Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Are the extension students at Harvard taking classes alongside Harvard College students? It’s doubtful many are since 70% of the courses are given online. I think it’s wonderful that Columbia allows 1/3 of its undergraduates to be non traditional students and in classrooms with those brilliant 18 year olds. USNWR rewards them for this as well, by not reporting the huge percentage of students entering without the stellar grades and scores.

Yes, they are. HES students can sit in for the same in-person classes as Harvard College students, as well as online classes. About 1,000 sit in for a ALB degree. Harvard does not report this data, neither does Penn, which awards bachelor degrees to nontraditional students through the School of Liberal and Professional Studies.

I’m sure that the vast majority are taking mostly online classes however. Be it as it may, Columbia brings it to a whole new level. 1/3 of its undergraduates in the SGS!

No, you're wrong. And they get the ALB degree that has been the focal point of complaint by quite a few Harvard students because HES students frequently present themselves as Harvard College grads. Columbia enrolls about 2,000 non-traditional students. So, you're saying that veterans (who compose a large percentage of SGS) who fought and bled for our country don't really deserve to get an Ivy League education? What's wrong with expanding access to an elite education? Aren't universities meant to increase social mobility? I am really at a loss of words.

You’re projecting too much. I never said anything about veterans. I’m saying that Columbia’s ranking is too high because USNWR rewards it for having way too high of a percentage of its transfer students in its undergraduate program. The vast majority of those students would never be admitted as freshman. The data provided by Columbia and distributed by USNWR give it an air of ultra eliteness. Is that really an accurate picture?

Columbia grad here. Not PP. I can vouch for the undergraduate college (CC) and engineering (SEAS), they are about as "elite" as any Ivy can be. But no, we don't have too high of a percentage of transfer students. At most 5% of the class, and it's very competitive, the acceptance rate is just as low as getting in as freshman. GS-wise, I am not really sure haha. It's in a league of its own, and the campus is quite segregated I would say, because GS people don't live on campus and tend to be much older, so they don't really interact with CC or SEAS students. It used to be exclusively for military folks, but I think now they've included community college transfers... They were never included in the rankings to begin with. I don't even think the school ever reports GS data. It's been doing so for the past 15-20 years, and it's not like GS is some hidden secret from USNWR editors.

Can we stop talking about Columbia. It's a great school, just not HYPSM.

Although I would say that Columbia's undergraduate school may not be as desirable or prestigious as HYPSM, the school overall is better than some of those 5 schools.

With strong humanities, social sciences, and STEM departments, this puts Columbia in the tier of Harvard, Stanford, Princeton, and Berkeley for the arts and sciences. For professional schools, while they are not as good as Harvard and Stanford's, is still the third best overall when including law, medicine, business, international affairs, public health, journalism, etc.

Yale's weakness in STEM, and especially in engineering, is an embarrassment to the school at this point, and their business and med school isn't elite. While Princeton is strong across the arts and sciences, their lack of professional grad schools make it a school that shouldn't be grouped with universities that are elite in virtually all areas. The same argument goes for MIT, which is basically a one-trick pony in STEM (aside from business and some social sciences).

In other words, only two of the HYPSM schools are truly better than Columbia, and they are Harvard and Stanford. Columbia is a better school overall than Yale, Princeton, and MIT. I'm not saying that Columbia is more prestigious than these three schools, but objectively better from an academic standpoint.

A lot of BS to unpack here.
Columbia is NO better than #6. Period. No matter whether ranking just the undergraduate program or the full university.
Yale beats Columbia! No contest!
Columbia does offer a NYC campus which is very desirable to many.
A #6 ranking is great for Columbia. HYPSM are the elite of the elite tier and have been for multiple decades.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:"When are we going to finally reject the often preposterous, and immensely harmful, college arms race perpetuated by US News Best College ? "

Who's "we"? Go ahead, you first.

