Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For ROI your major matters a lot more than your school name.

Even at Cornell, English, History or Performing Arts degrees have a crappy ROI - sorry, humanities fans.

I respectfully disagree when discussing the top 10 universities.

A Harvard or Yale degree will open doors for the rest of your life no matter the major. What you do once the door is open is up to you.

And yet my humanities UVA grad is reading for a DPhil at Oxford.

Anonymous wrote:For ROI your major matters a lot more than your school name.

Even at Cornell, English, History or Performing Arts degrees have a crappy ROI - sorry, humanities fans.

I respectfully disagree when discussing the top 10 universities.

A Harvard or Yale degree will open doors for the rest of your life no matter the major. What you do once the door is open is up to you.

Anonymous wrote:We know OP. Our DC who attended the mediocre public has a much more successful career. Soft skills should be taught in college.

I am not sure the term soft skills is accurate. Developing leadership skills and a task focused work ethic are not “soft” endeavors.

I am from a poor single mother home. Awful circumstances, although I didn’t process it that way at the time. I went to Duke on athletic scholarship. Socially it was terrible as I had nothing in common with the elite kids there. But it really didn’t matter. I was there for a social life. Had to earn my keep athletically and get the most out of a free education. Riding the bus between east and west campus - I often reflected how privileged I was to get a first class education. I worked in a union during summers and knew the other side of life. Don’t want to paint the university as uncaring. My mother, with health and addiction problems, was only able to visit me once. My religion professor - I did not like humanities but accurately thought religion would round me out having zero background in any form of religion - got wind of my mother’s visit and invited to attend my class. My mother, who was not a student of any kind and did not attend college, felt like a million bucks. The professor also invited my mother to dinner with his family. My guess is that some of the Big 10 and SEC schools which recruited me would have had the same kind of family environment, but credit to the Duke faculty for stepping up. They let me in a competitive honors program, too - which they should not have but worked like heck to justify their choice - typing up my 125 thesis on the road after a top finish in a national competition.

Fast forward a generation. Sent my kids to public school - could not have imagined spending money for a private high school. Learning how to navigate large institutions is a life skill my daughters learned. Both were national merit finalists, and while they enjoyed a life completely unknown to me when I was young, they were hard workers and adopted the kind disposition of my mother. They went to Princeton - an excellent school but not a good value - and paying for it with no loans or debt was not easy, but I had to pay my good fortune forward. I think they would have been every bit as successful if they took the Echols Scholar offers at UVA, but Princeton was a place I was admitted but could not go due to finances (no athletic scholarships), and at least one of my kids went there (I discouraged it) as an honor to me. I admit my wife was a great student educated at the best schools in Montreal, but she shares my public school preferences.

I did exceedingly well in professional school and career. Certainly not smart like my kids. But the ability to focus and compete made the difference. And I didn’t pick up these attributes from Duke. The best thing for me was having no helicopter parents and learning to be accountable to the person in the mirror from early on. Mistakes were my own.

For ROI your major matters a lot more than your school name.

Even at Cornell, English, History or Performing Arts degrees have a crappy ROI - sorry, humanities fans.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe it's too early to tell or maybe she just didn't capitalize on all the opportunities (I suspect very few do) but it most certainly has not changed her life. The thing I do notice is overall a higher percentage of deeply committed pre-med students than my son's peers at the state flagship. Other than that there's this laughable idea that an elite college is a golden ticket to a $150,000 job offer and a rich spouse and that's just not accurate. The plum six-figure job offers are scarce and go to the connected and elbowy overachievers with perfect grades. And generally the rich socialize with the rich. If you want your child in that orbit they need to be in that orbit by 9th grade at some ritzy prep or boarding school.

I have a niece at Cornell who is close with my daughter and she has had a similar experience. At Cornell the rich are in the rich kid sororities and fraternities.

