Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The National Council of Asian Pacific Americans (a coalition of 34 of the leading national organizations representing various Asian-American ethnic groups) issued a statement saying that they also reviewed the Harvard data and did not find intentional or implicit bias against Asian-American applicants.

Other influential Asian-American civil liberties groups didn't support the statement, particularly those representing Chinese immigrants and those on the West Coast.

If this is the case then anti-Asian bias must be addressed, which is independent of affirmative action.

Anonymous wrote:The National Council of Asian Pacific Americans (a coalition of 34 of the leading national organizations representing various Asian-American ethnic groups) issued a statement saying that they also reviewed the Harvard data and did not find intentional or implicit bias against Asian-American applicants.

Other influential Asian-American civil liberties groups didn't support the statement, particularly those representing Chinese immigrants and those on the West Coast.

It’s racist to keep perpetuating the myth of Asians as the model minority and as academic powerhouses. If Asian students are being discriminated against, it should be addressed. It really has nothing to do with affirmative action because applicants compete against all other applicants.

I'm impressed by how sure everyone is about their conclusions. (Except that legacy and athletic admits should be dumped. That's clear.)

Yes, it makes no sense that people with the similar socioeconomic backgrounds are treated differently. Except that Asian students are highly overrepresented among applicants with high test scores.

https://www.brookings.edu/research/race-gaps-in-sat-scores-highlight-inequality-and-hinder-upward-mobility/

"But in fact, among top scorers—those scoring between a 750 and 800—60 percent are Asian and 33 percent are white, compared to 5 percent Latino and 2 percent black."

So drop test scores, because they are clearly biased, right? Except what do you think is harder to game? SATs or essays? Grades are also hard to game, but what about the talented kids from bad schools? Admissions experts can correct me, but it seems that those grades from those schools are pretty meaningless, but good test scores can offset that.

But weighting test scores, along with grades, which are more important, would result in black and Hispanic students being even more underrepresented at selective schools. There's no reason to think that they are less talented, driven, and capable of being successful, so there's something clearly wrong about that outcome. However, if they are too underprepared, then perhaps very demanding schools aren't a good fit.

As selective schools always say, there are many more qualified students than they can admit. So why not choose 3 times as many as they can admit and randomly draw from them? Of course, that will never happen.

This is damn hard, and there are no simple answers.

The National Council of Asian Pacific Americans (a coalition of 34 of the leading national organizations representing various Asian-American ethnic groups) issued a statement saying that they also reviewed the Harvard data and did not find intentional or implicit bias against Asian-American applicants.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Again, we need to stop viewing it as an Asian slot is going to an AA student who isn’t qualified. Students are not accepted or rejected to colleges solely based on race or ethnicity.

Come on, Harvard was found mainly to be rejecting Asians on the basis of their collective undesirable personalities (much too low-key for Harvard as a group, not "likeable" enough).

We're in an alternative universe when one poor Asian applicant after another with SATs of 1400-1600 can't compete with poor AAs with SATs of 1000-1200 for the same spots at our nation's top colleges and universities. This sort of unequal treatment in admissions has gone too far for too long. That's why Harvard and Chapel Hill have been sued. That's why more colleges will be sued over race-based admissions if the Supreme Court punts on the Chapel Hill case, or rules in favor of the defendant.

Asian applicants also cant complete with relatively lower-scoring whites who bump way more Asian from selective college spots than do black applicants, who apply in much lower numbers.

So are no Asians being accepted to top tier schools?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Again, we need to stop viewing it as an Asian slot is going to an AA student who isn’t qualified. Students are not accepted or rejected to colleges solely based on race or ethnicity.

Come on, Harvard was found mainly to be rejecting Asians on the basis of their collective undesirable personalities (much too low-key for Harvard as a group, not "likeable" enough).

We're in an alternative universe when one poor Asian applicant after another with SATs of 1400-1600 can't compete with poor AAs with SATs of 1000-1200 for the same spots at our nation's top colleges and universities. This sort of unequal treatment in admissions has gone too far for too long. That's why Harvard and Chapel Hill have been sued. That's why more colleges will be sued over race-based admissions if the Supreme Court punts on the Chapel Hill case, or rules in favor of the defendant.

