Anonymous wrote:

I consider Italians to be Italians. Not Catholics.

And not all Jews are followers of the Jewish faith. The word "Jew" is a translation of Yahoodi, Judean. The distinction of ethnicity and religion is foreign to the bible, and to historic Jewish culture.

Italians think themselves special only because of their food probably. As far as I know they don't think they're better than any other religion or culture or particularly special.

And again, most secular Jews do not consider Jews special or chosen. Only religious Jews do. Because it is in the bible.

Most Italians in this country do not send their children to specific Italian schools and only talk amongst themselves.

Most Jews don't sent their children to Jewish schools, and almost no secular Jews do so. Most Jews talk to all kinds of people.

Sure, they may have some other Italian friends and talk about some cultural similarities, but they don't segregate from the rest of the world the way the Jews do.

Despite a history of being confined to ghettos (that is where the word comes from BTW) most Jews, certainly most secular Jews, live pretty integrated lives.

The only schools are catholic schools that catholics send their children to.

People who live in Italy can become citizens even if they weren't Italian to begin with. This is not the case in Israel.

That is incorrect. Non-Jewish immigrants to Israel can become citizens. They just do not get the automatic right to citizenship that Jews get under the Law of Return.

In the bible I read Jews in the old testament are the people who believed in Yahweh.

Please quote where Jews are defined that why in the bible. Chapter and verse.

Especially in genesis and exodus. Where in the jewish books does it talk about non-jews still being jewish and "chosen"?

There is of course nothing about non-Jews being Jewish. There is plenty about Jews sinning by following other gods. They are never called non-Jews on that account. They are still part of the people.

The chosen status refers to the people, not to individuals. It is very clear from the books like Ezekial, Isaiah, etc, that G-d welcomes the repentence of HIS people, who have sinned. They never ceased to be HIS people.

I will try to address some of your other questions, but this was your response to whether you felt being chosen. Why do you feel chosen if you don't believe in G_d? "To be honest, I do. I didn't have that clarity growing up when I was in Saturday or Sunday school and in Hebrew school. As I've matured, I view religion a bit differently. I don't walk around entitled."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do you say "Jewish" instead of "Jews"?

I feel that calling oneself "Jewish" does not show full commitment to that identity. It's like you are on the fence.

what quote are you referring to? Jewish is an adjective. English grammar has different words for adjectives and nouns.

For example people say - "I am Christian." or "I am Muslim." They do not say I am "Muslimish" or I am "Christianish". So why say I am "Jewish"? Why not just say "I am a Jew" ?

Anonymous wrote:Why do you say "Jewish" instead of "Jews"?

I feel that calling oneself "Jewish" does not show full commitment to that identity. It's like you are on the fence.

what quote are you referring to? Jewish is an adjective. English grammar has different words for adjectives and nouns.

I consider Italians to be Italians. Not Catholics.

And not all Jews are followers of the Jewish faith. The word "Jew" is a translation of Yahoodi, Judean. The distinction of ethnicity and religion is foreign to the bible, and to historic Jewish culture.

Italians think themselves special only because of their food probably. As far as I know they don't think they're better than any other religion or culture or particularly special.

And again, most secular Jews do not consider Jews special or chosen. Only religious Jews do. Because it is in the bible.

Most Italians in this country do not send their children to specific Italian schools and only talk amongst themselves.

Most Jews don't sent their children to Jewish schools, and almost no secular Jews do so. Most Jews talk to all kinds of people.

Sure, they may have some other Italian friends and talk about some cultural similarities, but they don't segregate from the rest of the world the way the Jews do.

Despite a history of being confined to ghettos (that is where the word comes from BTW) most Jews, certainly most secular Jews, live pretty integrated lives.

The only schools are catholic schools that catholics send their children to.

People who live in Italy can become citizens even if they weren't Italian to begin with. This is not the case in Israel.

That is incorrect. Non-Jewish immigrants to Israel can become citizens. They just do not get the automatic right to citizenship that Jews get under the Law of Return.

