Anonymous
11/25/2022 13:10
Subject: Should so called “thanksgiving” be a national day of mourning?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Do you know other cultures have Thanksgiving to celebrate the harvest? They didn’t all conquer North America.
So maybe we shouldn’t have based this holiday on the myth about “pilgrims and Indians”.
Schools are dropping any mention of Indians at all. It's not just turkeys and Pilgrims. Sounds like that ought to make some people happy, everyone will just forget about them.
Yup. They want to pretend like it never happened. Or the people aren’t still suffering today.
Revisionist history to the max.
Not so much revisionist as irrelevant. People are moving forward, why should they dwell on the past when it has nothing to do with them? Obviously the people who were hurt feel differently, but they aren't making much of an impact convincing anyone else to put their needs first. Everyone has their own problems these days.
Why do we bother to learn any history at all? It all happened in the past. Why dwell on any of it?
Maybe if we don’t sugar coat history just to make white people feel comfortable then we can learn from our mistakes and do better in the future.
Ha, as if white people are only bad. So do the Plymouth protestors also cover the section in history where native Americans own African slaves? Yes, it really existed:
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/how-native-american-slaveholders-complicate-trail-tears-narrative-180968339/
Let's also not even get into the entire violent and oppressive histories all across Asia, the Arab slave trade, etc. It's almost as if everyone's history is filled with oppression.
Go crawl under a rock and cry about it, because it will never end.
Strawman. We are talking about *our* history and treatment of indigenous people.
Yes, enslaving people is bad. Also, mass murdering and oppressing indigenous people is wrong.
Why is it so difficult for some people to acknowledge that?
Indigenous history is our history. They owned slaves. Why are we whitewashing native American history? They were slave owners.
Right. The Asian and Arab slave trade is not our history.
As I already said, yes, enslaving people is bad. No one has claimed otherwise.
Also, mass murdering and oppressing indigenous people is wrong. Wouldn’t you agree?
Sure oppressing people is wrong. Germany is wrong for killing millions of Jews. Japan is wrong for killing millions during WW2 too. I don't think Germany and Japan need to be forced to 'mourn' or have a day of 'repenting' for what they did. History is history.
Germany and Japan each paid massive reparations and we do have memorial days. ??
These are people living within our country. Our responsibility continues. Acknowledging their loss is the least we should do.
We already have Indigenous Peoples' Day. And yet, that's not good enough even thought that's what you're asking for. So, what do you really want to happen?
I’m not personally asking for anything.
On Thanksgiving, I do think we, the people in the US, should acknowledge the reality/perspective of the other people who were at this feast of our lore. If we are reflecting on all that we have, we can acknowledge there was also a massive human cost behind it.
Outside this holiday, we, the people of the US, should fix the wrongs that still persist today.
Exactly how would you like people to acknowledge the human cost? Should Grandma say "I'm sorry for the Trail of Tears, but thankful for my health" every year? What does that accomplish exactly? Say whatever you like at your table but the performative aspect of what you are suggesting is ridiculous. And until you give up your home and property to fix the wrongs you're a hypocrite. We also means you.
We could acknowledge it in public schools. Include multiple perspectives of history.
In addition to pardoning turkeys, the POTUS could host a function for tribal leaders. Broadcast between football games.
If they are part of “the story”, include their voice.
Cool, you get on that PSA. Your average person isn't going to tune into a function for tribal leaders. And they will be using the restroom between football games. Are you always this ineffective at change? Lot of lip service with no real impact. Embarrassing. Are you an actual adult?
Yes, many Americans are indifferent and willfully choose ignorance.
Please share with us what you have done to right this wrong? Flowery statements acknowledging the history do nothing, what actual things have you done to make a tiny bit of difference? Put your money where your mouth is.
Anonymous
11/25/2022 13:07
Subject: Should so called “thanksgiving” be a national day of mourning?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Assimilation is not a bad thing. Wave after wave of immigrants have been assimilated and now are just Americans.
And for better or worse, American Indians have chosen not to assimilate, or to both assimilate and not assimilate. Not sure that some of these posters know this or are willing to acknowledge this.
They were here first. Europeans chose not to assimilate.
I'm genuinely struck by how good a point this is. No snark.
Ok.
Should the Latinos coming to MoCo assimilate? English only?
Or should mcps cancel Halloween parties because the holiday rubs the newcomers the wrong way due to their religious beliefs?
That’s just one example. But I’m curious what you think. Should everyone assimilate, or should we be a melting pot and evolve?
I wasn't really taking a stance on assimilation itself. But I was thinking that as a general rule when people enter an established culture they do not destroy it. They may completely assimilate. They may create communities of people from their prior culture and interact with the greater population on a limited basis or they may even work to get aspects of their culture into the main stream.
The European settlers took a very different approach.
You would be wrong. Human history up through present day is one story of warring cultures killing each other after another. Thousands of lost cultures. I mean what is Russia doing to Ukraine? But especially 400 years ago that was the worldwide norm.
It isn't "one story" up through present day as you describe.
There were 100 people on the Mayflower. They arrived in a land that was known to be inhabited. Accepting the narrative that they were fleeing persecution or poverty (much like later immigrants) they should have acknowledged that not "warred". Or do you think that persecuted immigrants in modern day America should "war."?
