S Arlington is approximately 1/3 of the size of N Arlington. It’s an Arlington problem.


One that can't be addressed countywide without "busing." You can nibble at the edges with boundaries across 50, but not too much, and you will still probably end up with more schools closer to 50%. As I said before, this would be better than the current state of a couple of school (one of which IS in North Arlington) continuing to have poverty levels above 65%. Look at a map. You push SFH from Ashlawn into Carlin Springs, then you have to move some of the high density CAFs near Columbia Pike to an adjacent school. What are the adjacent schools? Barcroft (59%) or Abingdon (47%). I think it would have to be Anbjngdin if we're doing this for fr/l balancing. So, then you move some kids from Barcroft to Barrett? Well, the closest PUs to Barrett are the wealthiest part of Barcroft. So maybe you then push a few of the Buckingham PUs to Long Brach, bringing Barrett's fr/l percentage down from 65%, probably not all the way to 50% though, and Long Branch goes up a bit. But back to Barcroft, now who do you move into Barcroft to fill it? Can't move Alcova, they are already in the zone, for now. What else is adjacent? If you take some of Arlington Forest N to Barcroft, that takes higher income families out of Barrett. Then there's Randolph. Okay, so that's not going to help Barcroft with fr/l numbers. There is no way to move the kids around to adjacent boundaries that would get the numbers to the countywide averages, and if you're waiting for countywide busing, it'll never happen. I still say aiming for 50% for the current highest poverty schools is better than accepting a few outliers. 50% gives your school Title 1 money, plus 50% of the kids from non-disadvantaged homes. This is a good position to be in, and definitely better than a school that's around 80% fr/l with no PTA. If you want North Arlington to be part of this conversation, go to the CB and advocate for Affordable Housing in N Arlington outside of Buckingham, Courthouse, and Rosslyn. That's the only way this changes.


Why don't we just stop building CAFs entirely? They aren't going to be built north of Lee Highway, so at this point we're just working on building ghettos.


Its an industry that is totally baked into our local politics. Its a system, not a line item. I'm not saying it's corrupt but a lot of people's livelihoods depend o it. It's totally institutionalized.


That was hard for me to understand when I first moved here. Many young families are naive and assume their neighborhood school is going to naturally improve as more familes with kids move into Douglas Park, Alcova etc... as you become educated to the Arlington Way, you come to understand why that will never happen.
North Arlington homeowners are much more savvy when it come to this. That’s why Lee Highway has take so long to develop. They know what they are doing.

...so how do we fix it?

I mean, I am probably one of those naive people you are talking about. For every CAF though, more market rate housing is being built. I can't imagine everyone buying 1million + townhouses is going private...



There are 800 sfh’s in Douglas Park ( there about)
There are over 3,000’s low rent apts- and another 1000 more being planned for Barcroft apts...
I was naive too. I bought in DP right as they were finishing the renovations on West Village ( I think that’s that name/ corner of 4mile and Walter Reed). I was so cute back then. I thought the plan was to renovate all the way to South George Mason. I mean why wouldn’t they? Barcroft apts are old and crumbling. Certainly there was demand for more middle class housing? I’d laugh if I wasn’t crying. Not only is there no plan to upgrade those shitty apts, they have zoned them into perpetuity and are working on adding to them. Even if every single family household sent a kid to elementary school at Randolph ( not ever possible anywhere) it could never NEVER keep pace with those apts. They have 6 months leases and new families move in every day.
They would have to do something extreme to fix the Randolph/Barcroft elementary school boundary. I think they should. But whatever ...
Anonymous
Post 07/12/2018 11:57     Subject: Who said there isn't a North-South divide?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:No it doesn’t. It’s one county. S Arlington is approximately 1/3 of the size of N Arlington. It’s an Arlington problem.


One that can't be addressed countywide without "busing." You can nibble at the edges with boundaries across 50, but not too much, and you will still probably end up with more schools closer to 50%. As I said before, this would be better than the current state of a couple of school (one of which IS in North Arlington) continuing to have poverty levels above 65%. Look at a map. You push SFH from Ashlawn into Carlin Springs, then you have to move some of the high density CAFs near Columbia Pike to an adjacent school. What are the adjacent schools? Barcroft (59%) or Abingdon (47%). I think it would have to be Anbjngdin if we're doing this for fr/l balancing. So, then you move some kids from Barcroft to Barrett? Well, the closest PUs to Barrett are the wealthiest part of Barcroft. So maybe you then push a few of the Buckingham PUs to Long Brach, bringing Barrett's fr/l percentage down from 65%, probably not all the way to 50% though, and Long Branch goes up a bit. But back to Barcroft, now who do you move into Barcroft to fill it? Can't move Alcova, they are already in the zone, for now. What else is adjacent? If you take some of Arlington Forest N to Barcroft, that takes higher income families out of Barrett. Then there's Randolph. Okay, so that's not going to help Barcroft with fr/l numbers. There is no way to move the kids around to adjacent boundaries that would get the numbers to the countywide averages, and if you're waiting for countywide busing, it'll never happen. I still say aiming for 50% for the current highest poverty schools is better than accepting a few outliers. 50% gives your school Title 1 money, plus 50% of the kids from non-disadvantaged homes. This is a good position to be in, and definitely better than a school that's around 80% fr/l with no PTA. If you want North Arlington to be part of this conversation, go to the CB and advocate for Affordable Housing in N Arlington outside of Buckingham, Courthouse, and Rosslyn. That's the only way this changes.


Why don't we just stop building CAFs entirely? They aren't going to be built north of Lee Highway, so at this point we're just working on building ghettos.


Its an industry that is totally baked into our local politics. Its a system, not a line item. I'm not saying it's corrupt but a lot of people's livelihoods depend o it. It's totally institutionalized.


That was hard for me to understand when I first moved here. Many young families are naive and assume their neighborhood school is going to naturally improve as more familes with kids move into Douglas Park, Alcova etc... as you become educated to the Arlington Way, you come to understand why that will never happen.
North Arlington homeowners are much more savvy when it come to this. That’s why Lee Highway has take so long to develop. They know what they are doing.

...so how do we fix it?

I mean, I am probably one of those naive people you are talking about. For every CAF though, more market rate housing is being built. I can't imagine everyone buying 1million + townhouses is going private...
Anonymous
Post 07/12/2018 11:55     Subject: Who said there isn't a North-South divide?
That's right. Every generation of SA parents have to learn this lesson. You always think it is on the verge of turning around. And in the meantime, your kids are stuck in these schools.