A few years back we were caught up in the admissions frenzy but in retrospect it seems so nutty. I'm [now] far more impressed with a parent who tells me their kid is at a less selective school but just got into medical school than some Ivy League parent who tells me their ubiquitous kid is going into "consulting" for $60,000 a year or some second rate grad program.

Showy parents will brag about the prestigious college acceptance, they'll brag about move-in, they might even brag about a sophomore year study abroad trip. But then the bragging stops because there's nothing to brag about. Their kid was quickly humbled and will end up in the same 9 to 5 hybrid workplace gig any state schooler can get.

I have noticed this!

The most popular landing places for UPenn grads are nursing positions and vague analyst and consulting roles. These outcomes look like any state flagship.
https://careerservices.upenn.edu/post-graduate-outcomes/undergraduate-first-destinations/

We know OP. Our DC who attended the mediocre public has a much more successful career. Soft skills should be taught in college.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe it's too early to tell or maybe she just didn't capitalize on all the opportunities (I suspect very few do) but it most certainly has not changed her life. The thing I do notice is overall a higher percentage of deeply committed pre-med students than my son's peers at the state flagship. Other than that there's this laughable idea that an elite college is a golden ticket to a $150,000 job offer and a rich spouse and that's just not accurate. The plum six-figure job offers are scarce and go to the connected and elbowy overachievers with perfect grades. And generally the rich socialize with the rich. If you want your child in that orbit they need to be in that orbit by 9th grade at some ritzy prep or boarding school.

I have a niece at Cornell who is close with my daughter and she has had a similar experience. At Cornell the rich are in the rich kid sororities and fraternities.

A few years back we were caught up in the admissions frenzy but in retrospect it seems so nutty. I'm [now] far more impressed with a parent who tells me their kid is at a less selective school but just got into medical school than some Ivy League parent who tells me their ubiquitous kid is going into "consulting" for $60,000 a year or some second rate grad program.

Showy parents will brag about the prestigious college acceptance, they'll brag about move-in, they might even brag about a sophomore year study abroad trip. But then the bragging stops because there's nothing to brag about. Their kid was quickly humbled and will end up in the same 9 to 5 hybrid workplace gig any state schooler can get.

I have noticed this!

Anonymous wrote:Maybe it's too early to tell or maybe she just didn't capitalize on all the opportunities (I suspect very few do) but it most certainly has not changed her life. The thing I do notice is overall a higher percentage of deeply committed pre-med students than my son's peers at the state flagship. Other than that there's this laughable idea that an elite college is a golden ticket to a $150,000 job offer and a rich spouse and that's just not accurate. The plum six-figure job offers are scarce and go to the connected and elbowy overachievers with perfect grades. And generally the rich socialize with the rich. If you want your child in that orbit they need to be in that orbit by 9th grade at some ritzy prep or boarding school.

I have a niece at Cornell who is close with my daughter and she has had a similar experience. At Cornell the rich are in the rich kid sororities and fraternities.

A few years back we were caught up in the admissions frenzy but in retrospect it seems so nutty. I'm [now] far more impressed with a parent who tells me their kid is at a less selective school but just got into medical school than some Ivy League parent who tells me their ubiquitous kid is going into "consulting" for $60,000 a year or some second rate grad program.

Showy parents will brag about the prestigious college acceptance, they'll brag about move-in, they might even brag about a sophomore year study abroad trip. But then the bragging stops because there's nothing to brag about. Their kid was quickly humbled and will end up in the same 9 to 5 hybrid workplace gig any state schooler can get.

Anonymous wrote:Not sure what some posters are talking about, UPenn and all that. Most ivy parents see other ivies as peers.

This--have friends with kids at other ivies and it is a wonderful relationship even if say my kid at Columbia and there's at Cornell or Princeton (higher tier or lower tier).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What does elite mean here?

Harvard, MIT, Stanford, and perhaps Princeton & Yale are elite.

Cornell, Vanderbilt, Dartmouth, Northwestern, Duke, etc. etc. are not.

