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Anonymous wrote:The fact that the whiners cannot explain away is why HPYSM did so well while so many other high brow schools did not. If the methodology is a complete sham or just random, HPYSM would not constitute half of the top 10. Further, other top universities and LACs make the top 10, top 20, and top 50. Again, this is not random. The head scratching and consternation is really around a set of “treasured” schools that didn’t perform well. Perhaps, it would be better to understand why those didn’t perform well instead of assailing the methodology.

As for the methodology, it is not primarily a survey. That’s just a weak way of dismissing the results. What people seem to struggle with most is the comparison of student outcomes to expectations. Expectations account for two things: the quality of the student body and the regional cost of living. So, a Williams or Amherst faces more headwinds than Kenyon. Yet, there is no guarantee that Kenyon will punch above its weight. What’s eye opening is that HPYSM have probably the highest expectations hurdle, and yet, they jumped it - big time! Claremont McKenna and Davidson also standout here. Take note.

Are you serious? All they needed to do was build this Frankenstein of a “study” from the bottom up, engineering the assumptions to ensure that none of the HYPSM institutions fell outside the Top 10 (knowing how hyper-fixated many are on this small group) to lend empty validity to their work for consumers like you.

Ok, so now we have a conspiracy theory, but what’s the motivation? Sounds nuts.

The motivation as the pp explained is to lend some "credibility" to gullible parents by at least keeping HYP on the top ten list. I work in the statistical sphere--assumptions can be manipulated in any which way and form to get the results you want. Consumers have to pay careful attention to the methodology and assumptions used, otherwise you will be taken for a ride. Parents currently are so obsessed with rankings it's a profitable business. They can't all produce the same rankings so they manipulate the assumptions. They keep HYP there to keep you happy that it is a "legitimate" ranking because they know you will not read the fine print.

This doesn’t make sense. The WSJ and its readers are serious people. Yes, they respect a ranking that acknowledges the strengths of HPYSM, but do you really think that the WSJ wants to offer its audience clickbait? Also, many other prestigious schools are listed high in the rankings. Maybe not as high as some would like, but considering the total number of schools out there, their placement is fine. Just because someone could engineer a thoughtless, stupid ranking, doesn’t mean that a publication like the WSJ would. Finally, this is not the WSJ’s first go at college rankings. What motivation would they have to suddenly dupe people?

A better use of your statistical knowledge might be to better understand why particular schools scored how they did instead of arguing that the WSJ has committed professional suicide without explaining how or why.

Do you really think it’s reasonable to ask others to consider the why of how NYU ended up ranked 275+ places lower in a published ranking than Babson College?

NYU’s poor ranking may be fairly straightforward. First, the college resides in NYC - a HCOL area - so the expected salary outcome is high. That is, NYU student outcomes are judged by the standard of the college’s location, so a bunch of kids getting Wall Street jobs, per se, doesn’t represent a good outcome; it’s expected. Second, NYU’s cost of attendance is atrocious. The school is very expensive and relative to other similar schools, their financial aid is poor. Third, NYU kids (at least those who report them) have great test scores. So, the students are expected to have great outcomes. Fourth, while NYU students get jobs in NYC, it’s my perception that, on average, they don’t get the highest paying and most prestigious jobs. Sum it all up and NYU outcomes are average for NYC metro and really smart kids, yet families pay a ton for their kids to attend there.

Compare that summation to NYU’s intracity rival, Columbia, which ranked highly. Columbia faces the same expectation hurdles of HCOL NYC and smart students, but their kids get the BEST jobs in NYC and the average cost of attendance is decreased by better FA. The result? Columbia gives a better bang for the buck and gets a high rating

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Anonymous wrote:I've never heard of 2 schools in the Top 10 (Babson, Claremont McKenna).

Guessing I can't afford those anyway.

You probably can’t. Babson is about $80k a year. Babson is also ranked among the top 100 most selective colleges in the U.S. by the U.S. News & World Report.

Some of you are so provincial.

+1
I do have to laugh at all the posters outraged because they've "never heard of Babson." It's a niche business school with a 22% acceptance rate.

It is a business only college that draws many international students who come from rich family businesses. The job outcomes are excellent. The college is small so the job placement for their student body is excellent.

Not every kid from UVA has an awesome job after graduation. My neighbor’s child majored in liberal arts from UPEnn and is home jobless. I’m sure if you compared Wharton to Babson, Wharton would win but not all of UPenn.

Since Babson is business only, it should only be compared to other business schools. This analysis compares business schools and shows Babson at 42 among schools with BBAs. Locally, it is behind UVA, Georgetown, William and Mary, and UMD despite being ahead of all of them in WSJ.

https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/business/

The same way people here have never heard of Babson, I never heard of W&M. I didn’t even know W&M had a business major.

