Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Israel is such a horror show. Its existence undermines the moral authority of the US.

Remember Israel has made it clear there is no two state or one state solution. So what are Israeli plans for the Palestinians?

Remember that the overwhelming majority of Palestinians do not want a two state solution.

And, of course, that Israel accepted the UN partition, while Palestinians did not.

And yes, the current Israeli government is also awful.

That was true only for a brief snapshot in time— or have you forgotten the existence of the West Bank settlements which are entirely contrary to the UN partition they “accept”?

Israel tried for 50 years to bring about a two state solution. Do you remember the Oslo Accords in the 1990s? Yitzhak Rabin even scarified his life for it.

PP that's a very relevant point to what is happening today. Can you just remind us who it was who killed Rabin??

The far right settler lunatics. But there was a time when mainstream Israel was willing to marginalize the fanatics and deal with Palestinians to create a viable two state solution, which would have included the expulsion of all settlers from the West Bank.

That time is gone. The Palestinian rejection of a two state solution and their embrace of violence - suicide bombings, blowing up buses, terrorism - destroyed Labour and any hope for reconciliation.

Still waiting to hear about the Hamas peace plan. Any day now.

Anonymous wrote:Israel is such a horror show. Its existence undermines the moral authority of the US.

Remember Israel has made it clear there is no two state or one state solution. So what are Israeli plans for the Palestinians?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Israel is such a horror show. Its existence undermines the moral authority of the US.

Remember Israel has made it clear there is no two state or one state solution. So what are Israeli plans for the Palestinians?

Remember that the overwhelming majority of Palestinians do not want a two state solution.

And, of course, that Israel accepted the UN partition, while Palestinians did not.

And yes, the current Israeli government is also awful.

That was true only for a brief snapshot in time— or have you forgotten the existence of the West Bank settlements which are entirely contrary to the UN partition they “accept”?

Israel tried for 50 years to bring about a two state solution. Do you remember the Oslo Accords in the 1990s? Yitzhak Rabin even scarified his life for it.

PP that's a very relevant point to what is happening today. Can you just remind us who it was who killed Rabin??

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Israel is such a horror show. Its existence undermines the moral authority of the US.

Remember Israel has made it clear there is no two state or one state solution. So what are Israeli plans for the Palestinians?

Remember that the overwhelming majority of Palestinians do not want a two state solution.

And, of course, that Israel accepted the UN partition, while Palestinians did not.

And yes, the current Israeli government is also awful.

That was true only for a brief snapshot in time— or have you forgotten the existence of the West Bank settlements which are entirely contrary to the UN partition they “accept”?

Israel tried for 50 years to bring about a two state solution. Do you remember the Oslo Accords in the 1990s? Yitzhak Rabin even scarified his life for it.

And as always Palestinians chose no, just as they did after World War II. Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and Jordan weren't independent countries either after the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire. But they've all been independent for more than 80 years now even though they are all very complicated, multi-ethnic states. They had the wisdom and foresight to work with everyone and make the necessary compromises to bring about independence.

It is only the Palestinians that choose war and violence over and over again. Decade after decade. And the entire Middle East - not just Israel - has had it with Palestinians and their years of stupid decisions. There is a reason every border in the Arab world is closed to Palestinians.

But please do enlighten us and inform everyone what the Hamas peace plan is. We're all listening. What does Sinwar and his followers and admirers here in the US have to say about bringing peace to the region?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Israel is such a horror show. Its existence undermines the moral authority of the US.

Remember Israel has made it clear there is no two state or one state solution. So what are Israeli plans for the Palestinians?

Remember that the overwhelming majority of Palestinians do not want a two state solution.

And, of course, that Israel accepted the UN partition, while Palestinians did not.

And yes, the current Israeli government is also awful.

That was true only for a brief snapshot in time— or have you forgotten the existence of the West Bank settlements which are entirely contrary to the UN partition they “accept”?

