Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can we get back to the topic?

Brits more likely to luxuriate over high tea in late afternoon than brunch anyway.

It is great to have some family members without kids as they make excellent aunts and uncles and have more time to help care for agreeing parents …

That’s great if child free adults want to be the primary caretaker for aging parents. Otherwise should split care among siblings.

Anonymous wrote:Can we get back to the topic?

Brits more likely to luxuriate over high tea in late afternoon than brunch anyway.

It is great to have some family members without kids as they make excellent aunts and uncles and have more time to help care for agreeing parents …

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is a continuation of a long trend.

More education, more urbanization, more income (and therefore higher opportunity cost of having kids) = fewer children.

+1 I'm East Asian. I got married at 32. Kids at 34. I was considered an old maid by many in my culture, certainly my parents thought so. But this was over a decade ago.

Today, my nieces are hitting 30s, no kids, and no one bats an eye.

Times have changed, thank god.

Women have options now. And if society wants more women to have kids when they are younger, then society needs to change some laws (ahem, men) to make it worthwhile for women. Gone are the days when women had very little choices in life, though I'm sure some men would prefer we go back to the days when men had all the options and women didn't.

Moms are still the default parent (and the default caregiver to elderly parents). I don't see men clamoring to be both the default parent AND have a job like women are doing. Why would that be? Cause it's f*n hard. That's why.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What the hell do you expect?

Wages don't grow. Housing is completely unaffordable. Childcare costs are insane. Healthcare is ludicrous. Even if you had kids, stupid minivan to haul them around to soccer practice now costs $40k. And don't even talk about college costs....

You want to die in poverty? Have a kid.

Younger generations didn't create these problems. They're the ones that have to live with them though. The only solution is to not have kids just so that you can keep your financial head above water.

It's not money, it's decades of Hollywood and feminist propaganda. It's "cool" and "sophisticated" and "worldly" to piss away your prime fertility years living in the big city and traveling and waiting two hours to be seated for a hip brunch and rising the ladder at your make-work career, so you can piss more money away on shoes, travel, and instagram-worthy furniture. #GirlBoss #LeanIn

Oooooo the anti-brunch guy is back!!! I missed you and your rants against women going to brunch!!!

Is it really a dude? Gross.

I assumed it was a cranky old religious hag.

I'm not a "dude" or a "hag". I'm in my mid 40s, married, mother of three, one grandchild, a meaningful career, and all of my children attended top 25 universities. Play coy that being a wine or martini drunk, and wasting weekends away shopping and brunching weren't a "thing" for women over the last two decades. It's basically the premise of SATC. Waste your 20s and 30s and you'll land a Mr Big. Fertility? Don't worry about it! Have hedonistic fun! Millions of women who should have been married and having babies were wasting their lives on nothing. Pointless consumerism, and now, nothing to show for it. No heirs, no legacy, nobody will remember them. Genetic dead ends. Never mind end of life, imagine being stricken with an illness in your 30s 40s 50s and no husband or children to help. Or a husband who is exponentially more likely to leave you because he has no children with you. Never experiencing the joys of grandchildren. It's terribly sad how many women were conned.

Lord if you are only mid-40s, you sound prematurely ANCIENT. It's no longer a badge of honor to become a grandma at 45, sorry. And the fact that you think anything other than birthing babies is a complete waste of life...is deeply sad. I am sure you didn't mean to imply that Mother Theresa was a wasted life, or any woman or man who's struggled with infertility.

And guess what? If childfree people are stricken with illness in their 30s, 40s, 50s, they will pay for things using their very own health insurance that they get from their jobs, and they will get help from their friends and boyfriends and family members if they need it. It's so sad that you think that the only people who would ever help another human being are their spouses or their children. (Also WTF, I know you had your kids young but I doubt they are much help if you have cancer in your 30s.).

I do think there was a short window in which some women were misled. I am genX born in 1969 and I had more than one PHYSICIAN tell me in my 20s that I could start my family at 40 if I wanted to. This was in the early days of IVF when it looked like fertility could be extended for a lot longer than turned out to be feasible. But by the time I was in my 30s that was no longer any kind of conventional wisdom. I had my first of 3 kids at 34, no regrets.