Asian applicants also cant complete with relatively lower-scoring whites who bump way more Asian from selective college spots than do black applicants, who apply in much lower numbers.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Again, we need to stop viewing it as an Asian slot is going to an AA student who isn’t qualified. Students are not accepted or rejected to colleges solely based on race or ethnicity.

Come on, Harvard was found mainly to be rejecting Asians on the basis of their collective undesirable personalities (much too low-key for Harvard as a group, not "likeable" enough).

We're in an alternative universe when one poor Asian applicant after another with SATs of 1400-1600 can't compete with poor AAs with SATs of 1000-1200 for the same spots at our nation's top colleges and universities. This sort of unequal treatment in admissions has gone too far for too long. That's why Harvard and Chapel Hill have been sued. That's why more colleges will be sued over race-based admissions if the Supreme Court punts on the Chapel Hill case, or rules in favor of the defendant.

You have such a staggering superiority complex! It’s breathtaking. Asian applicants compete with all other applicants.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This Jewish person really liked this new book. Too many echoes of the way Jews were treated in Ivy admissions in the first half of the 20th century in the way Asians are being treated now. If low SES AA applicants/Banneker grads can score in the 500s-600s on SATs and get admitted, low SES Asian-Americans should be able to as well. Better yet, everybody scores high to be admitted or SAT become optional universally as suggested above.

https://www.amazon.com/Inconvenient-Minority-American-Excellence-Meritocracy-ebook/dp/B08MQN8J6D/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Amazon.com%3A+An+Inconvenient+Minority%3A+The+Attack+on+Asian+American+Excellence+and+the+Fight+for+Meritocracy+eBook+%3A+Xu%2C+Kenny%3A+Kindle+Store&qid=1635528927&qsid=134-4493894-6523123&sr=8-1-fkmr1&sres=B0154QEQ4K%2CB07G78FYFL%2C1635767563%2CB01N3777ZT%2CB004LLIKVU%2CB07WDYVP3P%2CB07FZ8S74R%2CB07KK854S9%2CB08MQN8J6D%2CB003006WRC%2CB01FIS88SY%2CB079RDRZ15

This. And I'm an African-American parent who is offended that less is expected of my children simply on account of their race. If "holistic" admissions is a thing, it needs to be "holistic" for everyone, not just hard-working low-SES black kids, deserving and as full-of-potential as they may be.

+1000. We need universal holistic admissions in this country to keep our Jeffersonian Democracy afloat. Lackluster standardized test scores that only work for minorities and specially recruited applicants in elite college admissions need to go.

Agree! Standardized tests need to go!

If the tests go, aren't we papering over the problem of widespread grade inflation to disguise weak preparation for college as a society? Is it a safe assumption that the SAT tests no useful academic skills?

Shall we get rid of AP tests next, because too many test takers with certain backgrounds don't score 4s and 5s?

Anonymous wrote:Again, we need to stop viewing it as an Asian slot is going to an AA student who isn’t qualified. Students are not accepted or rejected to colleges solely based on race or ethnicity.

Come on, Harvard was found mainly to be rejecting Asians on the basis of their collective undesirable personalities (much too low-key for Harvard as a group, not "likeable" enough).

We're in an alternative universe when one poor Asian applicant after another with SATs of 1400-1600 can't compete with poor AAs with SATs of 1000-1200 for the same spots at our nation's top colleges and universities. This sort of unequal treatment in admissions has gone too far for too long. That's why Harvard and Chapel Hill have been sued. That's why more colleges will be sued over race-based admissions if the Supreme Court punts on the Chapel Hill case, or rules in favor of the defendant.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This Jewish person really liked this new book. Too many echoes of the way Jews were treated in Ivy admissions in the first half of the 20th century in the way Asians are being treated now. If low SES AA applicants/Banneker grads can score in the 500s-600s on SATs and get admitted, low SES Asian-Americans should be able to as well. Better yet, everybody scores high to be admitted or SAT become optional universally as suggested above.

