Anonymous
02/26/2023 22:50
Subject: What is a "donut hole family"?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I live in a neighborhood full of true donut hole families. I would say household incomes are 100k - 150k.
Kids in my neighborhood are driving themselves to GMU.
Very few are going OOS, and those that are are going to schools that are highly undesirable here on DCUM.
Yeah I guess this is us. Except we live in DC so we have no in-state option. Yay.
If that is your income range and you live in DC then You need to become acquainted with the net price calculators at the private schools that appeal to your kids. You will actually demonstrate need. DC TAG helps. If you have navigated DCPS or a charter school successfully then you can navigate this process.
Anonymous
02/26/2023 18:22
Subject: What is a "donut hole family"?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I live in a neighborhood full of true donut hole families. I would say household incomes are 100k - 150k.
Kids in my neighborhood are driving themselves to GMU.
Very few are going OOS, and those that are are going to schools that are highly undesirable here on DCUM.
These are the families that actually qualify for financial aid at private colleges. There are many places that are seeking out strong students with need, so the elite colleges that are the subject of this thread are actually more affordable to them than to families with incomes of $250K.
You’re assuming that all kids are “strong students”. No one is giving aid to kids with a 3.0.
Not the PP, but when people complain about being in a "donut hole" and implying that they have it worse off than middle income families, they are only talking about a small set of elite schools that guarantee to meet full need. For kids who have a chance at those schools there are plenty of other schools that will give them merit aid. For kids who don't have a chance at those schools, the "donut hole" kids are definitely better off than the lower income kids, because they can go to a lower status LAC which offers merit aid to everyone, or a state school where the tuition will be affordable to them, but likely still out of reach for the lower income kid, since those schools don't meet full need.
I'm not sure I believe the "donut hole" problem at all (not saying I don't believe that there are UMC families who want schools they can't afford, of course there are, I just don't think that this is a separate problem from there being families in every group but very rich who can't meet their EFC), but if it exists at all, it only applies to high stats kids.
This. I never felt all this handwringing about not being able to pay so much for college. We are well able to pay in the $35-$45k range per year and my kids aren't competitive for elite schools. So I have no problem with our state U options and mid tier schools that give merit and offer something the kids want that the state options don't. One kid is at VT. The other's best in-state option was UMW but she found a better fit at at OOS private w/ merit and that's fine.
At the same time I work with low income kids and I see how limited their options are and know we are very lucky. Sure, the low income kid who gets into Harvard gets a free ride but very, very, very few achieve that. Most of the kids I work with go do Nova-->GMU. A few stronger students get into UVA or W&M, both of which "meet need" so those can work out with loans (meeting need and meeting need without loans are not the same thing).
Anonymous
02/26/2023 18:15
Subject: What is a "donut hole family"?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I live in a neighborhood full of true donut hole families. I would say household incomes are 100k - 150k.
Kids in my neighborhood are driving themselves to GMU.
Very few are going OOS, and those that are are going to schools that are highly undesirable here on DCUM.
These are the families that actually qualify for financial aid at private colleges. There are many places that are seeking out strong students with need, so the elite colleges that are the subject of this thread are actually more affordable to them than to families with incomes of $250K.
You’re assuming that all kids are “strong students”. No one is giving aid to kids with a 3.0.
Not the PP, but when people complain about being in a "donut hole" and implying that they have it worse off than middle income families, they are only talking about a small set of elite schools that guarantee to meet full need. For kids who have a chance at those schools there are plenty of other schools that will give them merit aid. For kids who don't have a chance at those schools, the "donut hole" kids are definitely better off than the lower income kids, because they can go to a lower status LAC which offers merit aid to everyone, or a state school where the tuition will be affordable to them, but likely still out of reach for the lower income kid, since those schools don't meet full need.
I'm not sure I believe the "donut hole" problem at all (not saying I don't believe that there are UMC families who want schools they can't afford, of course there are, I just don't think that this is a separate problem from there being families in every group but very rich who can't meet their EFC), but if it exists at all, it only applies to high stats kids.
Anonymous
02/26/2023 18:06
Subject: What is a "donut hole family"?
Anonymous wrote:I live in a neighborhood full of true donut hole families. I would say household incomes are 100k - 150k.
Kids in my neighborhood are driving themselves to GMU.
Very few are going OOS, and those that are are going to schools that are highly undesirable here on DCUM.
Yeah I guess this is us. Except we live in DC so we have no in-state option. Yay.
Anonymous
02/26/2023 13:45
Subject: What is a "donut hole family"?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I live in a neighborhood full of true donut hole families. I would say household incomes are 100k - 150k.
Kids in my neighborhood are driving themselves to GMU.
Very few are going OOS, and those that are are going to schools that are highly undesirable here on DCUM.
These are the families that actually qualify for financial aid at private colleges. There are many places that are seeking out strong students with need, so the elite colleges that are the subject of this thread are actually more affordable to them than to families with incomes of $250K.
You’re assuming that all kids are “strong students”. No one is giving aid to kids with a 3.0.