And for the record, nobody watched sex in the city and thought, I will just have brunch and buy shoes and forget about having meaningful relationships. I didn't watch all of it because it seemed kind of stupid to me, but it was all about angst over husbands and babies with Kim Cattrell as the shocking rebel.

People get laid off left and right starting in their 50s. Good health insurance is harder to hold on to as you increasingly become unemployable (and when you really start to need it most.)

And, I’m sorry, but you’re really fooling yourself if you think that friends—many of whom will be occupied with their own families—are going to be dependable in your most desperate times. As you get older, you start to realize how much you appreciate your partner when you need a catheter bag emptied in the middle of the night, when you need a bandage changed on a part of your back that you can’t possibly reach, etc.

I don't care who has babies. But I'm responding to the above, which I've found sadly true. I had some potentially life-altering, major health complications last year. I was laid up for months. Not one of my close friends, who live IN my neighborhood, so much as brought me a meal, ran an errand, etc. Nothing. Too preoccupied with their own lives, apparently. And, to be clear, these are generally good and kind people. So it was surprising and a little disheartening.

I’m the PP and I’m sorry you’ve had a rough time. I don’t care who has babies, either, so maybe my comment wasn’t entirely pertinent to this thread. But I was responding specifically to the PP, and others in their 20s and 30s, who are very cavalier about marriage, partnering up, family, etc. The “I don’t need anyone to take care of me, I’ve got my job!” and “I don’t need a family of my own, I’ve got my girl squad!” Just saying to you all, good luck with that. I’ve watched a few single, childless people come to some very tragic ends in my extended family.

You need better friends. When my friends need help we start a food delivery sked, with a rotation to make sure they are cared for whatever their marital or other status.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also she brags about her 21 year old daughter who married a med student. So old school. I would rather that my daughter was the doctor, not the doctors wife.

+100

Anonymous wrote:Also she brags about her 21 year old daughter who married a med student. So old school. I would rather that my daughter was the doctor, not the doctors wife.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am glad I didn't marry anybody I was dating in my early 20s. I was so immature and irresponsible, imagine adding a husband and babies on top of me not even understanding how credit cards worked or how to pay utilities?

Marriage and kid(s) force you to grow up faster. My dad 50 years ago was sort of a slacker, he immediately quit chain smoking cigarettes and drinking, and started his own company when I was born.

For every unemployed drunk who does get it together, there’s a dozen who continue drinking and slacking off after the kid arrives, and mom is trying to keep everything together. Just read the threads here - how many are about incompetent men who can’t even handle picking up a child from school?

We are specifically talking about modern men on a web forum based in the most educated region in the United States (DMV). Nobody here is talking about "unemployed drunks," we're talking about credentialed yuppies in their 20s, who might not be "rich, rich" but are rich relative to the average 20-something, plus have at least one degree, boundless resources, and health insurance. And yes, literally everyone I know in fitting that demo who had a surprise pregnancy immediately grew up and started acting exponentially more responsible.

The PP literally said her father was a smoker, drinker, and slacker.

We are also talking about early 20s people, which is very different than yuppies in their late 20s. People in DC generally don’t reproduce in their early 20s, which is perhaps why more men are able to step it up. An early 20s man who just graduated, is doing an internship, and living with 3 other dudes isn’t going to be able to handle marriage and kids.

Either way, this forum in the most educated region of the US is full of threads about dads who did not step it up and still can’t handle basic household and childcare tasks. So if DMV men can’t get it together with everything they have, probably not a good idea to continue encouraging people to get married and have kids by 23.

What is with this obsession with infantilizing grown ass men (and women) and seizing on 22 year olds? For one, there are quite a few years between "intern" and 35 (we know your motives for seizing on 22 year olds ). Two, even at 22 or 23, with a college degree and making $50k-plus in a big city career with good health care, you're doing better than about 99.9% of your peers globally. I promise having that baby in your early or mid 20s is going to bring you exponentially more joy and maturity to your life than another 5 to 10 to 15 years of aimless drifting in the big city.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am glad I didn't marry anybody I was dating in my early 20s. I was so immature and irresponsible, imagine adding a husband and babies on top of me not even understanding how credit cards worked or how to pay utilities?

Marriage and kid(s) force you to grow up faster. My dad 50 years ago was sort of a slacker, he immediately quit chain smoking cigarettes and drinking, and started his own company when I was born.

