Anonymous
01/10/2016 22:30
Subject: Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Wearing the hijab for modesty causes less destruction in society than the wanton, reckless, immediate gratification and satisfaction of lust. We see this in teenage pregnancies, adultery, STDs, broken families that result, cancer, broken lives.
I do not respect such behavior but you still have the right to engage in it. Normally I do not voice my opinions about this and follow a live and let live philosophy, but if you think its fine for you to criticize women who choose to wear hijab, then its fine for you to hear about destructive western behavior.
How did you leap from our Ann Taylor working woman who has several partners before settling down, to making her into a teen mom with STDs? These things don't follow. This is another false dichotomy.
You mention divorce rates, but they're quite high in Muslim countries. The veil doesn't stop men from thinking they can do better. Or from taking another wife (many of us think polygamy is destructive, but that's not our topic here.)
We agree teen pregnancies are destructive. But speaking of teen pregnancies, many Muslim countries allow girls to be married at quite young ages. You condemn teen pregnancies, but do you support marriage at such young ages?
STDs, while awful, are generally treatable.
Like others here, I don't think the veil is a good tradeoff. While I think kids shouldn't have sex at young ages, I'd prefer a solution that involves freer access to condoms than, effectively, putting a condom over my entire daughter.
When the United States had mostly teen brides (pioneer days for example) we had fewer unwed teen mothers for sure. But we probably had for more teens having sex and babies back then than we do now. I am sure that is true for the muslim world as well. Very likely with so many teen and young girls marrying in those countries, they have just as many if not more teen girls having sex and babies than in the United States. They just happened to be married 14, 15 & 16 year olds as opposed to unmarried high school students.
I checked and even though I lived in the Middle East, I found it surprising how high the average age at marriage is. The average age of marriage of females in the US is about 27. In the Middle East, this age is exceeded in Algeria, Dijbouti, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, and Tunisia. The lowest is Yemen at 22. Egypt, Iraq, and Iran are all around 23.
https://www.quandl.com/collections/demography/age-at-first-marriage-female-by-country
Apparently there is a marriage crisis in the Middle East--men must pay for all the costs of the wedding and furnishing an apartment, and are expected to be able to support their wives, although understandably in light of high male unemployment there is a new bias towards women who can bring in an income. This has resulted in delayed marriage for both men and women.
Anonymous
01/10/2016 22:01
Subject: Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:12:45 and 12:40 show this is not just innocent curiosity or legitimate concern about hijab.
I leave you to keep filling these pages with more public encouragement to hate Muslims and Islam.
As if there wasn't enough divisiveness and hatred to go around...
Peace!
I think the sheer length of this thread shows how many people are genuinely interested in Islam and are trying to answer their questions about it. I have been impressed by a lot of different pps' knowledge and have learned a lot. This is genuinely one of the most educational threads I have read on this site.
I am one of the contributors, and I thank you for this comment. I like that the thread attracted a variety of views and that while people had strong opinions for the most part they backed them up and did not resort to name calling or other low forms of argumentation.
After seeing how an Islam thread did on the political forum, it is good to see that civil discussion on a controversial subject can be had on this forum.
Anonymous
01/10/2016 16:32
Subject: Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Wearing the hijab for modesty causes less destruction in society than the wanton, reckless, immediate gratification and satisfaction of lust. We see this in teenage pregnancies, adultery, STDs, broken families that result, cancer, broken lives.
I do not respect such behavior but you still have the right to engage in it. Normally I do not voice my opinions about this and follow a live and let live philosophy, but if you think its fine for you to criticize women who choose to wear hijab, then its fine for you to hear about destructive western behavior.
How did you leap from our Ann Taylor working woman who has several partners before settling down, to making her into a teen mom with STDs? These things don't follow. This is another false dichotomy.
You mention divorce rates, but they're quite high in Muslim countries. The veil doesn't stop men from thinking they can do better. Or from taking another wife (many of us think polygamy is destructive, but that's not our topic here.)
We agree teen pregnancies are destructive. But speaking of teen pregnancies, many Muslim countries allow girls to be married at quite young ages. You condemn teen pregnancies, but do you support marriage at such young ages?