And yes, even Harvard/MIT/Stanford/Princeton/Yale won't give your kid a $150k job, wealthy spouse (a 1950's reason to go to a elite school, but okay), and a wealthy, highly-connected friend group off the bat. And thank god for that.

The purpose of top schools is to have top professors and top students to learn from and compete with, and improve oneself in the process. Not a $150k job, wealthy spouse and highly-connected wealthy network.

What these schools do provide beyond the education though is a pedigree that lasts through 40+ years of one's careers, and certainly can come in handy down the line - if you want to use it.

As for the rest - Cornell, Vanderbilt, Dartmouth, Northwestern, Duke, etc., most people do not view these schools to be more "elite" than top state flagships like Berkeley, Michigan, etc. Most will consider these students to either be wealthy dumb kids (too dumb for HYPSM) or top middle-class kids, the same that attend top flagships.

You must not be in elite social circles. Dartmouth and Cornell are Ivy flat out and are therefore by definition elite.

This poster is clearly not from the South!

Anonymous wrote:What does elite mean here?

Harvard, MIT, Stanford, and perhaps Princeton & Yale are elite.

Cornell, Vanderbilt, Dartmouth, Northwestern, Duke, etc. etc. are not.

And yes, even Harvard/MIT/Stanford/Princeton/Yale won't give your kid a $150k job, wealthy spouse (a 1950's reason to go to a elite school, but okay), and a wealthy, highly-connected friend group off the bat. And thank god for that.

The purpose of top schools is to have top professors and top students to learn from and compete with, and improve oneself in the process. Not a $150k job, wealthy spouse and highly-connected wealthy network.

What these schools do provide beyond the education though is a pedigree that lasts through 40+ years of one's careers, and certainly can come in handy down the line - if you want to use it.

As for the rest - Cornell, Vanderbilt, Dartmouth, Northwestern, Duke, etc., most people do not view these schools to be more "elite" than top state flagships like Berkeley, Michigan, etc. Most will consider these students to either be wealthy dumb kids (too dumb for HYPSM) or top middle-class kids, the same that attend top flagships.

You must not be in elite social circles. Dartmouth and Cornell are Ivy flat out and are therefore by definition elite.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe it's too early to tell or maybe she just didn't capitalize on all the opportunities (I suspect very few do) but it most certainly has not changed her life. The thing I do notice is overall a higher percentage of deeply committed pre-med students than my son's peers at the state flagship. Other than that there's this laughable idea that an elite college is a golden ticket to a $150,000 job offer and a rich spouse and that's just not accurate. The plum six-figure job offers are scarce and go to the connected and elbowy overachievers with perfect grades. And generally the rich socialize with the rich. If you want your child in that orbit they need to be in that orbit by 9th grade at some ritzy prep or boarding school.

I have a niece at Cornell who is close with my daughter and she has had a similar experience. At Cornell the rich are in the rich kid sororities and fraternities.

A few years back we were caught up in the admissions frenzy but in retrospect it seems so nutty. I'm [now] far more impressed with a parent who tells me their kid is at a less selective school but just got into medical school than some Ivy League parent who tells me their ubiquitous kid is going into "consulting" for $60,000 a year or some second rate grad program.

Did your kid go to public school? And your niece? You will never be elite coming from a public unless you are uber rich or uber famous. You needed to have sent your kid to a big 3ish school in this area (Maret, Potomac, etc. would also be okay but prefer Sidwell or NCS/Albans). GDS not materialistic enough. Then Ivy (even Cornell is fine) for "finishing school". Top it off with T14 Law School. This is the way.
#FEEDTHETROLL

The uber rich / uber famous are not going to public school or law school.

Anonymous wrote:Maybe it's too early to tell or maybe she just didn't capitalize on all the opportunities (I suspect very few do) but it most certainly has not changed her life. The thing I do notice is overall a higher percentage of deeply committed pre-med students than my son's peers at the state flagship. Other than that there's this laughable idea that an elite college is a golden ticket to a $150,000 job offer and a rich spouse and that's just not accurate. The plum six-figure job offers are scarce and go to the connected and elbowy overachievers with perfect grades. And generally the rich socialize with the rich. If you want your child in that orbit they need to be in that orbit by 9th grade at some ritzy prep or boarding school.