The people on the Mayflower maintained fairly friendly relationships with the remaining Wampanoag (many had already died from disease.) You do know that more people came in the years that followed, right? Relationships were actually pretty good for the first 50 years or so. Read a book.
Huh? 16 years later the colonists massacred the Pequot.
There was a war with tribes on both sides.
History is more complicated than you are making it.
Driven by the English colonists.
Relationships certainly weren’t “pretty good for the first 50 years or so”. Less than 20 years after that feast, the Pequot tribe was systematically hunted down to be killed or enslaved.
Anonymous
11/25/2022 12:46
Subject: Should so called “thanksgiving” be a national day of mourning?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Do you know other cultures have Thanksgiving to celebrate the harvest? They didn’t all conquer North America.
So maybe we shouldn’t have based this holiday on the myth about “pilgrims and Indians”.
Schools are dropping any mention of Indians at all. It's not just turkeys and Pilgrims. Sounds like that ought to make some people happy, everyone will just forget about them.
Yup. They want to pretend like it never happened. Or the people aren’t still suffering today.
Revisionist history to the max.
Not so much revisionist as irrelevant. People are moving forward, why should they dwell on the past when it has nothing to do with them? Obviously the people who were hurt feel differently, but they aren't making much of an impact convincing anyone else to put their needs first. Everyone has their own problems these days.
Why do we bother to learn any history at all? It all happened in the past. Why dwell on any of it?
Maybe if we don’t sugar coat history just to make white people feel comfortable then we can learn from our mistakes and do better in the future.
Ha, as if white people are only bad. So do the Plymouth protestors also cover the section in history where native Americans own African slaves? Yes, it really existed:
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/how-native-american-slaveholders-complicate-trail-tears-narrative-180968339/
Let's also not even get into the entire violent and oppressive histories all across Asia, the Arab slave trade, etc. It's almost as if everyone's history is filled with oppression.
Go crawl under a rock and cry about it, because it will never end.
Strawman. We are talking about *our* history and treatment of indigenous people.
Yes, enslaving people is bad. Also, mass murdering and oppressing indigenous people is wrong.
Why is it so difficult for some people to acknowledge that?
Indigenous history is our history. They owned slaves. Why are we whitewashing native American history? They were slave owners.
Right. The Asian and Arab slave trade is not our history.
As I already said, yes, enslaving people is bad. No one has claimed otherwise.
Also, mass murdering and oppressing indigenous people is wrong. Wouldn’t you agree?
Sure oppressing people is wrong. Germany is wrong for killing millions of Jews. Japan is wrong for killing millions during WW2 too. I don't think Germany and Japan need to be forced to 'mourn' or have a day of 'repenting' for what they did. History is history.
Germany and Japan each paid massive reparations and we do have memorial days. ??
These are people living within our country. Our responsibility continues. Acknowledging their loss is the least we should do.
We already have Indigenous Peoples' Day. And yet, that's not good enough even thought that's what you're asking for. So, what do you really want to happen?
I’m not personally asking for anything.
On Thanksgiving, I do think we, the people in the US, should acknowledge the reality/perspective of the other people who were at this feast of our lore. If we are reflecting on all that we have, we can acknowledge there was also a massive human cost behind it.
Outside this holiday, we, the people of the US, should fix the wrongs that still persist today.
Exactly how would you like people to acknowledge the human cost? Should Grandma say "I'm sorry for the Trail of Tears, but thankful for my health" every year? What does that accomplish exactly? Say whatever you like at your table but the performative aspect of what you are suggesting is ridiculous. And until you give up your home and property to fix the wrongs you're a hypocrite. We also means you.
We could acknowledge it in public schools. Include multiple perspectives of history.
In addition to pardoning turkeys, the POTUS could host a function for tribal leaders. Broadcast between football games.
If they are part of “the story”, include their voice.
Yesterday the Mattaponi and Pamunkey tribes paid tribute to Governor Youngkin, as they have every year for 300 years. That includes their voice in the story.
https://www.wric.com/news/local-news/richmond/governor-youngkin-hosts-mattaponi-pamunkey-tribes-for-annual-tax-tribute-ceremony/
I wonder if they discussed his proposed changes to the VA history curriculum that called their ancestors “immigrants”.
They are!
https://nativenewsonline.net/education/va-education-dept-backtracks-from-labeling-native-americans-as-america-s-first-immigrants
“ Alton Carroll, a history professor at Northern Virginia Community College who is of Mescalero Apache descent, told Native News Online that his initial read of the proposed standards stood out to him for being “so glaringly wrong, and so heavily partisan.”
“The idea that Native people were immigrants and therefore they have no more right to land than anybody else is a white supremacist talking point,” Caroll said. “And for that to be reproduced by a governor's office—it's appalling.”
Chief Frank Adams of the Upper Mattaponi Indian Tribe headquartered in King William County, Virginia, told Native News Online that the language used to describe Native people in what is now Virginia is harmful and inaccurate.
“I thought we were making progress and then you read something that’s so derogatory and so ugly and it’s like: how can educated people write these words on paper for the world to see? You can learn a lot of things, but it's really hard to unlearn them.”
Over the past year, a working group of diverse stakeholders has worked to craft new history and social science standards of learning, which Virginia updates every seven years. When the new standards were published late on a Friday evening, Nov. 11, members of the working group were stunned by last-minute changes to the proposed text.