https://www.amazon.com/Inconvenient-Minority-American-Excellence-Meritocracy-ebook/dp/B08MQN8J6D/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Amazon.com%3A+An+Inconvenient+Minority%3A+The+Attack+on+Asian+American+Excellence+and+the+Fight+for+Meritocracy+eBook+%3A+Xu%2C+Kenny%3A+Kindle+Store&qid=1635528927&qsid=134-4493894-6523123&sr=8-1-fkmr1&sres=B0154QEQ4K%2CB07G78FYFL%2C1635767563%2CB01N3777ZT%2CB004LLIKVU%2CB07WDYVP3P%2CB07FZ8S74R%2CB07KK854S9%2CB08MQN8J6D%2CB003006WRC%2CB01FIS88SY%2CB079RDRZ15

This. And I'm an African-American parent who is offended that less is expected of my children simply on account of their race. If "holistic" admissions is a thing, it needs to be "holistic" for everyone, not just hard-working low-SES black kids, deserving and as full-of-potential as they may be.

+1000. We need universal holistic admissions in this country to keep our Jeffersonian Democracy afloat. Lackluster standardized test scores that only work for minorities and specially recruited applicants in elite college admissions need to go.

Agree! Standardized tests need to go!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This Jewish person really liked this new book. Too many echoes of the way Jews were treated in Ivy admissions in the first half of the 20th century in the way Asians are being treated now. If low SES AA applicants/Banneker grads can score in the 500s-600s on SATs and get admitted, low SES Asian-Americans should be able to as well. Better yet, everybody scores high to be admitted or SAT become optional universally as suggested above.

https://www.amazon.com/Inconvenient-Minority-American-Excellence-Meritocracy-ebook/dp/B08MQN8J6D/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Amazon.com%3A+An+Inconvenient+Minority%3A+The+Attack+on+Asian+American+Excellence+and+the+Fight+for+Meritocracy+eBook+%3A+Xu%2C+Kenny%3A+Kindle+Store&qid=1635528927&qsid=134-4493894-6523123&sr=8-1-fkmr1&sres=B0154QEQ4K%2CB07G78FYFL%2C1635767563%2CB01N3777ZT%2CB004LLIKVU%2CB07WDYVP3P%2CB07FZ8S74R%2CB07KK854S9%2CB08MQN8J6D%2CB003006WRC%2CB01FIS88SY%2CB079RDRZ15

This. And I'm an African-American parent who is offended that less is expected of my children simply on account of their race. If "holistic" admissions is a thing, it needs to be "holistic" for everyone, not just hard-working low-SES black kids, deserving and as full-of-potential as they may be.

+1000. We need universal holistic admissions in this country to keep our Jeffersonian Democracy afloat. Lackluster standardized test scores that only work for minorities and specially recruited applicants in elite college admissions need to go.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm white and graduated from an Ivy. My spouse is Asian and also graduated from an Ivy. We come from working-class backgrounds/first generation college.

The day when elite American colleges can admit whomever they want, however they want, seems to be drawing to a close. Harvard didn't have an easy time of it from 2014-2018 with the Students for Fair Admissions suit, although technically the university was cleared. Harvard's admission rates for Asians has risen by at least 5 percentage points since 2014. Now Edward Blum's Project on Fair Representation has Chapel Hill in its sights. A ruling beating back consideration of race in admissions at a public university would set the tone for private institutions if a precedent assailing affirmative action is established. I'd wager that this Court will go at Chapel Hill in a couple of years. Private colleges and universities in this country aren't entirely private of course, being dependent on government grants and subsidized student loan programs to survive.

The days when AA students can be admitted to elite colleges, both public and private, with SAT scores that are, on average, 400 points lower than those of Asian applicants appear numbered due to Trump's SC appointments. It might behoove the Banneker community to take note.

But why don’t you go after the rich white families with legacy status and low test scores with this much vitriol? I don’t get it. I mean I get it that you have something against AA students that’s crystal clear. AA student still make up a very small percentage of Ivy League and top tier admittance. Yet this seems to be the population with which you have some weird fixation.

