Anonymous wrote:Our charter doesn't have a cafeteria. The students eat at their desks. What kind of school doesn't have a cafeteria? The way the city treats kids in charters is shameful. We don't go to our boundary school because it has a major problem with violence.

Well, let's see. GDS high school doesn't have a cafeteria. GDS's MS and ES didn't have a cafeteria until they moved into a new building.

When the old GDS lower school became MacArthur HS, the first thing they added was a cafeteria

Walls, meanwhile, has the facility to serve DCPS food but they don't really have a lunch room to eat it in.

Some DCPS ESs, like Mann, have a single multipurpose room that works as cafeteria, gym, and auditorium

So there you go, private schools and public schools, also lacking cafeterias.

I don't begrudge the existence of charter schools, but this "woe is us" schtick is irritating.

DC spends almost $10,000 more per child on those in DCPS vs. charters. You can see the breakdown in spending here: https://dcchhttps://dccharters.org/blog/testimony-fy27-boh-pcsb-dcpsarters.org/blog/testimony-fy27-boh-pcsb-dcps

Our charter doesn't have a cafeteria. The students eat at their desks. What kind of school doesn't have a cafeteria? The way the city treats kids in charters is shameful. We don't go to our boundary school because it has a major problem with violence.

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Anonymous wrote:The city will spend astronomical amounts renovating schools, but only if they're DCPS. DC spent $180 million redoing Duke Ellington, which only has 600 or so students. Works out to about $300,000 per student.

Banneker got a $130 million renovation (700 students)

There's a long list of DCPS high schools that have gotten $100 million+ renovations

How long exactly is that long list?

What portion of DCPS schools is it?

The city has spent $3 billion and counting remodeling public schools (but not charters!)...

Some of the renovations are really over the top. Apparently money is no object for some schools.

It's kinda hilarious how the city treats charter school kids like red headed stepchildren. You would not think a government would or could go so far out of its way to be shitty to a group of children.

DC is obsessed with the “right” people using city services. It IS racial. It is a low level counter insurgency waged against “transplants.” To turn a phrase, you face twice as much scrutiny and be twice as good.

I think the city still resents the charter school system, even though half the kids in the city are now it in, and the way it tries to get back at it is by starving the schools of money. The difference between DCPS facilities and charter facilities is mind blowing. I would not think it is legal to treat an entire class of children like third class citizens.

I realize this thread is talking about facilities funding, but I think the other big part of the conversation is that for years, charters were expanding/opening with seemingly little thought as to how many schools would be in a certain neighborhood, how many seats would be open, etc. The birthrate has stopped increasing, we have too many schools/seats, and that is hard to un-do. DCPS closed a lot of their buildings 20ish+ years ago, and they can't close many more bc there needs to be guaranteed/neighborhood/by-right options for all students within a certain distance from their home. Not to mention the budget of the city overall has been hit hard recently, so you end up with less money all around. Many people argue that charter schools opened to respond to a need/demand, which is true -but the lack of big picture planning resulted in a large number of independent charter schools opening, many of them serving the same communities with similar models.
All that to say, it is a lot more nuanced and complex than just 'give us more money'.

Seems a little rich to blame charters when the city routinely spends $100 million to renovate DCPS schools that are already severely under-enrolled. Anacostia High School has 250 students in total.

People here are obsessed with poor Black kids getting a school building over a decade ago. It's weird and unhealthy.

Here's a list of major school renovations in Washington D.C.:

Duke Ellington -- $180 million
Coolidge -- $160 million
Jackson-Reid -- $130 million
Dunbar -- $125 million
Roosevelt -- $125 million
Woodson -- $100 million
Deal -- $100 million
Cardozo -- $90 million
Deal -- $90 million
Ballou -- $90 million
Jefferson -- $90 million
Truesdell -- $80 million
Janney -- $70 million
Anacostia -- $60 million

Notice anything weird about which schools the city decides get the fancy renovations?

I think this is the city's strategy for preventing parents from abandoning DCPS for charters.

Complaining on here will get you NOTHING.
Charters get plenty, if they want more money ask their billionaire donors.

I really don't know where this "Charters get $2000 less per kid" figure came from originally or who calculated it. But I'm skeptical.