Virginia Sen. Jennifer B. Boysko (D-Fairfax) said the new standards presented “drastic changes” from the ones she helped craft on behalf of Virginia’s Culturally Relevant and Inclusive Education Practices Advisory Committee that met from 2021 to 2022 to recommend new standards to the Department of Education.
“We had focused on making sure that we're telling the stories of all kinds of people who live in Virginia, from our indigenous population and our newer immigrants, people who have come within the 20th and 21st century,” Boysko told Native News Online. “[We were] focusing on being inclusive and looking at history without trying to pretend that it wasn't painful. And I believe that a lot of that has been whitewashed. “”
Anonymous
11/25/2022 11:56
Subject: Should so called “thanksgiving” be a national day of mourning?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Do you know other cultures have Thanksgiving to celebrate the harvest? They didn’t all conquer North America.
So maybe we shouldn’t have based this holiday on the myth about “pilgrims and Indians”.
Schools are dropping any mention of Indians at all. It's not just turkeys and Pilgrims. Sounds like that ought to make some people happy, everyone will just forget about them.
Yup. They want to pretend like it never happened. Or the people aren’t still suffering today.
Revisionist history to the max.
Not so much revisionist as irrelevant. People are moving forward, why should they dwell on the past when it has nothing to do with them? Obviously the people who were hurt feel differently, but they aren't making much of an impact convincing anyone else to put their needs first. Everyone has their own problems these days.
Why do we bother to learn any history at all? It all happened in the past. Why dwell on any of it?
Maybe if we don’t sugar coat history just to make white people feel comfortable then we can learn from our mistakes and do better in the future.
Ha, as if white people are only bad. So do the Plymouth protestors also cover the section in history where native Americans own African slaves? Yes, it really existed:
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/how-native-american-slaveholders-complicate-trail-tears-narrative-180968339/
Let's also not even get into the entire violent and oppressive histories all across Asia, the Arab slave trade, etc. It's almost as if everyone's history is filled with oppression.
Go crawl under a rock and cry about it, because it will never end.
Strawman. We are talking about *our* history and treatment of indigenous people.
Yes, enslaving people is bad. Also, mass murdering and oppressing indigenous people is wrong.
Why is it so difficult for some people to acknowledge that?
Indigenous history is our history. They owned slaves. Why are we whitewashing native American history? They were slave owners.
Right. The Asian and Arab slave trade is not our history.
As I already said, yes, enslaving people is bad. No one has claimed otherwise.
Also, mass murdering and oppressing indigenous people is wrong. Wouldn’t you agree?
Sure oppressing people is wrong. Germany is wrong for killing millions of Jews. Japan is wrong for killing millions during WW2 too. I don't think Germany and Japan need to be forced to 'mourn' or have a day of 'repenting' for what they did. History is history.
Germany and Japan each paid massive reparations and we do have memorial days. ??
These are people living within our country. Our responsibility continues. Acknowledging their loss is the least we should do.
We already have Indigenous Peoples' Day. And yet, that's not good enough even thought that's what you're asking for. So, what do you really want to happen?
I’m not personally asking for anything.
On Thanksgiving, I do think we, the people in the US, should acknowledge the reality/perspective of the other people who were at this feast of our lore. If we are reflecting on all that we have, we can acknowledge there was also a massive human cost behind it.
Outside this holiday, we, the people of the US, should fix the wrongs that still persist today.
Exactly how would you like people to acknowledge the human cost? Should Grandma say "I'm sorry for the Trail of Tears, but thankful for my health" every year? What does that accomplish exactly? Say whatever you like at your table but the performative aspect of what you are suggesting is ridiculous. And until you give up your home and property to fix the wrongs you're a hypocrite. We also means you.
We could acknowledge it in public schools. Include multiple perspectives of history.
In addition to pardoning turkeys, the POTUS could host a function for tribal leaders. Broadcast between football games.
If they are part of “the story”, include their voice.
Yesterday the Mattaponi and Pamunkey tribes paid tribute to Governor Youngkin, as they have every year for 300 years. That includes their voice in the story.
https://www.wric.com/news/local-news/richmond/governor-youngkin-hosts-mattaponi-pamunkey-tribes-for-annual-tax-tribute-ceremony/
I wonder if they discussed his proposed changes to the VA history curriculum that called their ancestors “immigrants”.
They are!
Are they going to start paying taxes instead of tribute?
Anonymous
11/25/2022 11:35
Subject: Should so called “thanksgiving” be a national day of mourning?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Assimilation is not a bad thing. Wave after wave of immigrants have been assimilated and now are just Americans.
And for better or worse, American Indians have chosen not to assimilate, or to both assimilate and not assimilate. Not sure that some of these posters know this or are willing to acknowledge this.
They were here first. Europeans chose not to assimilate.
I'm genuinely struck by how good a point this is. No snark.
Ok.
Should the Latinos coming to MoCo assimilate? English only?
Or should mcps cancel Halloween parties because the holiday rubs the newcomers the wrong way due to their religious beliefs?
That’s just one example. But I’m curious what you think. Should everyone assimilate, or should we be a melting pot and evolve?