I have a niece at Cornell who is close with my daughter and she has had a similar experience. At Cornell the rich are in the rich kid sororities and fraternities.

A few years back we were caught up in the admissions frenzy but in retrospect it seems so nutty. I'm [now] far more impressed with a parent who tells me their kid is at a less selective school but just got into medical school than some Ivy League parent who tells me their ubiquitous kid is going into "consulting" for $60,000 a year or some second rate grad program.

Did your kid go to public school? And your niece? You will never be elite coming from a public unless you are uber rich or uber famous. You needed to have sent your kid to a big 3ish school in this area (Maret, Potomac, etc. would also be okay but prefer Sidwell or NCS/Albans). GDS not materialistic enough. Then Ivy (even Cornell is fine) for "finishing school". Top it off with T14 Law School. This is the way.
#FEEDTHETROLL

Anonymous wrote:Maybe it's too early to tell or maybe she just didn't capitalize on all the opportunities (I suspect very few do) but it most certainly has not changed her life. The thing I do notice is overall a higher percentage of deeply committed pre-med students than my son's peers at the state flagship. Other than that there's this laughable idea that an elite college is a golden ticket to a $150,000 job offer and a rich spouse and that's just not accurate. The plum six-figure job offers are scarce and go to the connected and elbowy overachievers with perfect grades. And generally the rich socialize with the rich. If you want your child in that orbit they need to be in that orbit by 9th grade at some ritzy prep or boarding school.

I have a niece at Cornell who is close with my daughter and she has had a similar experience. At Cornell the rich are in the rich kid sororities and fraternities.

A few years back we were caught up in the admissions frenzy but in retrospect it seems so nutty. I'm [now] far more impressed with a parent who tells me their kid is at a less selective school but just got into medical school than some Ivy League parent who tells me their ubiquitous kid is going into "consulting" for $60,000 a year or some second rate grad program.

Were your daughter and Cornell niece "hooked" applicants by chance?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I haven't read this whole thread, but I got my undergrad at a mid-level state school and my masters from an Ivy, so I thought I'd contribute my own personal experience.

My perspective on it is this: no college of any level will guarantee you a job afterward. All you have when you graduate is academic knowledge and social connections. It's incumbent on the individual to go out and make things happen with the resources they have. Also, academic knowledge often is only vaguely useful in your chosen job field. When hiring new grads at my business, we anticipate at least a year of training them up to be competent.

The smartest people I encountered at the Ivy I went to were no smarter than the smartest people I encountered at my mid-level state school. Practically speaking, there seems to be an upper limit to how intelligent people can be, and you can find people of that level at most universities. However, I did notice that the AVERAGE intelligence and drive at the Ivy was higher than the average at the state school. I.e. there were a greater number of slackers and dummies at the state school (though there were also slackers and dummies at the Ivy!), so you were more likely to find people at state school who didn't really give a flip and were just there to coast and party. (Again, that personality also existed at the Ivy I went to, just in much smaller quantities).

Thus far (about ten years out from my grad degree) the main difference I've noticed is the social network. Probably 15% - 20% people I went to the Ivy with are now in C-level leadership positions at companies. Having remained friendly and in good contact with these people, they are now business colleagues. Conversely, I've also remained friendly and in good contact with the people I went to state school with, and less than 1% of those people are in any positions of leadership, let alone C-level leadership. I only have continuing business interests with one person from the state school.

Obviously this is just a persona anecdotal story, though, so take it with a grain of salt.

It could be that the Ivy attracts people who are more economically ambitious in the first place, which leads to the phenomena you described.

PP here. Agreed. Or even just more simply the difference in mentality between undergrad students and people who elect to go to grad school.