STDs, while awful, are generally treatable.
Like others here, I don't think the veil is a good tradeoff. While I think kids shouldn't have sex at young ages, I'd prefer a solution that involves freer access to condoms than, effectively, putting a condom over my entire daughter.
When the United States had mostly teen brides (pioneer days for example) we had fewer unwed teen mothers for sure. But we probably had for more teens having sex and babies back then than we do now. I am sure that is true for the muslim world as well. Very likely with so many teen and young girls marrying in those countries, they have just as many if not more teen girls having sex and babies than in the United States. They just happened to be married 14, 15 & 16 year olds as opposed to unmarried high school students.
Anonymous
01/10/2016 15:39
Subject: Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
Anonymous wrote:12:45 and 12:40 show this is not just innocent curiosity or legitimate concern about hijab.
I leave you to keep filling these pages with more public encouragement to hate Muslims and Islam.
As if there wasn't enough divisiveness and hatred to go around...
Peace!
I think the sheer length of this thread shows how many people are genuinely interested in Islam and are trying to answer their questions about it. I have been impressed by a lot of different pps' knowledge and have learned a lot. This is genuinely one of the most educational threads I have read on this site.
Anonymous
01/08/2016 11:39
Subject: Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
^^^ ugh, typos! EPA Administrator or Secretary of State or Labor
Anonymous
01/08/2016 11:38
Subject: Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Wearing the hijab for modesty causes less destruction in society than the wanton, reckless, immediate gratification and satisfaction of lust. We see this in teenage pregnancies, adultery, STDs, broken families that result, cancer, broken lives.
I do not respect such behavior but you still have the right to engage in it. Normally I do not voice my opinions about this and follow a live and let live philosophy, but if you think its fine for you to criticize women who choose to wear hijab, then its fine for you to hear about destructive western behavior.
I agree with you pp. Teenage pregnancies, adultery, STDs, are all bad. I don't know what cancer (?) has to do with it, maybe you mean HPV? Anyway, I managed to wait to have sex until I was married, and so did my husband, all the while wearing whatever I like. Swimsuits, shorts, the whole shebang. Being sexually conservative has NOTHING to do with hijab. Nothing! Look at the problems we have in many Muslim countries: an epidemic of unreported rapes from strangers and known people alike, sexual assault of women in the street, leering and catcalling women in the street, disrespect of women and their place in society. Plus, from what I saw living in a Muslim country, people still "indulged" their lusts, they just did so in secret. What exactly is better about living in that kind of society? I will take the teenage pregnancies over that, thanks.
For every woman that dressed in bikinis, booty short, regular shorts, whatever, yet maintained her virginity and morality I can find you twenty more that did not. For every hijabi woman that was secretly promiscuous I can find you twenty that were not.
Again, pp, would you rather live in a country where women are assaulted in the street in broad daylight, a country that has an unreported rape epidemic- or a country full of non-virgins? I know which I would choose.
NP, but why doe sit have to be either or?
Hijab-defending pp is presenting a false dichotomy- that our choices are hijab-wearing piety or "lustful" western countries where all the teenagers are pregnant and everyone has some sort of sex-induced cancer. Having lived in a Muslim country where most of the women wore hijab, even IF her characterization were true, I would STILL choose the Western country.
I would never live in a country were woman wear a Tichel but Im ok with a hijab. In fact Iran is looking pretty good, they have a woman Vice President, something the US has yet to accomplish.
There are 12 vice presidents in Iran. Only the first VP is what would be equivalent to our VP. The woman VP heads, what else?, the Center for Women and Family Participation Affairs
LIAR
VP Masoumeh Ebtekar is head of Iran’s Environmental Protection Organization, shame on you.
Not the poster you're trying to shame, but if you posted that a woman is VP Iran and intended to imply that it's similar to a VP in the US (which readers here would naturally assume), then you're misleading people. The position you describe seems more like what would be, in the US, EPA Admibistrator or Secretary of State of Labor (both of which positions have already been held by women).
FWIW, France's Perkins served as US Secretary of Labor in the 1930s.