I wasn't really taking a stance on assimilation itself. But I was thinking that as a general rule when people enter an established culture they do not destroy it. They may completely assimilate. They may create communities of people from their prior culture and interact with the greater population on a limited basis or they may even work to get aspects of their culture into the main stream.
The European settlers took a very different approach.
You would be wrong. Human history up through present day is one story of warring cultures killing each other after another. Thousands of lost cultures. I mean what is Russia doing to Ukraine? But especially 400 years ago that was the worldwide norm.
It isn't "one story" up through present day as you describe.
There were 100 people on the Mayflower. They arrived in a land that was known to be inhabited. Accepting the narrative that they were fleeing persecution or poverty (much like later immigrants) they should have acknowledged that not "warred". Or do you think that persecuted immigrants in modern day America should "war."?
The people on the Mayflower maintained fairly friendly relationships with the remaining Wampanoag (many had already died from disease.) You do know that more people came in the years that followed, right? Relationships were actually pretty good for the first 50 years or so. Read a book.
Huh? 16 years later the colonists massacred the Pequot.
There was a war with tribes on both sides.
History is more complicated than you are making it.
Anonymous
11/25/2022 11:32
Subject: Should so called “thanksgiving” be a national day of mourning?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Do you know other cultures have Thanksgiving to celebrate the harvest? They didn’t all conquer North America.
So maybe we shouldn’t have based this holiday on the myth about “pilgrims and Indians”.
Schools are dropping any mention of Indians at all. It's not just turkeys and Pilgrims. Sounds like that ought to make some people happy, everyone will just forget about them.
Yup. They want to pretend like it never happened. Or the people aren’t still suffering today.
Revisionist history to the max.
Not so much revisionist as irrelevant. People are moving forward, why should they dwell on the past when it has nothing to do with them? Obviously the people who were hurt feel differently, but they aren't making much of an impact convincing anyone else to put their needs first. Everyone has their own problems these days.
Why do we bother to learn any history at all? It all happened in the past. Why dwell on any of it?
Maybe if we don’t sugar coat history just to make white people feel comfortable then we can learn from our mistakes and do better in the future.
Ha, as if white people are only bad. So do the Plymouth protestors also cover the section in history where native Americans own African slaves? Yes, it really existed:
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/how-native-american-slaveholders-complicate-trail-tears-narrative-180968339/
Let's also not even get into the entire violent and oppressive histories all across Asia, the Arab slave trade, etc. It's almost as if everyone's history is filled with oppression.
Go crawl under a rock and cry about it, because it will never end.
Strawman. We are talking about *our* history and treatment of indigenous people.
Yes, enslaving people is bad. Also, mass murdering and oppressing indigenous people is wrong.
Why is it so difficult for some people to acknowledge that?
Indigenous history is our history. They owned slaves. Why are we whitewashing native American history? They were slave owners.
Right. The Asian and Arab slave trade is not our history.
As I already said, yes, enslaving people is bad. No one has claimed otherwise.
Also, mass murdering and oppressing indigenous people is wrong. Wouldn’t you agree?
Sure oppressing people is wrong. Germany is wrong for killing millions of Jews. Japan is wrong for killing millions during WW2 too. I don't think Germany and Japan need to be forced to 'mourn' or have a day of 'repenting' for what they did. History is history.
Germany and Japan each paid massive reparations and we do have memorial days. ??
These are people living within our country. Our responsibility continues. Acknowledging their loss is the least we should do.
We already have Indigenous Peoples' Day. And yet, that's not good enough even thought that's what you're asking for. So, what do you really want to happen?
I’m not personally asking for anything.
On Thanksgiving, I do think we, the people in the US, should acknowledge the reality/perspective of the other people who were at this feast of our lore. If we are reflecting on all that we have, we can acknowledge there was also a massive human cost behind it.
Outside this holiday, we, the people of the US, should fix the wrongs that still persist today.
Exactly how would you like people to acknowledge the human cost? Should Grandma say "I'm sorry for the Trail of Tears, but thankful for my health" every year? What does that accomplish exactly? Say whatever you like at your table but the performative aspect of what you are suggesting is ridiculous. And until you give up your home and property to fix the wrongs you're a hypocrite. We also means you.
We could acknowledge it in public schools. Include multiple perspectives of history.
In addition to pardoning turkeys, the POTUS could host a function for tribal leaders. Broadcast between football games.
If they are part of “the story”, include their voice.
Yesterday the Mattaponi and Pamunkey tribes paid tribute to Governor Youngkin, as they have every year for 300 years. That includes their voice in the story.
https://www.wric.com/news/local-news/richmond/governor-youngkin-hosts-mattaponi-pamunkey-tribes-for-annual-tax-tribute-ceremony/
I wonder if they discussed his proposed changes to the VA history curriculum that called their ancestors “immigrants”.
They are!
Anonymous
11/25/2022 11:31
Subject: Should so called “thanksgiving” be a national day of mourning?
Anonymous wrote:Indigenous groups and land-back advocates believe so, and they will gather at the rock called Plymouth to demonstrate.
Should we at least change the name?
No. Why would we care? Much too far in the past to give a crap about. Most people in US are decended from people who came here after 1850 so no I don’t care.
Anonymous
11/25/2022 10:35
Subject: Re:Should so called “thanksgiving” be a national day of mourning?
“The antidote to feel-good history is not feel-bad history, but honest and inclusive history.”