If it's $2K per kid and 50,000 charter kids, a difference of $100 million is alleged. But:

* We've already established that at least some of the Early Stages funding (at least the part that's for identifying children with special needs before they are attending any DCPS or charter school) shouldn't count because charters don't do that work (but they benefit from receiving kids who have already been served and have IEPs in place!). But I'm not sure how much that cost is. About $11 million per year is the Early Stages line in the budget. https://cfo.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/ocfo/publication/attachments/ga0_dcps_chapter_2027a_0.pdf page D-54.

* Since DCPS has a net gain of students over each year and charters a net loss, how much extra funding should DCPS get for that? The UPSFF foundation rate is $15.5K per kid, but can be over $50K for the highest tier of special needs. So call it $20K on average. Times DCPS' net gain of 728 kids last year, that's $14 million. So we're up to $25 million already.

* Take out for public use of DCPS facilities, we've talked about pools but there are probably other types of usage. Do schools get compensated for this? How are the lifeguards paid, and the water bill? I really don't know how it works.

* Charters having below-market rent from DCPS and city builidings. It's an interesting question and I really don't know if this is happening and how to value it.

* OSSE credit enhancements: https://osse.dc.gov/service/facilities-financing-dc-public-charter-schools Basically OSSE runs a revolving fund that does loans and credit enhancements to help charters borrow at favorable rates. What is the economic value of this subsidy, and what does it cost the city to provide in terms of staffing? I really don't know.

Any other ideas? I'm open to hearing them, if there's actual knowledge backing them up.

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Anonymous wrote:The city will spend astronomical amounts renovating schools, but only if they're DCPS. DC spent $180 million redoing Duke Ellington, which only has 600 or so students. Works out to about $300,000 per student.

Banneker got a $130 million renovation (700 students)

There's a long list of DCPS high schools that have gotten $100 million+ renovations

How long exactly is that long list?

What portion of DCPS schools is it?

The city has spent $3 billion and counting remodeling public schools (but not charters!)...

Some of the renovations are really over the top. Apparently money is no object for some schools.

It's kinda hilarious how the city treats charter school kids like red headed stepchildren. You would not think a government would or could go so far out of its way to be shitty to a group of children.

DC is obsessed with the “right” people using city services. It IS racial. It is a low level counter insurgency waged against “transplants.” To turn a phrase, you face twice as much scrutiny and be twice as good.

I think the city still resents the charter school system, even though half the kids in the city are now it in, and the way it tries to get back at it is by starving the schools of money. The difference between DCPS facilities and charter facilities is mind blowing. I would not think it is legal to treat an entire class of children like third class citizens.

I realize this thread is talking about facilities funding, but I think the other big part of the conversation is that for years, charters were expanding/opening with seemingly little thought as to how many schools would be in a certain neighborhood, how many seats would be open, etc. The birthrate has stopped increasing, we have too many schools/seats, and that is hard to un-do. DCPS closed a lot of their buildings 20ish+ years ago, and they can't close many more bc there needs to be guaranteed/neighborhood/by-right options for all students within a certain distance from their home. Not to mention the budget of the city overall has been hit hard recently, so you end up with less money all around. Many people argue that charter schools opened to respond to a need/demand, which is true -but the lack of big picture planning resulted in a large number of independent charter schools opening, many of them serving the same communities with similar models.
All that to say, it is a lot more nuanced and complex than just 'give us more money'.

Seems a little rich to blame charters when the city routinely spends $100 million to renovate DCPS schools that are already severely under-enrolled. Anacostia High School has 250 students in total.

People here are obsessed with poor Black kids getting a school building over a decade ago. It's weird and unhealthy.

Here's a list of major school renovations in Washington D.C.:

Duke Ellington -- $180 million
Coolidge -- $160 million
Jackson-Reid -- $130 million
Dunbar -- $125 million
Roosevelt -- $125 million
Woodson -- $100 million
Deal -- $100 million
Cardozo -- $90 million
Deal -- $90 million
Ballou -- $90 million
Jefferson -- $90 million
Truesdell -- $80 million
Janney -- $70 million
Anacostia -- $60 million

Notice anything weird about which schools the city decides get the fancy renovations?