I’m not so concerned about rankings. All I know is that the kids from Babson are usually rich and have good jobs after graduation. The rich probably helped them more than the actual college. The school is known for entrepreneurship.

Considering there are like 5 threads per week on William & Mary, I find it hard to believe you have never heard of it unless you are also claiming this is the first time you have visited DCUM.

When I lived in Boston, I never heard of W&M. We are from NY.

I don’t want my kids to go to Babson or W&M. I was just commenting that Babson has strong outcomes. That is all. It is known for rich international students.

Frankly, that's insane. I'm from NE. W&M was commonly on the application list at my Greenwich, CT HS. Family in Boston all knew about it.

It's the 2nd oldest university in the nation for crying out loud. I tihnk it says more about posters than the actual school.

Transylvania college is old too

+1

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Anonymous wrote:I've never heard of 2 schools in the Top 10 (Babson, Claremont McKenna).

Guessing I can't afford those anyway.

You probably can’t. Babson is about $80k a year. Babson is also ranked among the top 100 most selective colleges in the U.S. by the U.S. News & World Report.

Some of you are so provincial.

+1
I do have to laugh at all the posters outraged because they've "never heard of Babson." It's a niche business school with a 22% acceptance rate.

It is a business only college that draws many international students who come from rich family businesses. The job outcomes are excellent. The college is small so the job placement for their student body is excellent.

Not every kid from UVA has an awesome job after graduation. My neighbor’s child majored in liberal arts from UPEnn and is home jobless. I’m sure if you compared Wharton to Babson, Wharton would win but not all of UPenn.

Since Babson is business only, it should only be compared to other business schools. This analysis compares business schools and shows Babson at 42 among schools with BBAs. Locally, it is behind UVA, Georgetown, William and Mary, and UMD despite being ahead of all of them in WSJ.

https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/business/

The same way people here have never heard of Babson, I never heard of W&M. I didn’t even know W&M had a business major.

I’m not so concerned about rankings. All I know is that the kids from Babson are usually rich and have good jobs after graduation. The rich probably helped them more than the actual college. The school is known for entrepreneurship.

Considering there are like 5 threads per week on William & Mary, I find it hard to believe you have never heard of it unless you are also claiming this is the first time you have visited DCUM.

When I lived in Boston, I never heard of W&M. We are from NY.

I don’t want my kids to go to Babson or W&M. I was just commenting that Babson has strong outcomes. That is all. It is known for rich international students.

Frankly, that's insane. I'm from NE. W&M was commonly on the application list at my Greenwich, CT HS. Family in Boston all knew about it.

It's the 2nd oldest university in the nation for crying out loud. I tihnk it says more about posters than the actual school.

Transylvania college is old too

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Anonymous wrote:Never heard of William & Mary? Don't you people have radios that play Steely Dan songs?

Or maybe you did and took it literally?

That line does not refer to the college smh

It does and it doesn't. The bust incident occurred at Bard. Bard's syllables that fit the lyrics like William and Mary.

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Anonymous wrote:Never heard of William & Mary? Don't you people have radios that play Steely Dan songs?

Or maybe you did and took it literally?

That line does not refer to the college smh

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Anonymous wrote:WM was well known at my rural high school in the 80s in DE. I knew about it just from reading history books. Maybe watch more Jeopardy? "William & Mary has been a clue or answer more than 70 times during regular play rounds — including six times as a Daily Double clue."

+1

and it's always been in a clash with Harvard about getting the 'first university in the US' title. It was the first college to become a university.

Anyone savvy about colleges has heard of it. My lord! We heard of it in the Midwest in the 80s.

The College of William & Mary calls itself "the second-oldest institution of higher learning in the country", acknowledging Harvard's claim but adding that: "Harvard may have opened first, but William & Mary was already planned. Original 1619 plans for W&M called for a campus at Henrico." This refers to the College of Henricopolis or University of Henrico established by the Virginia Company near Richmond, Virginia. With respect to the title of first university in America, it makes the claim on its website that "in 1781, by uniting the faculties of law, medicine, and the arts, William & Mary became America's first true university."[ It also is the "First institution of higher education to have a law school, which made us the first college in the country to become a university (1779)".

Harvard, William and Mary, and Yale were organized on the plans of the English colleges which constitute the universities of Oxford and Cambridge.

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Anonymous wrote:I've never heard of 2 schools in the Top 10 (Babson, Claremont McKenna).

Guessing I can't afford those anyway.

You probably can’t. Babson is about $80k a year. Babson is also ranked among the top 100 most selective colleges in the U.S. by the U.S. News & World Report.

Some of you are so provincial.

+1
I do have to laugh at all the posters outraged because they've "never heard of Babson." It's a niche business school with a 22% acceptance rate.