In the bible I read Jews in the old testament are the people who believed in Yahweh.

Please quote where Jews are defined that why in the bible. Chapter and verse.

Especially in genesis and exodus. Where in the jewish books does it talk about non-jews still being jewish and "chosen"?

There is of course nothing about non-Jews being Jewish. There is plenty about Jews sinning by following other gods. They are never called non-Jews on that account. They are still part of the people.

The chosen status refers to the people, not to individuals. It is very clear from the books like Ezekial, Isaiah, etc, that G-d welcomes the repentence of HIS people, who have sinned. They never ceased to be HIS people.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not at my place of worship.

Curious if you are at a Reform shul? I must admit that seeing a person of color at my Conservative shul would raise a couple eyebrows -- in surprise, not dismay. And everyone would quickly get over it and welcome him or her. But when you see old white guy after old white guy walk in the door, a black or Asian person would stand out.

I have heard that in some UltraOrthodox shuls black members are very accepted. That may be because they judge people by their level of adherence to the details of halacha, which can overcome many other social issues.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you believe in God? If so, why?

I'm undecided. I did. Many things have happened in my life that have left me with a lot of questions.

Just curious why you still think you're "Special" even though you don't believe in the God that made you a unique set of people to begin with. Jewish used to mean people who believed in one god and held similar religious practices. Not people from a certain area. Do you even consider yourself Jewish if you don't believe in god? I don't consider anyone to be Jewish who doesn't believe in their god. I just consider them racist. Doesn't that make you agnositic or an atheist insead?

I find this comment to be almost Antisemetic...but I will address the issue. The jewish are a defined ethnicity; like the Greeks, Norwegians, or any other group, there are characteristics of jewish people that are genetic -- for example, Ashkenazi jews are much more likely to carry BRCA mutations. We have a culture that relates to our religion, but is not defined by the religion. For example, if you look at the Old Testament (aka the Jewish part of the bible), you will see many rules that need to be followed. Jewish people study the text, and try to understand the text -- that is called the Talmud, which while not the bible, is the collective interpretations over the years. People would get together and discuss, argue and debate what things mean. We are taught to question the meaning, to try to understand things. The why, not just the what. That is probably why there are many jews in the legal profession -- we are taught and exposed to debates. We are taught to question -- which may explain why there are so many scientists.

Jewish people have had to deal with adversity throughout history....from the time of Moses, when we were slaves, to the time of Queen Esther, to the Maccabees...then the Romans who kicked us out of our lands...the Spanish inquisition. More recently, our mass expulsion from Russia around the revolution (aka Fiddler on the Roof), and of course, the attempted mass extinction during the Holocaust. Thought out this time, we have kept our identity. Not because we are better than others, but because it is who we are.

If you look at the world today, there are only two places where it is safe to be jewish: Israel and the USA. And, IMHO, Israel, while justified in protecting herself, needs to be more understanding...the jewish people should embrace the Palestinians...we know what is like to be persecuted...we were victim of the Diaspora. We were strangers in the land of Egypt...The recent attempted genocide against the jewish people does not justify mistreatment of other peoples.

But, we are one people. I can walk into a store in Tel Aviv, in Jerusalem, in NYC, and be with my people. I can walk into any synagogue, and be welcomed. For who I am. Oh, and anyone reading this would be welcome into my synagogue....Last night, we had almost 500 people for Friday night services, because 6 crazy people protested outside. We sang words of peace and love.

Isn't anti-Semitic to mistreat, oppress and sometimes even kill so many innocent Palestinian lives?

If you look at the bolded paragraph (with a typo corrected), I think I addressed it.

You did share your own opinion about it, which is great. What are Jewish Americans, a significant source of political and funding support for Israel, doing to change it? Aren't they de-facto supporting anti-Semitic policies and actions?