Israel tried for 50 years to bring about a two state solution. Do you remember the Oslo Accords in the 1990s? Yitzhak Rabin even scarified his life for it.


Pop quiz-- who said of vandalizing Rabin's car (shortly before his assassination) -- "we got to his car and we'll get to him too"

How dare you cite his death as support for the current government officials who were complicit in his murder!

PP that's a very relevant point to what is happening today. Can you just remind us who it was who killed Rabin??

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Israel is such a horror show. Its existence undermines the moral authority of the US.

Remember Israel has made it clear there is no two state or one state solution. So what are Israeli plans for the Palestinians?

Remember that the overwhelming majority of Palestinians do not want a two state solution.

And, of course, that Israel accepted the UN partition, while Palestinians did not.

And yes, the current Israeli government is also awful.

That was true only for a brief snapshot in time— or have you forgotten the existence of the West Bank settlements which are entirely contrary to the UN partition they “accept”?

Israel tried for 50 years to bring about a two state solution. Do you remember the Oslo Accords in the 1990s? Yitzhak Rabin even scarified his life for it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Israel is such a horror show. Its existence undermines the moral authority of the US.

Remember Israel has made it clear there is no two state or one state solution. So what are Israeli plans for the Palestinians?

Remember that the overwhelming majority of Palestinians do not want a two state solution.

And, of course, that Israel accepted the UN partition, while Palestinians did not.

And yes, the current Israeli government is also awful.

That was true only for a brief snapshot in time— or have you forgotten the existence of the West Bank settlements which are entirely contrary to the UN partition they “accept”?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Israel is such a horror show. Its existence undermines the moral authority of the US.

Remember Israel has made it clear there is no two state or one state solution. So what are Israeli plans for the Palestinians?

Remember that the overwhelming majority of Palestinians do not want a two state solution.

And, of course, that Israel accepted the UN partition, while Palestinians did not.

And yes, the current Israeli government is also awful.

That was true only for a brief snapshot in time— or have you forgotten the existence of the West Bank settlements which are entirely contrary to the UN partition they “accept”?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Israel is such a horror show. Its existence undermines the moral authority of the US.

Remember Israel has made it clear there is no two state or one state solution. So what are Israeli plans for the Palestinians?

Remember that the overwhelming majority of Palestinians do not want a two state solution.

And, of course, that Israel accepted the UN partition, while Palestinians did not.

And yes, the current Israeli government is also awful.

Anonymous wrote:Israel is such a horror show. Its existence undermines the moral authority of the US.

Remember Israel has made it clear there is no two state or one state solution. So what are Israeli plans for the Palestinians?

Anonymous wrote:Israel is such a horror show. Its existence undermines the moral authority of the US.

Remember Israel has made it clear there is no two state or one state solution. So what are Israeli plans for the Palestinians?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s just a political lie that Israel has to tell its public “We are fighting to get the hostages back”

“the Israeli government is dedicating to ending Hamas”

No they aren’t. Israel is lying to their public just like the US lied to ours about Iraq.

Why would they want Hamas gone at all?! They shut US suggestions down about Egypt or the Palestinian Authority taking over administering Gaza.

The point for Israel is to ethnically cleanse Gazans like some biblical genocides completely and for Israel to take it back

Then what?
Gaza is unlivable, no water, unexploded shells in the ruins, rotting corpses
Do Israelis have no conscience? Are there really people willing to move on top of a graveyard far away from where the jobs are just to be able to call themselves some kind of religious pioneers?

Israel had been out of Gaza for twenty years. Until Palestinians invaded and committed all those atrocities in a single morning.

Look, Israel spent decades trying for a two state solution. And Palestinians are clearly not interested in two states. They want Hamas and an Islamic theocracy. There's not a lot of space here for some kind of peaceful, common sense negotiation.