—James W. Loewen, Plagues & Pilgrims: The Truth about the First Thanksgiving
—James W. Loewen, Plagues & Pilgrims: The Truth about the First Thanksgiving
Anonymous
11/25/2022 10:34
Subject: Should so called “thanksgiving” be a national day of mourning?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Do you know other cultures have Thanksgiving to celebrate the harvest? They didn’t all conquer North America.
So maybe we shouldn’t have based this holiday on the myth about “pilgrims and Indians”.
Schools are dropping any mention of Indians at all. It's not just turkeys and Pilgrims. Sounds like that ought to make some people happy, everyone will just forget about them.
Yup. They want to pretend like it never happened. Or the people aren’t still suffering today.
Revisionist history to the max.
Not so much revisionist as irrelevant. People are moving forward, why should they dwell on the past when it has nothing to do with them? Obviously the people who were hurt feel differently, but they aren't making much of an impact convincing anyone else to put their needs first. Everyone has their own problems these days.
Why do we bother to learn any history at all? It all happened in the past. Why dwell on any of it?
Maybe if we don’t sugar coat history just to make white people feel comfortable then we can learn from our mistakes and do better in the future.
Ha, as if white people are only bad. So do the Plymouth protestors also cover the section in history where native Americans own African slaves? Yes, it really existed:
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/how-native-american-slaveholders-complicate-trail-tears-narrative-180968339/
Let's also not even get into the entire violent and oppressive histories all across Asia, the Arab slave trade, etc. It's almost as if everyone's history is filled with oppression.
Go crawl under a rock and cry about it, because it will never end.
Strawman. We are talking about *our* history and treatment of indigenous people.
Yes, enslaving people is bad. Also, mass murdering and oppressing indigenous people is wrong.
Why is it so difficult for some people to acknowledge that?
Indigenous history is our history. They owned slaves. Why are we whitewashing native American history? They were slave owners.
Right. The Asian and Arab slave trade is not our history.
As I already said, yes, enslaving people is bad. No one has claimed otherwise.
Also, mass murdering and oppressing indigenous people is wrong. Wouldn’t you agree?
Sure oppressing people is wrong. Germany is wrong for killing millions of Jews. Japan is wrong for killing millions during WW2 too. I don't think Germany and Japan need to be forced to 'mourn' or have a day of 'repenting' for what they did. History is history.
Germany and Japan each paid massive reparations and we do have memorial days. ??
These are people living within our country. Our responsibility continues. Acknowledging their loss is the least we should do.
We already have Indigenous Peoples' Day. And yet, that's not good enough even thought that's what you're asking for. So, what do you really want to happen?
I’m not personally asking for anything.
On Thanksgiving, I do think we, the people in the US, should acknowledge the reality/perspective of the other people who were at this feast of our lore. If we are reflecting on all that we have, we can acknowledge there was also a massive human cost behind it.
Outside this holiday, we, the people of the US, should fix the wrongs that still persist today.
Exactly how would you like people to acknowledge the human cost? Should Grandma say "I'm sorry for the Trail of Tears, but thankful for my health" every year? What does that accomplish exactly? Say whatever you like at your table but the performative aspect of what you are suggesting is ridiculous. And until you give up your home and property to fix the wrongs you're a hypocrite. We also means you.
We could acknowledge it in public schools. Include multiple perspectives of history.
In addition to pardoning turkeys, the POTUS could host a function for tribal leaders. Broadcast between football games.
If they are part of “the story”, include their voice.
Cool, you get on that PSA. Your average person isn't going to tune into a function for tribal leaders. And they will be using the restroom between football games. Are you always this ineffective at change? Lot of lip service with no real impact. Embarrassing. Are you an actual adult?
Yes, many Americans are indifferent and willfully choose ignorance.
Anonymous
11/25/2022 10:33
Subject: Should so called “thanksgiving” be a national day of mourning?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Do you know other cultures have Thanksgiving to celebrate the harvest? They didn’t all conquer North America.
So maybe we shouldn’t have based this holiday on the myth about “pilgrims and Indians”.
Schools are dropping any mention of Indians at all. It's not just turkeys and Pilgrims. Sounds like that ought to make some people happy, everyone will just forget about them.
Yup. They want to pretend like it never happened. Or the people aren’t still suffering today.
Revisionist history to the max.
Not so much revisionist as irrelevant. People are moving forward, why should they dwell on the past when it has nothing to do with them? Obviously the people who were hurt feel differently, but they aren't making much of an impact convincing anyone else to put their needs first. Everyone has their own problems these days.
Why do we bother to learn any history at all? It all happened in the past. Why dwell on any of it?
Maybe if we don’t sugar coat history just to make white people feel comfortable then we can learn from our mistakes and do better in the future.
Ha, as if white people are only bad. So do the Plymouth protestors also cover the section in history where native Americans own African slaves? Yes, it really existed:
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/how-native-american-slaveholders-complicate-trail-tears-narrative-180968339/
Let's also not even get into the entire violent and oppressive histories all across Asia, the Arab slave trade, etc. It's almost as if everyone's history is filled with oppression.
Go crawl under a rock and cry about it, because it will never end.
Strawman. We are talking about *our* history and treatment of indigenous people.
Yes, enslaving people is bad. Also, mass murdering and oppressing indigenous people is wrong.