Anonymous
01/08/2016 11:24
Subject: Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Wearing the hijab for modesty causes less destruction in society than the wanton, reckless, immediate gratification and satisfaction of lust. We see this in teenage pregnancies, adultery, STDs, broken families that result, cancer, broken lives.
I do not respect such behavior but you still have the right to engage in it. Normally I do not voice my opinions about this and follow a live and let live philosophy, but if you think its fine for you to criticize women who choose to wear hijab, then its fine for you to hear about destructive western behavior.
I agree with you pp. Teenage pregnancies, adultery, STDs, are all bad. I don't know what cancer (?) has to do with it, maybe you mean HPV? Anyway, I managed to wait to have sex until I was married, and so did my husband, all the while wearing whatever I like. Swimsuits, shorts, the whole shebang. Being sexually conservative has NOTHING to do with hijab. Nothing! Look at the problems we have in many Muslim countries: an epidemic of unreported rapes from strangers and known people alike, sexual assault of women in the street, leering and catcalling women in the street, disrespect of women and their place in society. Plus, from what I saw living in a Muslim country, people still "indulged" their lusts, they just did so in secret. What exactly is better about living in that kind of society? I will take the teenage pregnancies over that, thanks.
For every woman that dressed in bikinis, booty short, regular shorts, whatever, yet maintained her virginity and morality I can find you twenty more that did not. For every hijabi woman that was secretly promiscuous I can find you twenty that were not.
Again, pp, would you rather live in a country where women are assaulted in the street in broad daylight, a country that has an unreported rape epidemic- or a country full of non-virgins? I know which I would choose.
NP, but why doe sit have to be either or?
Hijab-defending pp is presenting a false dichotomy- that our choices are hijab-wearing piety or "lustful" western countries where all the teenagers are pregnant and everyone has some sort of sex-induced cancer. Having lived in a Muslim country where most of the women wore hijab, even IF her characterization were true, I would STILL choose the Western country.
I would never live in a country were woman wear a Tichel but Im ok with a hijab. In fact Iran is looking pretty good, they have a woman Vice President, something the US has yet to accomplish.
There are 12 vice presidents in Iran. Only the first VP is what would be equivalent to our VP. The woman VP heads, what else?, the Center for Women and Family Participation Affairs
LIAR
VP Masoumeh Ebtekar is head of Iran’s Environmental Protection Organization, shame on you.
Anonymous
01/08/2016 10:54
Subject: Re:Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
I a muslim woman who posted early on in this thread. I have to say the self-righteousness of the hijab defender(s) is really off-putting. I believe in tolerance and free-will, and will always defend the right of any woman to wear one. However, as many in this thread have pointed out, it has become a symbol of a doctrinaire, oppressive, intolerant version of Islam that many of us liberal Muslims abhor.
Anonymous
01/07/2016 16:37
Subject: Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Wearing the hijab for modesty causes less destruction in society than the wanton, reckless, immediate gratification and satisfaction of lust. We see this in teenage pregnancies, adultery, STDs, broken families that result, cancer, broken lives.
I do not respect such behavior but you still have the right to engage in it. Normally I do not voice my opinions about this and follow a live and let live philosophy, but if you think its fine for you to criticize women who choose to wear hijab, then its fine for you to hear about destructive western behavior.
I agree with you pp. Teenage pregnancies, adultery, STDs, are all bad. I don't know what cancer (?) has to do with it, maybe you mean HPV? Anyway, I managed to wait to have sex until I was married, and so did my husband, all the while wearing whatever I like. Swimsuits, shorts, the whole shebang. Being sexually conservative has NOTHING to do with hijab. Nothing! Look at the problems we have in many Muslim countries: an epidemic of unreported rapes from strangers and known people alike, sexual assault of women in the street, leering and catcalling women in the street, disrespect of women and their place in society. Plus, from what I saw living in a Muslim country, people still "indulged" their lusts, they just did so in secret. What exactly is better about living in that kind of society? I will take the teenage pregnancies over that, thanks.
For every woman that dressed in bikinis, booty short, regular shorts, whatever, yet maintained her virginity and morality I can find you twenty more that did not. For every hijabi woman that was secretly promiscuous I can find you twenty that were not.