Palestinians made their choices. And it's sad and pathetic. It's like the ISIS wives stuck in refugee camps in Syria. I don't know. Maybe don't marry the terrorists. And that's what Palestinians are - the ISIS wives. Absolutely no one wants them, so they are stuck because they made some really stupid choices.

Blockade. Land, sea, air. No matter how many times uninformed voices like yours whisper down the lane with tired, blatantly dishonest propaganda about Israel seeking a two-state solution, the fact is that Zionists have only ever wanted ALL of the land.

Just a heads up. Y'all need to lose the Zionist terminology. 98 percent of Americans believe Israel has a right to exist. And as for those 2 percent? It's usually Charlottesville tiki torch marchers. You should all wear a hood or something so you can find each other. Or maybe a special arm band.

Oh, c’mon now - nobody believes that THAT is what Zionism ideology is actually about. It’s actually about shoving the myth of Jewish supremacy down the throat of everyone in its path (“But we’re the chosen people!”), it’s about relentlessly provoking conflict with Israel’s neighbors for the purpose of expanding the dimensions of the state, and it’s especially about exploiting useful idiots like you to slander anyone who dares to call it like it is.

There ain’t nobody on this planet better suited to wear a white hooded robe than modern day Zionists. Acts of blatant, violent racism and brutal subjugation of others “beneath” them might as well be scenes portrayed on the shekel. As for the tiki torches - ah, makes sense - is that part of the light into nations nonsense we keep hearing about?

Actually, Zionists believe Israel has a right to exist. That's Zionism.

If you actually believe that, I’m frightened to ask you to provide a definition of what the word “exist” means to you.

Exist. Be recognized as a legitimate sovereign state. Beyond that, they have to navigate complex international relations like every other state. Existence means not entertaining wiping Israel from the map or claiming it's an illegitimate occupier.

Existence doesn't define its borders. Personally, I think they need to remove settlements from the West Bank and I'm in favor of a two state solution. Existence isn't about superiority. The "chosen-ness" of the Jewish people is about a particular relationship with God, not one that is necessarily better, just one that is ours.

Anyway, I'm not sure what you expected "existence" to mean?

When pushed to make a sober statement, the one you provided is 100% welcome by me and the kind of sentiment that I could wholeheartedly support.

But to expose the rot, can you tell us how that statement reflects the views of Netanyahu and even the voters whose votes resulted in this Likud-led government? I mean, surely you don't expect anyone to believe that your views - top to bottom - reflect his, right?

I don't like Bibi (I did 15 years ago, but not now). There were multiple attempts at elections that failed to achieve an actual government in Israel before Bibi ended up back in power, and there have been regular protests against him since his election. I see all that and think that, while it's awful that he ended up in power again and has the power to shape Israeli policy, it's hardly because Israelis really wanted him to lead again. Some do, yes, but he's not super popular, even during wartime when nationalism would usually give leaders a boost.

OK, well, I can’t take issue with anything you’ve said in these last two posts. On the flip side, I hope you recognize that not every individual critical of Israel’s policies and actions blames every Israeli, much less every Jewish person, for the Israeli government’s bad deeds.

I'm not one of those people who thinks that all criticism of Israel is automatically antisemitism, though I do think it often blurs very quickly/easily in that direction. There is plenty to debate about Israeli politics/policy. The difference, as I see it, is whether or not that debate/critique comes from a place of recognizing the legitimacy of Israel in the first place. When "Zionist" is used as a slur, it's hard for me to see the person as coming to the conversation openly.

Disagree. It's my position that the outdated idea that Zionism is merely "a belief that the State of Israel should exist" is NOT nearly descriptive enough of what most Zionists believe today. If that's the depth of YOUR support for the State of Israel, and you are otherwise disgusted with the policies and actions of the State of Israel (alongside your disgust for Hamas, etc.), that would be acceptable to most people.