Don't forget:

Oyster Adams -- $79 million
Dorothy Height -- $63 million
JO Wilson -- $91 million
MLK -- $65 million
Burrville -- $85 million
Garfield -- $60.5 million
Burroughs -- $75 million

All DCPS. No charters.

Again, DCPS and DGS do not renovate charters. That's not how the system is set up. Part of the point of being a charter school is getting to manage your own renovations and not dealing with DCPS and DGS. You seem not to understand this. It's not some big conspiracy. It's how it's supposed to work.

Nobody cares which pocket the money comes from. The point is that the city is starving children in charters of resources while simultaneously building palaces for kids who happen to go to DCPS. Everyone should be treated equally.

Eh I like charters and think they provide an important outlet but DCPS has to do so much more than charters by law, of course they get more resources.

Add this to the long list of myths DCPS tells itself. The only reason charters exist is because people didn't think DCPS was doing its job.

If your charter had to take a pro rata share of kids who newly moved to the district after the start of the school year, in all grades, and a pro rata share of kids expelled from other schools, how much money do you think would be fair to support this?

Bump. Seriously, how much is this worth? Dollar amounts please.

It's a rounding error.

No it isn't. Are you just saying whatever pops into your head without doing any research? OSSE has data on this: https://osse.dc.gov/node/1304951 scroll down to Mobility Report.

In the school year before this one, DCPS had a net change in enrollment from October 7 to May 15 of +728. That's not a rounding error, it's an entire school worth of kids. Charters had a net change of -1752. Those are the sum of the K-12 tab and the Pre-K tab on the spreadsheets. So DCPS gets additional funding to account for this, because it happens consistently.

Because enrollment goes up by 1 percent, DCPS gets $100 million renovations of all its schools, and charters get nothing?

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Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand the argument about kids joining a school mid year. Funding is per pupil and follows the student. Each pupil brings a base rate of about $15,000.

Yes, it's clear that you don't understand the argument. New kids don't bring funding if they join after count day.

It's not just that they have to take some kids, it's that DCPS has to stand ready to absorb an unknown number of kids. DCPS can't say they only take new kids in certain grades or at certain times. No matter how disruptive to the school model, no matter how far behind, no matter of special needs, DCPS has to take them. If a charter suddenly closes, DCPS must stand ready to take kids at their IB schools on zero notice. Would charters agree to take a portion of that load? How much funding would charters want in exchange for agreeing to that obligation? I don't mean taking a few kids at their discretion, I mean an advance agreement to take unknown numbers in unknown grades.

Fortunately, few kids fall into this category so it doesn't make much difference either way.

DCPS was +728 kids at the end of last school year. It's not few. And the short notice makes it extra difficult. Again, would charters agree to this lack of control over their enrollment without compensation? I doubt it.

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Anonymous wrote:The city will spend astronomical amounts renovating schools, but only if they're DCPS. DC spent $180 million redoing Duke Ellington, which only has 600 or so students. Works out to about $300,000 per student.

Banneker got a $130 million renovation (700 students)

There's a long list of DCPS high schools that have gotten $100 million+ renovations

How long exactly is that long list?

What portion of DCPS schools is it?

The city has spent $3 billion and counting remodeling public schools (but not charters!)...

Some of the renovations are really over the top. Apparently money is no object for some schools.

It's kinda hilarious how the city treats charter school kids like red headed stepchildren. You would not think a government would or could go so far out of its way to be shitty to a group of children.

DC is obsessed with the “right” people using city services. It IS racial. It is a low level counter insurgency waged against “transplants.” To turn a phrase, you face twice as much scrutiny and be twice as good.

I think the city still resents the charter school system, even though half the kids in the city are now it in, and the way it tries to get back at it is by starving the schools of money. The difference between DCPS facilities and charter facilities is mind blowing. I would not think it is legal to treat an entire class of children like third class citizens.