We do not all share the same political opinions on the Palestinians and Israel. I suggest you take your political concerns to the politics forum. Whatever your feelings about the situation in the Middle East, resenting Jews as a group because of it is bigoted, just as resenting Arabs or Muslims as a group is.

Why do you say "Jewish" instead of "Jews"?

I feel that calling oneself "Jewish" does not show full commitment to that identity. It's like you are on the fence.

I looked up Who is a Jew here. You are correct that in the past Jews have been considered a group of people from a particular group of descendants however it says these descendants come peoplele who took up Jeudaism as a religion. The chosen part as far as I can tell has always been about the religion and not about the nationality.
http://www.jewfaq.org/whoisjew.htm#Who

A discussion of what being or becoming a jew is here below. A convert and a Jew has to follow 613 commandments. If Jews are not following any of these commandments, how would they be considered chosen? According to his website, they lose their special status when they abandon the Torah.

Because of our acceptance of Torah, Jews have a special status in the eyes of G-d, but we lose that special status when we abandon Torah. Furthermore, the blessings that we received from G-d by accepting the Torah come with a high price: Jews have a greater responsibility than non-Jews. While non-Jews are only obligated to obey the seven commandments given to Noah, Jews are responsible for fulfilling the 613 mitzvot in the Torah, thus G-d will punish Jews for doing things that would not be a sin for non-Jews.

As the discussion above explained, Jews have a lot of responsibilities that non-Jews do not have. To be considered a good and righteous person in the eyes of G-d, a non-Jew need only follow the seven Noahic commandments, whereas a Jew has to follow all 613 commandments given in the Torah. If the potential convert is not going to follow those extra rules, it's better for him or her to stay a gentile, and since we as Jews are all responsible for each other, it's better for us too if that person stayed a gentile. The rabbinically mandated attempt to dissuade a convert is intended to make sure that the prospective convert is serious and willing to take on all this extra responsibility.

Once a person has decided to convert, the proselyte must begin to learn Jewish religion, law and customs and begin to observe them. This teaching process generally takes at least one year, because the prospective convert must experience each of the Jewish holidays; however, the actual amount of study required will vary from person to person (a convert who was raised as a Jew might not need any further education, for example, while another person might need several years).

After the teaching is complete, the proselyte is brought before a Beit Din (rabbinical court) which examines the proselyte and determines whether he or she is ready to become a Jew. If the proselyte passes this oral examination, the rituals of conversion are performed. If the convert is male, he is circumcised (or, if he was already circumcised, a pinprick of blood is drawn for a symbolic circumcision). Both male and female converts are immersed in the mikvah (a ritual bath used for spiritual purification). The convert is given a Jewish name and is then introduced into the Jewish community.

In theory, once the conversion procedure is complete, the convert is as much a Jew as anyone who is born to the religion. In practice, the convert is sometimes treated with caution, because we have had some of bad experiences with converts who later return to their former faith in whole or in part. However, it is important to remember that Abraham himself was a convert, as were all of the matriarchs of Judaism, as was Ruth, an ancestor of King David.

This site clearly talks about conversion being a religious conversion. Not a conversion to a culture or race.
http://www.convert.org/Should_I_Convert.html

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you believe in God? If so, why?

I'm undecided. I did. Many things have happened in my life that have left me with a lot of questions.

Just curious why you still think you're "Special" even though you don't believe in the God that made you a unique set of people to begin with. Jewish used to mean people who believed in one god and held similar religious practices. Not people from a certain area. Do you even consider yourself Jewish if you don't believe in god? I don't consider anyone to be Jewish who doesn't believe in their god. I just consider them racist. Doesn't that make you agnositic or an atheist insead?