It is a business only college that draws many international students who come from rich family businesses. The job outcomes are excellent. The college is small so the job placement for their student body is excellent.

Not every kid from UVA has an awesome job after graduation. My neighbor’s child majored in liberal arts from UPEnn and is home jobless. I’m sure if you compared Wharton to Babson, Wharton would win but not all of UPenn.

Since Babson is business only, it should only be compared to other business schools. This analysis compares business schools and shows Babson at 42 among schools with BBAs. Locally, it is behind UVA, Georgetown, William and Mary, and UMD despite being ahead of all of them in WSJ.

https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/business/

The same way people here have never heard of Babson, I never heard of W&M. I didn’t even know W&M had a business major.

I’m not so concerned about rankings. All I know is that the kids from Babson are usually rich and have good jobs after graduation. The rich probably helped them more than the actual college. The school is known for entrepreneurship.

Considering there are like 5 threads per week on William & Mary, I find it hard to believe you have never heard of it unless you are also claiming this is the first time you have visited DCUM.

When I lived in Boston, I never heard of W&M. We are from NY.

I don’t want my kids to go to Babson or W&M. I was just commenting that Babson has strong outcomes. That is all. It is known for rich international students.

Frankly, that's insane. I'm from NE. W&M was commonly on the application list at my Greenwich, CT HS. Family in Boston all knew about it.

It's the 2nd oldest university in the nation for crying out loud. I tihnk it says more about posters than the actual school.

Anonymous wrote:Never heard of William & Mary? Don't you people have radios that play Steely Dan songs?

Or maybe you did and took it literally?

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Anonymous wrote:Top 20 for those interested without subscriptions:
1: Princeton
2: Babson
3: Stanford
4: Yale
5: Claremont McKenna
6: MIT
7: Harvard
8: Berkeley
9: Georgia Tech
10: Davidson
11: Bentley
12: UC Davis
13: Penn
14: Columbia
15: Lehigh
16: San Jose State
17: Notre Dame
18: UC Merced
19: Virginia Tech
20: Harvey Mudd

I kind of like the list - very pre-professional focused and makes sense for the type who read WSJ. Methodology is 70% Student Outcomes, 20% Learning Environment, and 10% Diversity, with each of those broken up with different metrics.

Diversity has zero to do with learning or outcomes. It has no place in rankings.

Anonymous wrote:Top 20 for those interested without subscriptions:
1: Princeton
2: Babson
3: Stanford
4: Yale
5: Claremont McKenna
6: MIT
7: Harvard
8: Berkeley
9: Georgia Tech
10: Davidson
11: Bentley
12: UC Davis
13: Penn
14: Columbia
15: Lehigh
16: San Jose State
17: Notre Dame
18: UC Merced
19: Virginia Tech
20: Harvey Mudd

I kind of like the list - very pre-professional focused and makes sense for the type who read WSJ. Methodology is 70% Student Outcomes, 20% Learning Environment, and 10% Diversity, with each of those broken up with different metrics.

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Anonymous wrote:WM was well known at my rural high school in the 80s in DE. I knew about it just from reading history books. Maybe watch more Jeopardy? "William & Mary has been a clue or answer more than 70 times during regular play rounds — including six times as a Daily Double clue."

+1

and it's always been in a clash with Harvard about getting the 'first university in the US' title. It was the first college to become a university.

Anyone savvy about colleges has heard of it. My lord! We heard of it in the Midwest in the 80s.

The College of William & Mary calls itself "the second-oldest institution of higher learning in the country", acknowledging Harvard's claim but adding that: "Harvard may have opened first, but William & Mary was already planned. Original 1619 plans for W&M called for a campus at Henrico." This refers to the College of Henricopolis or University of Henrico established by the Virginia Company near Richmond, Virginia. With respect to the title of first university in America, it makes the claim on its website that "in 1781, by uniting the faculties of law, medicine, and the arts, William & Mary became America's first true university."[ It also is the "First institution of higher education to have a law school, which made us the first college in the country to become a university (1779)".

Harvard, William and Mary, and Yale were organized on the plans of the English colleges which constitute the universities of Oxford and Cambridge.

Sorry, never heard of it before moving down here. I also knew just one person who went to UVA for undergraduate. I did not it was a good school until we moved to dc.

It is geographic. You only hear of a handful of top schools in an area. This was also before the internet so I may have glanced the us news ranking list in a magazine but I didn’t stare or study in.

Why are you double and tripling down on not knowing a pretty darn famous school? It's been listed as a top 50ish school in USNews since the 1990s.

Literally, you learn about it in history class considering Thomas Jefferson and James Monroe graduated from W&M.

Weird flex.

DP. Maybe let it go that W&M is not all that you continue to hype it up as?