Again, pp, would you rather live in a country where women are assaulted in the street in broad daylight, a country that has an unreported rape epidemic- or a country full of non-virgins? I know which I would choose.
NP, but why doe sit have to be either or?
Hijab-defending pp is presenting a false dichotomy- that our choices are hijab-wearing piety or "lustful" western countries where all the teenagers are pregnant and everyone has some sort of sex-induced cancer. Having lived in a Muslim country where most of the women wore hijab, even IF her characterization were true, I would STILL choose the Western country.
I would never live in a country were woman wear a Tichel but Im ok with a hijab. In fact Iran is looking pretty good, they have a woman Vice President, something the US has yet to accomplish.
There are 12 vice presidents in Iran. Only the first VP is what would be equivalent to our VP. The woman VP heads, what else?, the Center for Women and Family Participation Affairs
The US has had many women department secretaties: State, Labor, HHS, Justice.
Anonymous
01/07/2016 15:03
Subject: Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
Anonymous wrote:Wearing the hijab for modesty causes less destruction in society than the wanton, reckless, immediate gratification and satisfaction of lust. We see this in teenage pregnancies, adultery, STDs, broken families that result, cancer, broken lives.
I do not respect such behavior but you still have the right to engage in it. Normally I do not voice my opinions about this and follow a live and let live philosophy, but if you think its fine for you to criticize women who choose to wear hijab, then its fine for you to hear about destructive western behavior.
How did you leap from our Ann Taylor working woman who has several partners before settling down, to making her into a teen mom with STDs? These things don't follow. This is another false dichotomy.
You mention divorce rates, but they're quite high in Muslim countries. The veil doesn't stop men from thinking they can do better. Or from taking another wife (many of us think polygamy is destructive, but that's not our topic here.)
We agree teen pregnancies are destructive. But speaking of teen pregnancies, many Muslim countries allow girls to be married at quite young ages. You condemn teen pregnancies, but do you support marriage at such young ages?
STDs, while awful, are generally treatable.
Like others here, I don't think the veil is a good tradeoff. While I think kids shouldn't have sex at young ages, I'd prefer a solution that involves freer access to condoms than, effectively, putting a condom over my entire daughter.
Anonymous
01/07/2016 14:27
Subject: Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
Anonymous wrote:12:45 and 12:40 show this is not just innocent curiosity or legitimate concern about hijab.
I leave you to keep filling these pages with more public encouragement to hate Muslims and Islam.
As if there wasn't enough divisiveness and hatred to go around...
Peace!
Au contraire.
I am an Islamophone and absolutely abhor how the rise on anti-intellectual Islamic extremism is undermining a religion that in the past gave rise to great intellectual advancements as well as to a class of truly spiritual people. All of this focus on outward things like hijabs and getting people to think this makes one spiritual or pious is reducing Islam to the most superficial--and unfounded--of elements.
I do not recognize this religion at all anymore, nor do many of my Muslim friends who came of age in a more moderate time before Islam became a political tool for misleading the masses.
Anonymous
01/07/2016 14:01
Subject: Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
12:45 and 12:40 show this is not just innocent curiosity or legitimate concern about hijab.
I leave you to keep filling these pages with more public encouragement to hate Muslims and Islam.
As if there wasn't enough divisiveness and hatred to go around...
Peace!
I leave you to keep filling these pages with more public encouragement to hate Muslims and Islam.
As if there wasn't enough divisiveness and hatred to go around...
Peace!
Anonymous
01/07/2016 13:38
Subject: Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Wearing the hijab for modesty causes less destruction in society than the wanton, reckless, immediate gratification and satisfaction of lust. We see this in teenage pregnancies, adultery, STDs, broken families that result, cancer, broken lives.
I do not respect such behavior but you still have the right to engage in it. Normally I do not voice my opinions about this and follow a live and let live philosophy, but if you think its fine for you to criticize women who choose to wear hijab, then its fine for you to hear about destructive western behavior.