For every unemployed drunk who does get it together, there’s a dozen who continue drinking and slacking off after the kid arrives, and mom is trying to keep everything together. Just read the threads here - how many are about incompetent men who can’t even handle picking up a child from school?

We are specifically talking about modern men on a web forum based in the most educated region in the United States (DMV). Nobody here is talking about "unemployed drunks," we're talking about credentialed yuppies in their 20s, who might not be "rich, rich" but are rich relative to the average 20-something, plus have at least one degree, boundless resources, and health insurance. And yes, literally everyone I know in fitting that demo who had a surprise pregnancy immediately grew up and started acting exponentially more responsible.

The PP literally said her father was a smoker, drinker, and slacker.

We are also talking about early 20s people, which is very different than yuppies in their late 20s. People in DC generally don’t reproduce in their early 20s, which is perhaps why more men are able to step it up. An early 20s man who just graduated, is doing an internship, and living with 3 other dudes isn’t going to be able to handle marriage and kids.

Either way, this forum in the most educated region of the US is full of threads about dads who did not step it up and still can’t handle basic household and childcare tasks. So if DMV men can’t get it together with everything they have, probably not a good idea to continue encouraging people to get married and have kids by 23.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am glad I didn't marry anybody I was dating in my early 20s. I was so immature and irresponsible, imagine adding a husband and babies on top of me not even understanding how credit cards worked or how to pay utilities?

Marriage and kid(s) force you to grow up faster. My dad 50 years ago was sort of a slacker, he immediately quit chain smoking cigarettes and drinking, and started his own company when I was born.

you realize... that's not how it works for everyone

The optimal time to start a lasting first union or marriage is around age 30. Marrying before one reaches the age of 25 seems unwise, given the higher divorce rates.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am glad I didn't marry anybody I was dating in my early 20s. I was so immature and irresponsible, imagine adding a husband and babies on top of me not even understanding how credit cards worked or how to pay utilities?

Marriage and kid(s) force you to grow up faster. My dad 50 years ago was sort of a slacker, he immediately quit chain smoking cigarettes and drinking, and started his own company when I was born.

For every unemployed drunk who does get it together, there’s a dozen who continue drinking and slacking off after the kid arrives, and mom is trying to keep everything together. Just read the threads here - how many are about incompetent men who can’t even handle picking up a child from school?

We are specifically talking about modern men on a web forum based in the most educated region in the United States (DMV). Nobody here is talking about "unemployed drunks," we're talking about credentialed yuppies in their 20s, who might not be "rich, rich" but are rich relative to the average 20-something, plus have at least one degree, boundless resources, and health insurance. And yes, literally everyone I know in fitting that demo who had a surprise pregnancy immediately grew up and started acting exponentially more responsible.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am glad I didn't marry anybody I was dating in my early 20s. I was so immature and irresponsible, imagine adding a husband and babies on top of me not even understanding how credit cards worked or how to pay utilities?

Marriage and kid(s) force you to grow up faster. My dad 50 years ago was sort of a slacker, he immediately quit chain smoking cigarettes and drinking, and started his own company when I was born.

For every unemployed drunk who does get it together, there’s a dozen who continue drinking and slacking off after the kid arrives, and mom is trying to keep everything together. Just read the threads here - how many are about incompetent men who can’t even handle picking up a child from school?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What the hell do you expect?

Wages don't grow. Housing is completely unaffordable. Childcare costs are insane. Healthcare is ludicrous. Even if you had kids, stupid minivan to haul them around to soccer practice now costs $40k. And don't even talk about college costs....

You want to die in poverty? Have a kid.

Younger generations didn't create these problems. They're the ones that have to live with them though. The only solution is to not have kids just so that you can keep your financial head above water.

It's not money, it's decades of Hollywood and feminist propaganda. It's "cool" and "sophisticated" and "worldly" to piss away your prime fertility years living in the big city and traveling and waiting two hours to be seated for a hip brunch and rising the ladder at your make-work career, so you can piss more money away on shoes, travel, and instagram-worthy furniture. #GirlBoss #LeanIn

Oooooo the anti-brunch guy is back!!! I missed you and your rants against women going to brunch!!!