Obviously just like one person cannot mitigate the pandemic by themselves, one person cannot change the group think about obsessing over US News college rankings that is driving up tuition costs for all students and has misplaced focus on self perpetuating college reputations.

sorry, but I think any reasonable person does look at the rankings. The USNWR ranking definitely has its flaws but I want my kid to go somewhere in the top 30 or so. If they don't get in, it's not the end of the world obviously, but a lot more doors open when you graduate from one of the better name schools.

You are no doubt right (I also want my children to do well in life like everyone else) -/ but the obsession with US News rankings is not healthy and is harming the younger generation - college attendance rates are declining and tuition rates are soaring … SMI and other experts link this in large part to huge costs incurred by colleges to drive up applications even among students with no chance of being admitted and drive down admission rates. At the same time, many classes are taught by poorly paid and overworked adjuncts. Way too much money spent in n marketing and way too little on teaching.

yeah, but that's just a general criticism of the higher education business today. That's due mostly to feckless administrators, don't blame USNWR

Did you read the social mobility index post? - they are inextricably linked. Not blaming the US News ranking for the college reputation arms race is like saying don’t blame the kitchen staff for the food being served up …

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"When are we going to finally reject the often preposterous, and immensely harmful, college arms race perpetuated by US News Best College ? "

Who's "we"? Go ahead, you first.

Obviously just like one person cannot mitigate the pandemic by themselves, one person cannot change the group think about obsessing over US News college rankings that is driving up tuition costs for all students and has misplaced focus on self perpetuating college reputations.

sorry, but I think any reasonable person does look at the rankings. The USNWR ranking definitely has its flaws but I want my kid to go somewhere in the top 30 or so. If they don't get in, it's not the end of the world obviously, but a lot more doors open when you graduate from one of the better name schools.

You are no doubt right (I also want my children to do well in life like everyone else) -/ but the obsession with US News rankings is not healthy and is harming the younger generation - college attendance rates are declining and tuition rates are soaring … SMI and other experts link this in large part to huge costs incurred by colleges to drive up applications even among students with no chance of being admitted and drive down admission rates. At the same time, many classes are taught by poorly paid and overworked adjuncts. Way too much money spent in n marketing and way too little on teaching.

yeah, but that's just a general criticism of the higher education business today. That's due mostly to feckless administrators, don't blame USNWR

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“I don’t see the issue. What is wrong with older students intermingling with the undergraduates. Older students bring life experience and different perspectives which can make class discussions more interesting and engaging.”

There is nothing wrong with it at all. But how much intermingling with transferred/non traditional students is acceptable when a rating system uses data from mostly accepted/matriculated 18 years olds to support its rankings. This is where I have a problem with a school like Columbia who has a huge percentage of their undergrads in the SGS taking classes alongside those from CC. They are basing their eliteness at USNWR off those 18 year olds and completely ignoring the 1/3 of the undergraduates who are not included in that data set. Is it so hard to understand why this might be a problem? The SGS is not an extension school like the one at Harvard. USNWR should clarify to its readers that this is not a typical practice at most elite schools. On the contrary, it rewards Columbia for not reporting that it’s overall student body is more than likely NOT the caliber of HYPSM by giving it an elevated ranking that it might otherwise not deserve.

Not a Columbia grad. But I think YOU are the problem. Not Columbia admitting a bunch of veterans or CC transfers to improve equitable access to a highly valued ivy league education. If Columbia is obligated to report that additional data, then Harvard might have to report its extension school data too. You don't provide any justification why the two are fundamentally different besides basing your argument on your own biases against Columbia. From an outsider's POV, they seem about the same to me.

SGS at Columbia is a special program for adults to received a BA as a separate degree from the College. They are two SEPARATE institutions at Columbia.

The real ivy league program with the 3.7% admissions this year ( and 5.1-6 % admissions in previous years) you are addressing is Columbia College.

SGS is a great program for adults and students who took time out from study either after high school or at som later time and decided to return to higher education. Their admissions has nothing to do with Columbia College, and they receive a separate BA which says SGS.