There is much more Jewish culture than religion - there are languages (Hebrew, Yiddish, Ladino) foodways, art and literature, etc. Would you call someone who considers themselves Italian racist if they are not Catholic? While in the US in recent generations secular Jewish identify has not fared all that well, it was not always that way.

by the way what era are you referring to when you say that Jewish used to mean people who beleived? Jewish law and tradition have always recognized that there are non believing, non practicing Jews. Those Jews are sinners, but they are still Jews. That is the view throughout the bible, and was continued for 3000 years. The notion that being Jewish is a "religion" really developed in the 19th century, but was never universally held (and was strongly rejected by thinkers like Achad Ha-Am) Indeed, arguably "religion" is a western, christian concept, representing a division of human life that is foreign to Jewish tradition (as it is foreign, I believe, to muslim and hindu traditions)

I consider Italians to be Italians. Not Catholics. Italians think themselves special only because of their food probably. As far as I know they don't think they're better than any other religion or culture or particularly special. Most Italians in this country do not send their children to specific Italian schools and only talk amongst themselves. Sure, they may have some other Italian friends and talk about some cultural similarities, but they don't segregate from the rest of the world the way the Jews do. The only schools are catholic schools that catholics send their children to. People who live in Italy can become citizens even if they weren't Italian to begin with. This is not the case in Israel.

In the bible I read Jews in the old testament are the people who believed in Yahweh. Especially in genesis and exodus. Where in the jewish books does it talk about non-jews still being jewish and "chosen"?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not at my place of worship.

Curious if you are at a Reform shul? I must admit that seeing a person of color at my Conservative shul would raise a couple eyebrows -- in surprise, not dismay. And everyone would quickly get over it and welcome him or her. But when you see old white guy after old white guy walk in the door, a black or Asian person would stand out.

I am in a Reform Shul. We probably are about 20% atypical families, mostly mixed marriages (about 1/2 the congregation is mixed).

+1

At our current Reform shul (not in the DC area), one of the board members is Asian, and no raised eyebrows. Lots of mixed families and several "minority" families.

In the Reform shul where I grew up, there were many fewer non-white people, but that was 30 years ago, and I have a feeling that things have changed for the more-diverse. One of the groundbreakers was an AA convert, who grew up in my mom's Orthodox neighborhood in the 1950s as the "shobbos goy" (non-Jewish person who turns lights on and off, etc, during the Sabbath for some very observant Jews). Judaism intrigued him, and he converted to Reform Judaism when he grew up, joining the Reform congregation where my dad grew up. (My mom also left Orthodoxy and I was raised VERY liberal Reform. We don't agree with a lot of Orthodox practices for our family.) This man is one of the most knowledgeable Jews I know, and while he might have raised some eyebrows at first--I don't know because I wasn't born yet--he is a leader in the congregation. At one point, he was the brotherhood president. Since then, membership has become more diverse, though I would say it's probably still 70% older Ashkenazim.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not at my place of worship.

Curious if you are at a Reform shul? I must admit that seeing a person of color at my Conservative shul would raise a couple eyebrows -- in surprise, not dismay. And everyone would quickly get over it and welcome him or her. But when you see old white guy after old white guy walk in the door, a black or Asian person would stand out.

I am in a Reform Shul. We probably are about 20% atypical families, mostly mixed marriages (about 1/2 the congregation is mixed).

So I asked this in the politics thread but this might be a better place.

Are mizrahim and Sephardim americans greatly different politically & culturally compared to Ashkenazi jew americans?

Do Ashkenazim look down upon Mizrahim and Sephardim in the US?

What are some of the stereotypes each group has about each other?

Anonymous wrote:Not at my place of worship.

Curious if you are at a Reform shul? I must admit that seeing a person of color at my Conservative shul would raise a couple eyebrows -- in surprise, not dismay. And everyone would quickly get over it and welcome him or her. But when you see old white guy after old white guy walk in the door, a black or Asian person would stand out.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You spoke about the genetic component. How accepted are converts who are "people of color"?

We welcome converts....it is hard to convert to Judaism, as we do not seek converts; we are not evangelical. But, there are people of all races that have converted for their own reasons....

But are they accepted as full Jews?

Religiously, yes. Socially, I hope so. But like anything else, it can differ, and some people are more close-minded than others.

Not at my place of worship.