Unfortunately, Zionism in 2024 needs to be assessed through a revised lens: as a descriptor for its adherents today, who are far more extremist, hateful, narcissistic, entitled and who unconditionally support a state that does more to jeopardize the idea of world peace than any other country across the globe. They very blatantly value Jewish life above the lives of others, and to them, having the State of Israel kill over 40x (already!) the number of people in Gaza as were killed in Israel on 10/7 is perfectly acceptable. These Zionist shit all over their own biblical justice of "an eye for an eye" and instead demand that the world give them "as many eyes for an eye, until WE decide that enough vengeance has been served". It's depraved, and the history (audio? neural?) books will eventually tell the true story of Israel, the most evil nation in modern times.

Your claim is 40,000 Gazans were killed?

Do you have a factual source for that? (and no, Hamas - a designated terrorist organization - is NOT a factual source.)

Moreover: how many of the alleged 40,000 were Hamas terrorists who died with guns or bombs in their hands? (Hamas refuses to say).

For all we know, every one of the alleged 40,000 was a fighter.

Say it with a straight face now.

You are opening a can of worms that serves no purpose other than to create further division. The HHSA equivalent in Israel relies on those exact same numbers published by CIVILIAN employees in Gaza.

There is no alternative way to deliver public health services. You act as if they are uneducated militants when the literacy rate in their concentration camp of an existence dwarfs the literacy rate in Israel itself.

You failed to answer my question at all.

OK. So all 40,000 deaths were terrorist fighters. Got it.

Thanks for the confirmation.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s just a political lie that Israel has to tell its public “We are fighting to get the hostages back”

“the Israeli government is dedicating to ending Hamas”

No they aren’t. Israel is lying to their public just like the US lied to ours about Iraq.

Why would they want Hamas gone at all?! They shut US suggestions down about Egypt or the Palestinian Authority taking over administering Gaza.

The point for Israel is to ethnically cleanse Gazans like some biblical genocides completely and for Israel to take it back

Then what?
Gaza is unlivable, no water, unexploded shells in the ruins, rotting corpses
Do Israelis have no conscience? Are there really people willing to move on top of a graveyard far away from where the jobs are just to be able to call themselves some kind of religious pioneers?

Israel had been out of Gaza for twenty years. Until Palestinians invaded and committed all those atrocities in a single morning.

Look, Israel spent decades trying for a two state solution. And Palestinians are clearly not interested in two states. They want Hamas and an Islamic theocracy. There's not a lot of space here for some kind of peaceful, common sense negotiation.

Palestinians made their choices. And it's sad and pathetic. It's like the ISIS wives stuck in refugee camps in Syria. I don't know. Maybe don't marry the terrorists. And that's what Palestinians are - the ISIS wives. Absolutely no one wants them, so they are stuck because they made some really stupid choices.

Blockade. Land, sea, air. No matter how many times uninformed voices like yours whisper down the lane with tired, blatantly dishonest propaganda about Israel seeking a two-state solution, the fact is that Zionists have only ever wanted ALL of the land.

Just a heads up. Y'all need to lose the Zionist terminology. 98 percent of Americans believe Israel has a right to exist. And as for those 2 percent? It's usually Charlottesville tiki torch marchers. You should all wear a hood or something so you can find each other. Or maybe a special arm band.

Oh, c’mon now - nobody believes that THAT is what Zionism ideology is actually about. It’s actually about shoving the myth of Jewish supremacy down the throat of everyone in its path (“But we’re the chosen people!”), it’s about relentlessly provoking conflict with Israel’s neighbors for the purpose of expanding the dimensions of the state, and it’s especially about exploiting useful idiots like you to slander anyone who dares to call it like it is.

There ain’t nobody on this planet better suited to wear a white hooded robe than modern day Zionists. Acts of blatant, violent racism and brutal subjugation of others “beneath” them might as well be scenes portrayed on the shekel. As for the tiki torches - ah, makes sense - is that part of the light into nations nonsense we keep hearing about?