You are clearly the same poster that has posted here and like 5 additional threads.

There is no hype involved in knowing that schools exist, but yet again, you take pride that you are a dipshit. Good for you.

I don't care one way or the other on William & Mary...much like I don't care much about San Jose State or CA State Stanislaus or Humboldt or CA State Pomona, or the other CA colleges that I know exist.

I’m not that immediate pp but I said previously that I was unfamiliar with W&M. I have never posted anything about WM before. It really isn’t worth posting about.

I have written previously (last year?) about not knowing UVA was a good school before moving down here and was definitely flamed for that.

I live in VA now and know UVA is an excellent school. We can afford private tuition so my kids have no incentive to go to a state school.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:WM was well known at my rural high school in the 80s in DE. I knew about it just from reading history books. Maybe watch more Jeopardy? "William & Mary has been a clue or answer more than 70 times during regular play rounds — including six times as a Daily Double clue."

+1

and it's always been in a clash with Harvard about getting the 'first university in the US' title. It was the first college to become a university.

Anyone savvy about colleges has heard of it. My lord! We heard of it in the Midwest in the 80s.

The College of William & Mary calls itself "the second-oldest institution of higher learning in the country", acknowledging Harvard's claim but adding that: "Harvard may have opened first, but William & Mary was already planned. Original 1619 plans for W&M called for a campus at Henrico." This refers to the College of Henricopolis or University of Henrico established by the Virginia Company near Richmond, Virginia. With respect to the title of first university in America, it makes the claim on its website that "in 1781, by uniting the faculties of law, medicine, and the arts, William & Mary became America's first true university."[ It also is the "First institution of higher education to have a law school, which made us the first college in the country to become a university (1779)".

Harvard, William and Mary, and Yale were organized on the plans of the English colleges which constitute the universities of Oxford and Cambridge.

Sorry, never heard of it before moving down here. I also knew just one person who went to UVA for undergraduate. I did not it was a good school until we moved to dc.

It is geographic. You only hear of a handful of top schools in an area. This was also before the internet so I may have glanced the us news ranking list in a magazine but I didn’t stare or study in.

Why are you double and tripling down on not knowing a pretty darn famous school? It's been listed as a top 50ish school in USNews since the 1990s.

Literally, you learn about it in history class considering Thomas Jefferson and James Monroe graduated from W&M.

Weird flex.

DP. Maybe let it go that W&M is not all that you continue to hype it up as?

You are clearly the same poster that has posted here and like 5 additional threads.

There is no hype involved in knowing that schools exist, but yet again, you take pride that you are a dipshit. Good for you.

I don't care one way or the other on William & Mary...much like I don't care much about San Jose State or CA State Stanislaus or Humboldt or CA State Pomona, or the other CA colleges that I know exist.

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Anonymous wrote:WM was well known at my rural high school in the 80s in DE. I knew about it just from reading history books. Maybe watch more Jeopardy? "William & Mary has been a clue or answer more than 70 times during regular play rounds — including six times as a Daily Double clue."

+1

and it's always been in a clash with Harvard about getting the 'first university in the US' title. It was the first college to become a university.

Anyone savvy about colleges has heard of it. My lord! We heard of it in the Midwest in the 80s.

The College of William & Mary calls itself "the second-oldest institution of higher learning in the country", acknowledging Harvard's claim but adding that: "Harvard may have opened first, but William & Mary was already planned. Original 1619 plans for W&M called for a campus at Henrico." This refers to the College of Henricopolis or University of Henrico established by the Virginia Company near Richmond, Virginia. With respect to the title of first university in America, it makes the claim on its website that "in 1781, by uniting the faculties of law, medicine, and the arts, William & Mary became America's first true university."[ It also is the "First institution of higher education to have a law school, which made us the first college in the country to become a university (1779)".

Harvard, William and Mary, and Yale were organized on the plans of the English colleges which constitute the universities of Oxford and Cambridge.

Sorry, never heard of it before moving down here. I also knew just one person who went to UVA for undergraduate. I did not it was a good school until we moved to dc.

It is geographic. You only hear of a handful of top schools in an area. This was also before the internet so I may have glanced the us news ranking list in a magazine but I didn’t stare or study in.

+1 I'm from CA. Never heard of W&M till I moved here, and UVA was not on our radar, either. I knew that all states have a flagship univ, but UVA wasn't on a "known list".

+2
I’m also from CA and UVA was no different to us than say, UND or UNM.

I remember I knew a guy at MIT who went to UMD for undergrad. He was brilliant but he had some strange chip about going to UMD. He was always trying to tell others how good its honors college was and how he went there for some scholarship. It would have been better if he didn’t say anything. No one cared if he went to UMD or UVA or Arizona State.[/quote

THIS!