Not PP you're responding to, but in fact AA students are OVER-represented at some elite schools, including some Ivies, compared to their percentage of the overall population: https://www.jbhe.com/2021/04/blacks-make-up-18-percent-of-admitted-students-at-harvard-university/

I don't have a problem with that so long as they had to meet the same admissions requirements as everyone else, but they have not had to do that because of longstanding affirmative action advantages granted to them. They get in because of their race, even though they are less qualified, while others do not get in because they are the "wrong" race.

If you want a truly fair system for elite institutions, drop all the legacy, athletics, rich parent preferences being granted to (mainly) white applicants, and drop the affirmative action advantages too. Base it on scores and grades and recommendations, and if you want to give anyone a leg up, make it because of their socioeconomic disadvantage, not the color of their skin.

totally agree with this. Legacie admits are insane and don't exist in other countries, and basically amount to affirmative action for white people. Look at the racial breakdown at schools that dont admit legacies, like MIT -- whites are not in the majority.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This Jewish person really liked this new book. Too many echoes of the way Jews were treated in Ivy admissions in the first half of the 20th century in the way Asians are being treated now. If low SES AA applicants/Banneker grads can score in the 500s-600s on SATs and get admitted, low SES Asian-Americans should be able to as well. Better yet, everybody scores high to be admitted or SAT become optional universally as suggested above.

https://www.amazon.com/Inconvenient-Minority-American-Excellence-Meritocracy-ebook/dp/B08MQN8J6D/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Amazon.com%3A+An+Inconvenient+Minority%3A+The+Attack+on+Asian+American+Excellence+and+the+Fight+for+Meritocracy+eBook+%3A+Xu%2C+Kenny%3A+Kindle+Store&qid=1635528927&qsid=134-4493894-6523123&sr=8-1-fkmr1&sres=B0154QEQ4K%2CB07G78FYFL%2C1635767563%2CB01N3777ZT%2CB004LLIKVU%2CB07WDYVP3P%2CB07FZ8S74R%2CB07KK854S9%2CB08MQN8J6D%2CB003006WRC%2CB01FIS88SY%2CB079RDRZ15

This. And I'm an African-American parent who is offended that less is expected of my children simply on account of their race. If "holistic" admissions is a thing, it needs to be "holistic" for everyone, not just hard-working low-SES black kids, deserving and as full-of-potential as they may be.

I’m white, first to graduate HS in my family, and bombed my SATs. I graduated with honors from college. Did some student score higher on the SATs than me? Yes absolutely but I was better at other things than they were. I was also from an area of the country where they don’t get many applicants. SAT scores are only one factor.

Anonymous wrote:This Jewish person really liked this new book. Too many echoes of the way Jews were treated in Ivy admissions in the first half of the 20th century in the way Asians are being treated now. If low SES AA applicants/Banneker grads can score in the 500s-600s on SATs and get admitted, low SES Asian-Americans should be able to as well. Better yet, everybody scores high to be admitted or SAT become optional universally as suggested above.

https://www.amazon.com/Inconvenient-Minority-American-Excellence-Meritocracy-ebook/dp/B08MQN8J6D/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Amazon.com%3A+An+Inconvenient+Minority%3A+The+Attack+on+Asian+American+Excellence+and+the+Fight+for+Meritocracy+eBook+%3A+Xu%2C+Kenny%3A+Kindle+Store&qid=1635528927&qsid=134-4493894-6523123&sr=8-1-fkmr1&sres=B0154QEQ4K%2CB07G78FYFL%2C1635767563%2CB01N3777ZT%2CB004LLIKVU%2CB07WDYVP3P%2CB07FZ8S74R%2CB07KK854S9%2CB08MQN8J6D%2CB003006WRC%2CB01FIS88SY%2CB079RDRZ15

This. And I'm an African-American parent who is offended that less is expected of my children simply on account of their race. If "holistic" admissions is a thing, it needs to be "holistic" for everyone, not just hard-working low-SES black kids, deserving and as full-of-potential as they may be.