Actually, Zionists believe Israel has a right to exist. That's Zionism.

If you actually believe that, I’m frightened to ask you to provide a definition of what the word “exist” means to you.

Exist. Be recognized as a legitimate sovereign state. Beyond that, they have to navigate complex international relations like every other state. Existence means not entertaining wiping Israel from the map or claiming it's an illegitimate occupier.

Existence doesn't define its borders. Personally, I think they need to remove settlements from the West Bank and I'm in favor of a two state solution. Existence isn't about superiority. The "chosen-ness" of the Jewish people is about a particular relationship with God, not one that is necessarily better, just one that is ours.

Anyway, I'm not sure what you expected "existence" to mean?

When pushed to make a sober statement, the one you provided is 100% welcome by me and the kind of sentiment that I could wholeheartedly support.

But to expose the rot, can you tell us how that statement reflects the views of Netanyahu and even the voters whose votes resulted in this Likud-led government? I mean, surely you don't expect anyone to believe that your views - top to bottom - reflect his, right?

I don't like Bibi (I did 15 years ago, but not now). There were multiple attempts at elections that failed to achieve an actual government in Israel before Bibi ended up back in power, and there have been regular protests against him since his election. I see all that and think that, while it's awful that he ended up in power again and has the power to shape Israeli policy, it's hardly because Israelis really wanted him to lead again. Some do, yes, but he's not super popular, even during wartime when nationalism would usually give leaders a boost.

OK, well, I can’t take issue with anything you’ve said in these last two posts. On the flip side, I hope you recognize that not every individual critical of Israel’s policies and actions blames every Israeli, much less every Jewish person, for the Israeli government’s bad deeds.

I'm not one of those people who thinks that all criticism of Israel is automatically antisemitism, though I do think it often blurs very quickly/easily in that direction. There is plenty to debate about Israeli politics/policy. The difference, as I see it, is whether or not that debate/critique comes from a place of recognizing the legitimacy of Israel in the first place. When "Zionist" is used as a slur, it's hard for me to see the person as coming to the conversation openly.

Disagree. It's my position that the outdated idea that Zionism is merely "a belief that the State of Israel should exist" is NOT nearly descriptive enough of what most Zionists believe today. If that's the depth of YOUR support for the State of Israel, and you are otherwise disgusted with the policies and actions of the State of Israel (alongside your disgust for Hamas, etc.), that would be acceptable to most people.

Unfortunately, Zionism in 2024 needs to be assessed through a revised lens: as a descriptor for its adherents today, who are far more extremist, hateful, narcissistic, entitled and who unconditionally support a state that does more to jeopardize the idea of world peace than any other country across the globe. They very blatantly value Jewish life above the lives of others, and to them, having the State of Israel kill over 40x (already!) the number of people in Gaza as were killed in Israel on 10/7 is perfectly acceptable. These Zionist shit all over their own biblical justice of "an eye for an eye" and instead demand that the world give them "as many eyes for an eye, until WE decide that enough vengeance has been served". It's depraved, and the history (audio? neural?) books will eventually tell the true story of Israel, the most evil nation in modern times.

Your claim is 40,000 Gazans were killed?

Do you have a factual source for that? (and no, Hamas - a designated terrorist organization - is NOT a factual source.)

Moreover: how many of the alleged 40,000 were Hamas terrorists who died with guns or bombs in their hands? (Hamas refuses to say).

For all we know, every one of the alleged 40,000 was a fighter.

Say it with a straight face now.

You are opening a can of worms that serves no purpose other than to create further division. The HHSA equivalent in Israel relies on those exact same numbers published by CIVILIAN employees in Gaza.

There is no alternative way to deliver public health services. You act as if they are uneducated militants when the literacy rate in their concentration camp of an existence dwarfs the literacy rate in Israel itself.

You failed to answer my question at all.

OK. So all 40,000 deaths were terrorist fighters. Got it.

Thanks for the confirmation.