I realize this thread is talking about facilities funding, but I think the other big part of the conversation is that for years, charters were expanding/opening with seemingly little thought as to how many schools would be in a certain neighborhood, how many seats would be open, etc. The birthrate has stopped increasing, we have too many schools/seats, and that is hard to un-do. DCPS closed a lot of their buildings 20ish+ years ago, and they can't close many more bc there needs to be guaranteed/neighborhood/by-right options for all students within a certain distance from their home. Not to mention the budget of the city overall has been hit hard recently, so you end up with less money all around. Many people argue that charter schools opened to respond to a need/demand, which is true -but the lack of big picture planning resulted in a large number of independent charter schools opening, many of them serving the same communities with similar models.
All that to say, it is a lot more nuanced and complex than just 'give us more money'.

Seems a little rich to blame charters when the city routinely spends $100 million to renovate DCPS schools that are already severely under-enrolled. Anacostia High School has 250 students in total.

People here are obsessed with poor Black kids getting a school building over a decade ago. It's weird and unhealthy.

Here's a list of major school renovations in Washington D.C.:

Duke Ellington -- $180 million
Coolidge -- $160 million
Jackson-Reid -- $130 million
Dunbar -- $125 million
Roosevelt -- $125 million
Woodson -- $100 million
Deal -- $100 million
Cardozo -- $90 million
Deal -- $90 million
Ballou -- $90 million
Jefferson -- $90 million
Truesdell -- $80 million
Janney -- $70 million
Anacostia -- $60 million

Notice anything weird about which schools the city decides get the fancy renovations?

Don't forget:

Oyster Adams -- $79 million
Dorothy Height -- $63 million
JO Wilson -- $91 million
MLK -- $65 million
Burrville -- $85 million
Garfield -- $60.5 million
Burroughs -- $75 million

All DCPS. No charters.

Again, DCPS and DGS do not renovate charters. That's not how the system is set up. Part of the point of being a charter school is getting to manage your own renovations and not dealing with DCPS and DGS. You seem not to understand this. It's not some big conspiracy. It's how it's supposed to work.

Nobody cares which pocket the money comes from. The point is that the city is starving children in charters of resources while simultaneously building palaces for kids who happen to go to DCPS. Everyone should be treated equally.

Eh I like charters and think they provide an important outlet but DCPS has to do so much more than charters by law, of course they get more resources.

Add this to the long list of myths DCPS tells itself. The only reason charters exist is because people didn't think DCPS was doing its job.

If your charter had to take a pro rata share of kids who newly moved to the district after the start of the school year, in all grades, and a pro rata share of kids expelled from other schools, how much money do you think would be fair to support this?

Bump. Seriously, how much is this worth? Dollar amounts please.

It's a rounding error.

No it isn't. Are you just saying whatever pops into your head without doing any research? OSSE has data on this: https://osse.dc.gov/node/1304951 scroll down to Mobility Report.

In the school year before this one, DCPS had a net change in enrollment from October 7 to May 15 of +728. That's not a rounding error, it's an entire school worth of kids. Charters had a net change of -1752. Those are the sum of the K-12 tab and the Pre-K tab on the spreadsheets. So DCPS gets additional funding to account for this, because it happens consistently.

But they are spending less. Because they are given less to spend.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://forresterconstruction.com/portfolio/meridian-public-charter-school/

https://www.shinberglevinas.com/projects/education-portfolio/dc-prep-benning

https://jairlynch.com/project/dcp-wilkinson/

https://mongecapital.com/transactions/dc-prep/

https://www.mcnbuild.com/project/dc-scholars-public-charter-school/

https://www.gilbaneco.com/projects/dc-bilingual-public-charter-school/

https://engeniumgroup.com/project/two-rivers-public-charter-school-middle-school-addition/

https://doyleconco.com/projects/idea-public-charter-school

I think you've inadvertently proved the point. These projects are all quite modest. We're comparing DC Bilingual spending $15 million on a project to DCPS spending almost ten times as much on a school?

Not really. These projects vary in size and DCPS does projects too. Each is unique and it's hard to total them up in a meaningful way.

Also, if DCPS is stupidly doing wasteful, excessive renovations and the point of the charter sector is to make better decisions, then wouldn't we expect charters to spend less? "DCPS is making bad renovation choices so we should too" isn't much of an argument.

This. Lead the way on sanity, charter schools!

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Anonymous wrote:The city will spend astronomical amounts renovating schools, but only if they're DCPS. DC spent $180 million redoing Duke Ellington, which only has 600 or so students. Works out to about $300,000 per student.