USNWR knows all about this. the only one whodoes not seem to appreciate this distinction is you. Maybe you ar the one in need of an opportunity to return to higher education as an adult. Why don't you apply to SGS? I m sure its admissions committee would be intrigued by your application and consider you either for admissions or make recommendation that you get some therapy to overcome whatever personal esteeem difficulties you are facing.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"When are we going to finally reject the often preposterous, and immensely harmful, college arms race perpetuated by US News Best College ? "

Who's "we"? Go ahead, you first.

Obviously just like one person cannot mitigate the pandemic by themselves, one person cannot change the group think about obsessing over US News college rankings that is driving up tuition costs for all students and has misplaced focus on self perpetuating college reputations.

sorry, but I think any reasonable person does look at the rankings. The USNWR ranking definitely has its flaws but I want my kid to go somewhere in the top 30 or so. If they don't get in, it's not the end of the world obviously, but a lot more doors open when you graduate from one of the better name schools.

You are no doubt right (I also want my children to do well in life like everyone else) -/ but the obsession with US News rankings is not healthy and is harming the younger generation - college attendance rates are declining and tuition rates are soaring … SMI and other experts link this in large part to huge costs incurred by colleges to drive up applications even among students with no chance of being admitted and drive down admission rates. At the same time, many classes are taught by poorly paid and overworked adjuncts. Way too much money spent in n marketing and way too little on teaching.

Anonymous wrote:Columbia should be ranked somewhere between 6-8

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"When are we going to finally reject the often preposterous, and immensely harmful, college arms race perpetuated by US News Best College ? "

Who's "we"? Go ahead, you first.

Obviously just like one person cannot mitigate the pandemic by themselves, one person cannot change the group think about obsessing over US News college rankings that is driving up tuition costs for all students and has misplaced focus on self perpetuating college reputations.

sorry, but I think any reasonable person does look at the rankings. The USNWR ranking definitely has its flaws but I want my kid to go somewhere in the top 30 or so. If they don't get in, it's not the end of the world obviously, but a lot more doors open when you graduate from one of the better name schools.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are the extension students at Harvard taking classes alongside Harvard College students? It’s doubtful many are since 70% of the courses are given online. I think it’s wonderful that Columbia allows 1/3 of its undergraduates to be non traditional students and in classrooms with those brilliant 18 year olds. USNWR rewards them for this as well, by not reporting the huge percentage of students entering without the stellar grades and scores.

Yes, they are. HES students can sit in for the same in-person classes as Harvard College students, as well as online classes. About 1,000 sit in for a ALB degree. Harvard does not report this data, neither does Penn, which awards bachelor degrees to nontraditional students through the School of Liberal and Professional Studies.

I’m sure that the vast majority are taking mostly online classes however. Be it as it may, Columbia brings it to a whole new level. 1/3 of its undergraduates in the SGS!

No, you're wrong. And they get the ALB degree that has been the focal point of complaint by quite a few Harvard students because HES students frequently present themselves as Harvard College grads. Columbia enrolls about 2,000 non-traditional students. So, you're saying that veterans (who compose a large percentage of SGS) who fought and bled for our country don't really deserve to get an Ivy League education? What's wrong with expanding access to an elite education? Aren't universities meant to increase social mobility? I am really at a loss of words.

You’re projecting too much. I never said anything about veterans. I’m saying that Columbia’s ranking is too high because USNWR rewards it for having way too high of a percentage of its transfer students in its undergraduate program. The vast majority of those students would never be admitted as freshman. The data provided by Columbia and distributed by USNWR give it an air of ultra eliteness. Is that really an accurate picture?

Columbia grad here. Not PP. I can vouch for the undergraduate college (CC) and engineering (SEAS), they are about as "elite" as any Ivy can be. But no, we don't have too high of a percentage of transfer students. At most 5% of the class, and it's very competitive, the acceptance rate is just as low as getting in as freshman. GS-wise, I am not really sure haha. It's in a league of its own, and the campus is quite segregated I would say, because GS people don't live on campus and tend to be much older, so they don't really interact with CC or SEAS students. It used to be exclusively for military folks, but I think now they've included community college transfers... They were never included in the rankings to begin with. I don't even think the school ever reports GS data. It's been doing so for the past 15-20 years, and it's not like GS is some hidden secret from USNWR editors.