Why is it so difficult for some people to acknowledge that?
Indigenous history is our history. They owned slaves. Why are we whitewashing native American history? They were slave owners.
Right. The Asian and Arab slave trade is not our history.
As I already said, yes, enslaving people is bad. No one has claimed otherwise.
Also, mass murdering and oppressing indigenous people is wrong. Wouldn’t you agree?
Sure oppressing people is wrong. Germany is wrong for killing millions of Jews. Japan is wrong for killing millions during WW2 too. I don't think Germany and Japan need to be forced to 'mourn' or have a day of 'repenting' for what they did. History is history.
Germany and Japan each paid massive reparations and we do have memorial days. ??
These are people living within our country. Our responsibility continues. Acknowledging their loss is the least we should do.
We already have Indigenous Peoples' Day. And yet, that's not good enough even thought that's what you're asking for. So, what do you really want to happen?
I’m not personally asking for anything.
On Thanksgiving, I do think we, the people in the US, should acknowledge the reality/perspective of the other people who were at this feast of our lore. If we are reflecting on all that we have, we can acknowledge there was also a massive human cost behind it.
Outside this holiday, we, the people of the US, should fix the wrongs that still persist today.
Exactly how would you like people to acknowledge the human cost? Should Grandma say "I'm sorry for the Trail of Tears, but thankful for my health" every year? What does that accomplish exactly? Say whatever you like at your table but the performative aspect of what you are suggesting is ridiculous. And until you give up your home and property to fix the wrongs you're a hypocrite. We also means you.
We could acknowledge it in public schools. Include multiple perspectives of history.
In addition to pardoning turkeys, the POTUS could host a function for tribal leaders. Broadcast between football games.
If they are part of “the story”, include their voice.
Yesterday the Mattaponi and Pamunkey tribes paid tribute to Governor Youngkin, as they have every year for 300 years. That includes their voice in the story.
https://www.wric.com/news/local-news/richmond/governor-youngkin-hosts-mattaponi-pamunkey-tribes-for-annual-tax-tribute-ceremony/
I wonder if they discussed his proposed changes to the VA history curriculum that called their ancestors “immigrants”.
Anonymous
11/25/2022 10:31
Subject: Should so called “thanksgiving” be a national day of mourning?
Ridiculous.
It is a day to feel and express gratitude, which is so healthy and positive. It is not associated with consumerism, rather families spend it together. Probably our best holiday.
No ONE in 2022 is using it to glorify pilgrims. Just stop.
It is a day to feel and express gratitude, which is so healthy and positive. It is not associated with consumerism, rather families spend it together. Probably our best holiday.
No ONE in 2022 is using it to glorify pilgrims. Just stop.
Anonymous
11/25/2022 10:31
Subject: Should so called “thanksgiving” be a national day of mourning?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Assimilation is not a bad thing. Wave after wave of immigrants have been assimilated and now are just Americans.
And for better or worse, American Indians have chosen not to assimilate, or to both assimilate and not assimilate. Not sure that some of these posters know this or are willing to acknowledge this.
They were here first. Europeans chose not to assimilate.
I'm genuinely struck by how good a point this is. No snark.
Ok.
Should the Latinos coming to MoCo assimilate? English only?
Or should mcps cancel Halloween parties because the holiday rubs the newcomers the wrong way due to their religious beliefs?
That’s just one example. But I’m curious what you think. Should everyone assimilate, or should we be a melting pot and evolve?
I wasn't really taking a stance on assimilation itself. But I was thinking that as a general rule when people enter an established culture they do not destroy it. They may completely assimilate. They may create communities of people from their prior culture and interact with the greater population on a limited basis or they may even work to get aspects of their culture into the main stream.
The European settlers took a very different approach.
You would be wrong. Human history up through present day is one story of warring cultures killing each other after another. Thousands of lost cultures. I mean what is Russia doing to Ukraine? But especially 400 years ago that was the worldwide norm.
It isn't "one story" up through present day as you describe.
There were 100 people on the Mayflower. They arrived in a land that was known to be inhabited. Accepting the narrative that they were fleeing persecution or poverty (much like later immigrants) they should have acknowledged that not "warred". Or do you think that persecuted immigrants in modern day America should "war."?
The people on the Mayflower maintained fairly friendly relationships with the remaining Wampanoag (many had already died from disease.) You do know that more people came in the years that followed, right? Relationships were actually pretty good for the first 50 years or so. Read a book.
Huh? 16 years later the colonists massacred the Pequot.
Anonymous
11/25/2022 10:27
Subject: Should so called “thanksgiving” be a national day of mourning?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Do you know other cultures have Thanksgiving to celebrate the harvest? They didn’t all conquer North America.
So maybe we shouldn’t have based this holiday on the myth about “pilgrims and Indians”.
Schools are dropping any mention of Indians at all. It's not just turkeys and Pilgrims. Sounds like that ought to make some people happy, everyone will just forget about them.
Yup. They want to pretend like it never happened. Or the people aren’t still suffering today.
Revisionist history to the max.
Not so much revisionist as irrelevant. People are moving forward, why should they dwell on the past when it has nothing to do with them? Obviously the people who were hurt feel differently, but they aren't making much of an impact convincing anyone else to put their needs first. Everyone has their own problems these days.