Banneker got a $130 million renovation (700 students)

There's a long list of DCPS high schools that have gotten $100 million+ renovations

How long exactly is that long list?

What portion of DCPS schools is it?

The city has spent $3 billion and counting remodeling public schools (but not charters!)...

Some of the renovations are really over the top. Apparently money is no object for some schools.

It's kinda hilarious how the city treats charter school kids like red headed stepchildren. You would not think a government would or could go so far out of its way to be shitty to a group of children.

DC is obsessed with the “right” people using city services. It IS racial. It is a low level counter insurgency waged against “transplants.” To turn a phrase, you face twice as much scrutiny and be twice as good.

I think the city still resents the charter school system, even though half the kids in the city are now it in, and the way it tries to get back at it is by starving the schools of money. The difference between DCPS facilities and charter facilities is mind blowing. I would not think it is legal to treat an entire class of children like third class citizens.

I realize this thread is talking about facilities funding, but I think the other big part of the conversation is that for years, charters were expanding/opening with seemingly little thought as to how many schools would be in a certain neighborhood, how many seats would be open, etc. The birthrate has stopped increasing, we have too many schools/seats, and that is hard to un-do. DCPS closed a lot of their buildings 20ish+ years ago, and they can't close many more bc there needs to be guaranteed/neighborhood/by-right options for all students within a certain distance from their home. Not to mention the budget of the city overall has been hit hard recently, so you end up with less money all around. Many people argue that charter schools opened to respond to a need/demand, which is true -but the lack of big picture planning resulted in a large number of independent charter schools opening, many of them serving the same communities with similar models.
All that to say, it is a lot more nuanced and complex than just 'give us more money'.

Seems a little rich to blame charters when the city routinely spends $100 million to renovate DCPS schools that are already severely under-enrolled. Anacostia High School has 250 students in total.

People here are obsessed with poor Black kids getting a school building over a decade ago. It's weird and unhealthy.

Here's a list of major school renovations in Washington D.C.:

Duke Ellington -- $180 million
Coolidge -- $160 million
Jackson-Reid -- $130 million
Dunbar -- $125 million
Roosevelt -- $125 million
Woodson -- $100 million
Deal -- $100 million
Cardozo -- $90 million
Deal -- $90 million
Ballou -- $90 million
Jefferson -- $90 million
Truesdell -- $80 million
Janney -- $70 million
Anacostia -- $60 million

Notice anything weird about which schools the city decides get the fancy renovations?

Don't forget:

Oyster Adams -- $79 million
Dorothy Height -- $63 million
JO Wilson -- $91 million
MLK -- $65 million
Burrville -- $85 million
Garfield -- $60.5 million
Burroughs -- $75 million

All DCPS. No charters.

Again, DCPS and DGS do not renovate charters. That's not how the system is set up. Part of the point of being a charter school is getting to manage your own renovations and not dealing with DCPS and DGS. You seem not to understand this. It's not some big conspiracy. It's how it's supposed to work.

Nobody cares which pocket the money comes from. The point is that the city is starving children in charters of resources while simultaneously building palaces for kids who happen to go to DCPS. Everyone should be treated equally.

You seem to think charters never renovate, though. And that is simply not true. There's no centralized list, but they do renovate. People provided you a short list already.

The point of facilities funding is charters can decide whether to save up for renovations and how much to spend. If they choose not to, in favor of spending on other things, that's up to them. And if they stupidly overspent on a building and can't afford to maintain it, too bad. Choices have consequences.

Well, this is totally wrong. The reason one system has really nice facilities and the other has crappy facilities is because one system is given a lot of money by the city and the other is not. It's not complicated.

m

You keep repeating this misinformation.

How many DCPS have you been in?

Why don't you make a list of the really nice DCPS schools, the adequate DCPS schools, and the overcrowded and/or very worn DCPS schools?

I guarantee you that the "really nice" category would be dwarfed by the others.

The city plans to renovate every single public school. It's already spent $3.6 billion redoing more than 150 schools. It plans to spend at least $2 billion on school makeovers, so if your school hasn't gotten one yet, just wait. The question is why are they only doing this for DCPS, when only half the kids in this city go to DCPS.