I agree with you pp. Teenage pregnancies, adultery, STDs, are all bad. I don't know what cancer (?) has to do with it, maybe you mean HPV? Anyway, I managed to wait to have sex until I was married, and so did my husband, all the while wearing whatever I like. Swimsuits, shorts, the whole shebang. Being sexually conservative has NOTHING to do with hijab. Nothing! Look at the problems we have in many Muslim countries: an epidemic of unreported rapes from strangers and known people alike, sexual assault of women in the street, leering and catcalling women in the street, disrespect of women and their place in society. Plus, from what I saw living in a Muslim country, people still "indulged" their lusts, they just did so in secret. What exactly is better about living in that kind of society? I will take the teenage pregnancies over that, thanks.
For every woman that dressed in bikinis, booty short, regular shorts, whatever, yet maintained her virginity and morality I can find you twenty more that did not. For every hijabi woman that was secretly promiscuous I can find you twenty that were not.
Again, pp, would you rather live in a country where women are assaulted in the street in broad daylight, a country that has an unreported rape epidemic- or a country full of non-virgins? I know which I would choose.
You're shifting here. We didn't start this thread to answer that question.
Anonymous
01/07/2016 12:45
Subject: Re:Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
Is it hijab defending PP's position that there was more immorality, social ills, cancer etc. in the Middle East 30 years ago when almost no women wore the hijab, but rather wore either western dress or traditional dress (which did NOT involve a hijab--just a light veil over the head with plenty of hair showing)?
From what I have seen it has gotten far, far worse in the Middle East and one could even correlate the rise of harassment of women, crimes against them etc with the rise of the hijab.
(I am of course excepting the Gulf countries from this as they had for many decades been shrouded in abayas and niqabs.)
From what I have seen it has gotten far, far worse in the Middle East and one could even correlate the rise of harassment of women, crimes against them etc with the rise of the hijab.
(I am of course excepting the Gulf countries from this as they had for many decades been shrouded in abayas and niqabs.)
Anonymous
01/07/2016 12:40
Subject: Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Wearing the hijab for modesty causes less destruction in society than the wanton, reckless, immediate gratification and satisfaction of lust. We see this in teenage pregnancies, adultery, STDs, broken families that result, cancer, broken lives.
I do not respect such behavior but you still have the right to engage in it. Normally I do not voice my opinions about this and follow a live and let live philosophy, but if you think its fine for you to criticize women who choose to wear hijab, then its fine for you to hear about destructive western behavior.
I agree with you pp. Teenage pregnancies, adultery, STDs, are all bad. I don't know what cancer (?) has to do with it, maybe you mean HPV? Anyway, I managed to wait to have sex until I was married, and so did my husband, all the while wearing whatever I like. Swimsuits, shorts, the whole shebang. Being sexually conservative has NOTHING to do with hijab. Nothing! Look at the problems we have in many Muslim countries: an epidemic of unreported rapes from strangers and known people alike, sexual assault of women in the street, leering and catcalling women in the street, disrespect of women and their place in society. Plus, from what I saw living in a Muslim country, people still "indulged" their lusts, they just did so in secret. What exactly is better about living in that kind of society? I will take the teenage pregnancies over that, thanks.
For every woman that dressed in bikinis, booty short, regular shorts, whatever, yet maintained her virginity and morality I can find you twenty more that did not. For every hijabi woman that was secretly promiscuous I can find you twenty that were not.
Again, pp, would you rather live in a country where women are assaulted in the street in broad daylight, a country that has an unreported rape epidemic- or a country full of non-virgins? I know which I would choose.
NP, but why doe sit have to be either or?
Hijab-defending pp is presenting a false dichotomy- that our choices are hijab-wearing piety or "lustful" western countries where all the teenagers are pregnant and everyone has some sort of sex-induced cancer. Having lived in a Muslim country where most of the women wore hijab, even IF her characterization were true, I would STILL choose the Western country.
I would never live in a country were woman wear a Tichel but Im ok with a hijab. In fact Iran is looking pretty good, they have a woman Vice President, something the US has yet to accomplish.
There are 12 vice presidents in Iran. Only the first VP is what would be equivalent to our VP. The woman VP heads, what else?, the Center for Women and Family Participation Affairs