Can we stop talking about Columbia. It's a great school, just not HYPSM.

Although I would say that Columbia's undergraduate school may not be as desirable or prestigious as HYPSM, the school overall is better than some of those 5 schools.

With strong humanities, social sciences, and STEM departments, this puts Columbia in the tier of Harvard, Stanford, Princeton, and Berkeley for the arts and sciences. For professional schools, while they are not as good as Harvard and Stanford's, is still the third best overall when including law, medicine, business, international affairs, public health, journalism, etc.

Yale's weakness in STEM, and especially in engineering, is an embarrassment to the school at this point, and their business and med school isn't elite. While Princeton is strong across the arts and sciences, their lack of professional grad schools make it a school that shouldn't be grouped with universities that are elite in virtually all areas. The same argument goes for MIT, which is basically a one-trick pony in STEM (aside from business and some social sciences).

In other words, only two of the HYPSM schools are truly better than Columbia, and they are Harvard and Stanford. Columbia is a better school overall than Yale, Princeton, and MIT. I'm not saying that Columbia is more prestigious than these three schools, but objectively better from an academic standpoint.

Anonymous wrote:Harvard extension…mostly online

Columbia SGS….mostly in classroom

Not the same!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"When are we going to finally reject the often preposterous, and immensely harmful, college arms race perpetuated by US News Best College ? "

Who's "we"? Go ahead, you first.

Obviously just like one person cannot mitigate the pandemic by themselves, one person cannot change the group think about obsessing over US News college rankings that is driving up tuition costs for all students and has misplaced focus on self perpetuating college reputations.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“I don’t see the issue. What is wrong with older students intermingling with the undergraduates. Older students bring life experience and different perspectives which can make class discussions more interesting and engaging.”

There is nothing wrong with it at all. But how much intermingling with transferred/non traditional students is acceptable when a rating system uses data from mostly accepted/matriculated 18 years olds to support its rankings. This is where I have a problem with a school like Columbia who has a huge percentage of their undergrads in the SGS taking classes alongside those from CC. They are basing their eliteness at USNWR off those 18 year olds and completely ignoring the 1/3 of the undergraduates who are not included in that data set. Is it so hard to understand why this might be a problem? The SGS is not an extension school like the one at Harvard. USNWR should clarify to its readers that this is not a typical practice at most elite schools. On the contrary, it rewards Columbia for not reporting that it’s overall student body is more than likely NOT the caliber of HYPSM by giving it an elevated ranking that it might otherwise not deserve.

Not a Columbia grad. But I think YOU are the problem. Not Columbia admitting a bunch of veterans or CC transfers to improve equitable access to a highly valued ivy league education. If Columbia is obligated to report that additional data, then Harvard might have to report its extension school data too. You don't provide any justification why the two are fundamentally different besides basing your argument on your own biases against Columbia. From an outsider's POV, they seem about the same to me.

SGS at Columbia is a special program for adults to received a BA as a separate degree from the College. They are two SEPARATE institutions at Columbia.

The real ivy league program with the 3.7% admissions this year ( and 5.1-6 % admissions in previous years) you are addressing is Columbia College.

SGS is a great program for adults and students who took time out from study either after high school or at som later time and decided to return to higher education. Their admissions has nothing to do with Columbia College, and they receive a separate BA which says SGS.

USNWR knows all about this. the only one whodoes not seem to appreciate this distinction is you. Maybe you ar the one in need of an opportunity to return to higher education as an adult. Why don't you apply to SGS? I m sure its admissions committee would be intrigued by your application and consider you either for admissions or make recommendation that you get some therapy to overcome whatever personal esteeem difficulties you are facing.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Columbia should be ranked somewhere between 6-8

+1
Dishonest to rank it any higher.

Anonymous wrote:"When are we going to finally reject the often preposterous, and immensely harmful, college arms race perpetuated by US News Best College ? "

Who's "we"? Go ahead, you first.

Anonymous wrote:Columbia should be ranked somewhere between 6-8