The answer is that administrations come and go and the current one is BIG on building renovations (I mean look at the projects across the district!) and hates charter schools. That’s why.

It's political. They hate charters and they take it on the kids who attend them, by attempting to kneecap their educations.

The anti-charter vibe is very toxic. you should see the PTO/PTA leadership group WhatsApp on this topic today.

To be fair, the anti-DCPS vibe can also very toxic. The way our system is set up pits a bunch of type A DC parents against each other. Just read through the comments on half of these threads. Parents are constantly tearing DCPS apart and listing all of the reasons and generalizations and assumptions that make people have their feelings about DCPS. Not saying two wrongs make a right, but let’s not pretend charter parents are a uniform example of positivity either.

The city is actively trying to undermine the education of children in charter schools. You can see why that would make people mad.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t understand the argument about kids joining a school mid year. Funding is per pupil and follows the student. Each pupil brings a base rate of about $15,000.

Yes, it's clear that you don't understand the argument. New kids don't bring funding if they join after count day.

It's not just that they have to take some kids, it's that DCPS has to stand ready to absorb an unknown number of kids. DCPS can't say they only take new kids in certain grades or at certain times. No matter how disruptive to the school model, no matter how far behind, no matter of special needs, DCPS has to take them. If a charter suddenly closes, DCPS must stand ready to take kids at their IB schools on zero notice. Would charters agree to take a portion of that load? How much funding would charters want in exchange for agreeing to that obligation? I don't mean taking a few kids at their discretion, I mean an advance agreement to take unknown numbers in unknown grades.

Fortunately, few kids fall into this category so it doesn't make much difference either way.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://forresterconstruction.com/portfolio/meridian-public-charter-school/

https://www.shinberglevinas.com/projects/education-portfolio/dc-prep-benning

https://jairlynch.com/project/dcp-wilkinson/

https://mongecapital.com/transactions/dc-prep/

https://www.mcnbuild.com/project/dc-scholars-public-charter-school/

https://www.gilbaneco.com/projects/dc-bilingual-public-charter-school/

https://engeniumgroup.com/project/two-rivers-public-charter-school-middle-school-addition/

https://doyleconco.com/projects/idea-public-charter-school

I think you've inadvertently proved the point. These projects are all quite modest. We're comparing DC Bilingual spending $15 million on a project to DCPS spending almost ten times as much on a school?

Right. So you want to solve the data problem by comparing the renovation of a 600 student elementary school to an 1900 student high school? And don't bother considering the state of the respective buildings pre-renovation.

There's 600 kids at DCB, and they spent $15M. At Dorothy Height, there's 400 kids and they spend $80M. At JO Wilson, there's 450 kids and they spend $90M. At Burrville, there's 250 kids and they spend $85M.

It's not a meaningful comparison without looking at what the schools actually did in the renovation and how bad their existing problems were.

Well, one of these school systems is drowning in money and the other is turning frugality into an art form, so I think I know which actually needs new facilities and which would just think it would be cool to have.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://forresterconstruction.com/portfolio/meridian-public-charter-school/

https://www.shinberglevinas.com/projects/education-portfolio/dc-prep-benning

https://jairlynch.com/project/dcp-wilkinson/

https://mongecapital.com/transactions/dc-prep/

https://www.mcnbuild.com/project/dc-scholars-public-charter-school/

https://www.gilbaneco.com/projects/dc-bilingual-public-charter-school/

https://engeniumgroup.com/project/two-rivers-public-charter-school-middle-school-addition/

https://doyleconco.com/projects/idea-public-charter-school

I think you've inadvertently proved the point. These projects are all quite modest. We're comparing DC Bilingual spending $15 million on a project to DCPS spending almost ten times as much on a school?

Right. So you want to solve the data problem by comparing the renovation of a 600 student elementary school to an 1900 student high school? And don't bother considering the state of the respective buildings pre-renovation.

There's 600 kids at DCB, and they spent $15M. At Dorothy Height, there's 400 kids and they spend $80M. At JO Wilson, there's 450 kids and they spend $90M. At Burrville, there's 250 kids and they spend $85M.

It's not a meaningful comparison without looking at what the schools actually did in the renovation and how bad their existing problems were.