Is it really a dude? Gross.

I assumed it was a cranky old religious hag.

I'm not a "dude" or a "hag". I'm in my mid 40s, married, mother of three, one grandchild, a meaningful career, and all of my children attended top 25 universities. Play coy that being a wine or martini drunk, and wasting weekends away shopping and brunching weren't a "thing" for women over the last two decades. It's basically the premise of SATC. Waste your 20s and 30s and you'll land a Mr Big. Fertility? Don't worry about it! Have hedonistic fun! Millions of women who should have been married and having babies were wasting their lives on nothing. Pointless consumerism, and now, nothing to show for it. No heirs, no legacy, nobody will remember them. Genetic dead ends. Never mind end of life, imagine being stricken with an illness in your 30s 40s 50s and no husband or children to help. Or a husband who is exponentially more likely to leave you because he has no children with you. Never experiencing the joys of grandchildren. It's terribly sad how many women were conned.

Lord if you are only mid-40s, you sound prematurely ANCIENT. It's no longer a badge of honor to become a grandma at 45, sorry. And the fact that you think anything other than birthing babies is a complete waste of life...is deeply sad. I am sure you didn't mean to imply that Mother Theresa was a wasted life, or any woman or man who's struggled with infertility.

And guess what? If childfree people are stricken with illness in their 30s, 40s, 50s, they will pay for things using their very own health insurance that they get from their jobs, and they will get help from their friends and boyfriends and family members if they need it. It's so sad that you think that the only people who would ever help another human being are their spouses or their children. (Also WTF, I know you had your kids young but I doubt they are much help if you have cancer in your 30s.).

I do think there was a short window in which some women were misled. I am genX born in 1969 and I had more than one PHYSICIAN tell me in my 20s that I could start my family at 40 if I wanted to. This was in the early days of IVF when it looked like fertility could be extended for a lot longer than turned out to be feasible. But by the time I was in my 30s that was no longer any kind of conventional wisdom. I had my first of 3 kids at 34, no regrets.

And for the record, nobody watched sex in the city and thought, I will just have brunch and buy shoes and forget about having meaningful relationships. I didn't watch all of it because it seemed kind of stupid to me, but it was all about angst over husbands and babies with Kim Cattrell as the shocking rebel.

People get laid off left and right starting in their 50s. Good health insurance is harder to hold on to as you increasingly become unemployable (and when you really start to need it most.)

And, I’m sorry, but you’re really fooling yourself if you think that friends—many of whom will be occupied with their own families—are going to be dependable in your most desperate times. As you get older, you start to realize how much you appreciate your partner when you need a catheter bag emptied in the middle of the night, when you need a bandage changed on a part of your back that you can’t possibly reach, etc.

I don't care who has babies. But I'm responding to the above, which I've found sadly true. I had some potentially life-altering, major health complications last year. I was laid up for months. Not one of my close friends, who live IN my neighborhood, so much as brought me a meal, ran an errand, etc. Nothing. Too preoccupied with their own lives, apparently. And, to be clear, these are generally good and kind people. So it was surprising and a little disheartening.

I’m the PP and I’m sorry you’ve had a rough time. I don’t care who has babies, either, so maybe my comment wasn’t entirely pertinent to this thread. But I was responding specifically to the PP, and others in their 20s and 30s, who are very cavalier about marriage, partnering up, family, etc. The “I don’t need anyone to take care of me, I’ve got my job!” and “I don’t need a family of my own, I’ve got my girl squad!” Just saying to you all, good luck with that. I’ve watched a few single, childless people come to some very tragic ends in my extended family.

But getting married and having children is NOT insurance against having a "tragic" end! One of the spouses will die first! If you live long enough, some of your CHILDREN might even predecease you. I know a lot of child-free and unmarried folks, and they're not cavalier about their life choices, at all. Some would have liked to get married but never met the right person. One met the right one but he didn't want kids. They are very happy together with their dogs and zillions of nieces and nephews. One friend was widowed at age 45.

The point is that there are no guarantees in life, so everyone needs to make the best decisions they can. I've lived long enough to see that your "support network" can include a variety of types of people and relationships. Also I've seen first hand how excellent and careful retirement planning makes an ENORMOUS difference when people get really old and/or sick.