Why do we bother to learn any history at all? It all happened in the past. Why dwell on any of it?
Maybe if we don’t sugar coat history just to make white people feel comfortable then we can learn from our mistakes and do better in the future.
Ha, as if white people are only bad. So do the Plymouth protestors also cover the section in history where native Americans own African slaves? Yes, it really existed:
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/how-native-american-slaveholders-complicate-trail-tears-narrative-180968339/
Let's also not even get into the entire violent and oppressive histories all across Asia, the Arab slave trade, etc. It's almost as if everyone's history is filled with oppression.
Go crawl under a rock and cry about it, because it will never end.
Strawman. We are talking about *our* history and treatment of indigenous people.
Yes, enslaving people is bad. Also, mass murdering and oppressing indigenous people is wrong.
Why is it so difficult for some people to acknowledge that?
Indigenous history is our history. They owned slaves. Why are we whitewashing native American history? They were slave owners.
Right. The Asian and Arab slave trade is not our history.
As I already said, yes, enslaving people is bad. No one has claimed otherwise.
Also, mass murdering and oppressing indigenous people is wrong. Wouldn’t you agree?
Sure oppressing people is wrong. Germany is wrong for killing millions of Jews. Japan is wrong for killing millions during WW2 too. I don't think Germany and Japan need to be forced to 'mourn' or have a day of 'repenting' for what they did. History is history.
Germany and Japan each paid massive reparations and we do have memorial days. ??
These are people living within our country. Our responsibility continues. Acknowledging their loss is the least we should do.
We already have Indigenous Peoples' Day. And yet, that's not good enough even thought that's what you're asking for. So, what do you really want to happen?
I’m not personally asking for anything.
On Thanksgiving, I do think we, the people in the US, should acknowledge the reality/perspective of the other people who were at this feast of our lore. If we are reflecting on all that we have, we can acknowledge there was also a massive human cost behind it.
Outside this holiday, we, the people of the US, should fix the wrongs that still persist today.
Exactly how would you like people to acknowledge the human cost? Should Grandma say "I'm sorry for the Trail of Tears, but thankful for my health" every year? What does that accomplish exactly? Say whatever you like at your table but the performative aspect of what you are suggesting is ridiculous. And until you give up your home and property to fix the wrongs you're a hypocrite. We also means you.
We could acknowledge it in public schools. Include multiple perspectives of history.
In addition to pardoning turkeys, the POTUS could host a function for tribal leaders. Broadcast between football games.
If they are part of “the story”, include their voice.
People who say things like this are totally unfamiliar with history curricula and lesson plans. Trust me, the "indigenous" perspective and the "enslaved" perspective receive plenty of coverage.
Not everywhere.
And, in VA, the MAGA governor is trying to rewrite history of indigenous people.
https://nativenewsonline.net/education/va-education-dept-backtracks-from-labeling-native-americans-as-america-s-first-immigrants
Then you are unfamiliar with the current VA history curriculum. So you don't know what you're talking about.
I’m familiar, thanks. Republicans are trying to rewrite history.
Anonymous
11/25/2022 10:18
Subject: Should so called “thanksgiving” be a national day of mourning?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Do you know other cultures have Thanksgiving to celebrate the harvest? They didn’t all conquer North America.
So maybe we shouldn’t have based this holiday on the myth about “pilgrims and Indians”.
Schools are dropping any mention of Indians at all. It's not just turkeys and Pilgrims. Sounds like that ought to make some people happy, everyone will just forget about them.
Yup. They want to pretend like it never happened. Or the people aren’t still suffering today.
Revisionist history to the max.
Not so much revisionist as irrelevant. People are moving forward, why should they dwell on the past when it has nothing to do with them? Obviously the people who were hurt feel differently, but they aren't making much of an impact convincing anyone else to put their needs first. Everyone has their own problems these days.
Why do we bother to learn any history at all? It all happened in the past. Why dwell on any of it?
Maybe if we don’t sugar coat history just to make white people feel comfortable then we can learn from our mistakes and do better in the future.
Ha, as if white people are only bad. So do the Plymouth protestors also cover the section in history where native Americans own African slaves? Yes, it really existed:
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/how-native-american-slaveholders-complicate-trail-tears-narrative-180968339/
Let's also not even get into the entire violent and oppressive histories all across Asia, the Arab slave trade, etc. It's almost as if everyone's history is filled with oppression.
Go crawl under a rock and cry about it, because it will never end.
Strawman. We are talking about *our* history and treatment of indigenous people.
Yes, enslaving people is bad. Also, mass murdering and oppressing indigenous people is wrong.
Why is it so difficult for some people to acknowledge that?
Indigenous history is our history. They owned slaves. Why are we whitewashing native American history? They were slave owners.
Right. The Asian and Arab slave trade is not our history.
As I already said, yes, enslaving people is bad. No one has claimed otherwise.
Also, mass murdering and oppressing indigenous people is wrong. Wouldn’t you agree?
Sure oppressing people is wrong. Germany is wrong for killing millions of Jews. Japan is wrong for killing millions during WW2 too. I don't think Germany and Japan need to be forced to 'mourn' or have a day of 'repenting' for what they did. History is history.
Germany and Japan each paid massive reparations and we do have memorial days. ??
These are people living within our country. Our responsibility continues. Acknowledging their loss is the least we should do.
We already have Indigenous Peoples' Day. And yet, that's not good enough even thought that's what you're asking for. So, what do you really want to happen?
I’m not personally asking for anything.
On Thanksgiving, I do think we, the people in the US, should acknowledge the reality/perspective of the other people who were at this feast of our lore. If we are reflecting on all that we have, we can acknowledge there was also a massive human cost behind it.
Outside this holiday, we, the people of the US, should fix the wrongs that still persist today.
Exactly how would you like people to acknowledge the human cost? Should Grandma say "I'm sorry for the Trail of Tears, but thankful for my health" every year? What does that accomplish exactly? Say whatever you like at your table but the performative aspect of what you are suggesting is ridiculous. And until you give up your home and property to fix the wrongs you're a hypocrite. We also means you.
We could acknowledge it in public schools. Include multiple perspectives of history.
In addition to pardoning turkeys, the POTUS could host a function for tribal leaders. Broadcast between football games.
If they are part of “the story”, include their voice.
People who say things like this are totally unfamiliar with history curricula and lesson plans. Trust me, the "indigenous" perspective and the "enslaved" perspective receive plenty of coverage.
Not everywhere.
And, in VA, the MAGA governor is trying to rewrite history of indigenous people.
https://nativenewsonline.net/education/va-education-dept-backtracks-from-labeling-native-americans-as-america-s-first-immigrants
Then you are unfamiliar with the current VA history curriculum. So you don't know what you're talking about.
PP's link included the actual proposed curriculum. Not sure how that equates to "not knowing what you're talking about."
Anonymous
11/25/2022 09:16
Subject: Should so called “thanksgiving” be a national day of mourning?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Do you know other cultures have Thanksgiving to celebrate the harvest? They didn’t all conquer North America.
So maybe we shouldn’t have based this holiday on the myth about “pilgrims and Indians”.
Schools are dropping any mention of Indians at all. It's not just turkeys and Pilgrims. Sounds like that ought to make some people happy, everyone will just forget about them.
Yup. They want to pretend like it never happened. Or the people aren’t still suffering today.
Revisionist history to the max.
Not so much revisionist as irrelevant. People are moving forward, why should they dwell on the past when it has nothing to do with them? Obviously the people who were hurt feel differently, but they aren't making much of an impact convincing anyone else to put their needs first. Everyone has their own problems these days.
Why do we bother to learn any history at all? It all happened in the past. Why dwell on any of it?
Maybe if we don’t sugar coat history just to make white people feel comfortable then we can learn from our mistakes and do better in the future.
Ha, as if white people are only bad. So do the Plymouth protestors also cover the section in history where native Americans own African slaves? Yes, it really existed:
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/how-native-american-slaveholders-complicate-trail-tears-narrative-180968339/
Let's also not even get into the entire violent and oppressive histories all across Asia, the Arab slave trade, etc. It's almost as if everyone's history is filled with oppression.
Go crawl under a rock and cry about it, because it will never end.
Strawman. We are talking about *our* history and treatment of indigenous people.
Yes, enslaving people is bad. Also, mass murdering and oppressing indigenous people is wrong.
Why is it so difficult for some people to acknowledge that?
Indigenous history is our history. They owned slaves. Why are we whitewashing native American history? They were slave owners.
Right. The Asian and Arab slave trade is not our history.
As I already said, yes, enslaving people is bad. No one has claimed otherwise.
Also, mass murdering and oppressing indigenous people is wrong. Wouldn’t you agree?
Sure oppressing people is wrong. Germany is wrong for killing millions of Jews. Japan is wrong for killing millions during WW2 too. I don't think Germany and Japan need to be forced to 'mourn' or have a day of 'repenting' for what they did. History is history.
Germany and Japan each paid massive reparations and we do have memorial days. ??
These are people living within our country. Our responsibility continues. Acknowledging their loss is the least we should do.
We already have Indigenous Peoples' Day. And yet, that's not good enough even thought that's what you're asking for. So, what do you really want to happen?
I’m not personally asking for anything.
On Thanksgiving, I do think we, the people in the US, should acknowledge the reality/perspective of the other people who were at this feast of our lore. If we are reflecting on all that we have, we can acknowledge there was also a massive human cost behind it.
Outside this holiday, we, the people of the US, should fix the wrongs that still persist today.
Exactly how would you like people to acknowledge the human cost? Should Grandma say "I'm sorry for the Trail of Tears, but thankful for my health" every year? What does that accomplish exactly? Say whatever you like at your table but the performative aspect of what you are suggesting is ridiculous. And until you give up your home and property to fix the wrongs you're a hypocrite. We also means you.
We could acknowledge it in public schools. Include multiple perspectives of history.
In addition to pardoning turkeys, the POTUS could host a function for tribal leaders. Broadcast between football games.
If they are part of “the story”, include their voice.
People who say things like this are totally unfamiliar with history curricula and lesson plans. Trust me, the "indigenous" perspective and the "enslaved" perspective receive plenty of coverage.
Not everywhere.
And, in VA, the MAGA governor is trying to rewrite history of indigenous people.
https://nativenewsonline.net/education/va-education-dept-backtracks-from-labeling-native-americans-as-america-s-first-immigrants
Then you are unfamiliar with the current VA history curriculum. So you don't know what you're talking about.