No, there is a path for all students. It may not be elite and it may not be totally free, but community college and pell grants are available. Established online options sponsored by various employers also exist. There are many paths for a student that wants a college education with limited resources. The mythical 4 year "college experience" is not available to all.
Correct, but elite schools can choose to give that experience to all students they deem needy, and that’s what they do. They have the right and resources to that, and exercise that right.
I am the PP and I would make that an "and" not a "but". Agree completely that it is awesome for elite schools to make their schools accessible to students with significant need, who are also those that re likely to benefit the most from the resources and cohort at the elite institutions. This doesn't take away from the fact that there are also options for students at all income levels to access a college education.
Anonymous
02/26/2023 12:34
Subject: What is a "donut hole family"?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Being able to save for college is an absolute luxury. One of the only reasons we didn't drown in our 30s financially was because my DH and I were able to pay off our own college costs with some help from family.
If you are still paying you own student loans, it is tough to find cash to sock away for your kids. Especially since college savings should never come before retirement savings. How many Americans do you think have $1M in retirement savings? I'll answer that: VERY FEW.
Are college costs insane? Yes. If you are rich (making over $200k is RICH) does anyone feel bad for you? NO.
Those who are making $200 K and have a child of college age, have not been making $200 K for long, ourselves included. No way to save enough for private school, but private schools think we can afford $82k annually
So realize that there are plenty of schools (both private and public) just below the elite level and many offer great merit. So you can't afford $82K. So focus on finding the best you can afford. Even if you can afford it, many many many smart, highly talented kids with 4.0UW and 1550+ don't get into a T20 school. It's life. You are not entitled to anything. If you are really so smart, you should know that where you go does not matter as much as what you do when you get there (as well as if you can do it while not going into any or major debt). Your kid will do better if they are not straddled with debt and are not mentally stressed because they are not going to an elite school.
Oh please. First of all, there aren't THAT many of high quality schools that offer "great merit." Who are you to lecture people on what they should be required to expect or want? It's not "entitlement" it is the expectation that you save, your kid works their a$$ off . . . 20 years ago those kids and family could go to lots of schools (and pay for it) and a) not only may they not get it, b) if you do, you couldn't pay for it without liquidating the hardly extraordinary savings you've built up.
I had a conversation with a friend who recommended the school he went to for my child. And it would be a great fit for my kid. But I had to tell him that at $85K/year (including room and board), and NO merit aid given by this school, we would not be able to swing it w/o sacrificing . . . well pretty much everything and saving nothing else for 4 years of school (as well as liquidating what we have). And forget about any unforeseen complications: supporting parents, serious medical problems, loss of job. He was completely shocked and taken aback by that number and sorely disappointed in his alma mater. He even called a friend on the board to talk to him about it. He was not thrilled that there would be families like ours who wouldn't even apply to this school solely b/c we are in that big, fat donut hole.
Maybe save your sanctimony, PP, for things you actually know about. Dick.
We're a donut hole family but we've always emphasized to our kids that they can get a good education at most colleges if they put in the effort. In-state publics, OOS publics with merit, LACs and private universities with merit, regional colleges, etc. They're still excited by their options!
+1 my friend also recommended her now $70k+ no-merit LAC for my DD who wants a small school. I just let her know what it costs now (she had no idea) and that it wasn't in our budget. But we have a lot of good choices that will work. I did not feel at all insulted, diminished, shamed, or whatever because we can't/choose not to spend a ridiculous about on college. I feel really lucky we can spend up to $40k per year.
Anonymous
02/26/2023 12:29
Subject: What is a "donut hole family"?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I live in a neighborhood full of true donut hole families. I would say household incomes are 100k - 150k.
Kids in my neighborhood are driving themselves to GMU.
Very few are going OOS, and those that are are going to schools that are highly undesirable here on DCUM.
These are the families that actually qualify for financial aid at private colleges. There are many places that are seeking out strong students with need, so the elite colleges that are the subject of this thread are actually more affordable to them than to families with incomes of $250K.
You’re assuming that all kids are “strong students”. No one is giving aid to kids with a 3.0.
No, there is a path for all students. It may not be elite and it may not be totally free, but community college and pell grants are available. Established online options sponsored by various employers also exist. There are many paths for a student that wants a college education with limited resources. The mythical 4 year "college experience" is not available to all.
Correct, but elite schools can choose to give that experience to all students they deem needy, and that’s what they do. They have the right and resources to that, and exercise that right.
Anonymous
02/26/2023 12:18
Subject: What is a "donut hole family"?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Being able to save for college is an absolute luxury. One of the only reasons we didn't drown in our 30s financially was because my DH and I were able to pay off our own college costs with some help from family.
If you are still paying you own student loans, it is tough to find cash to sock away for your kids. Especially since college savings should never come before retirement savings. How many Americans do you think have $1M in retirement savings? I'll answer that: VERY FEW.
Are college costs insane? Yes. If you are rich (making over $200k is RICH) does anyone feel bad for you? NO.
Those who are making $200 K and have a child of college age, have not been making $200 K for long, ourselves included. No way to save enough for private school, but private schools think we can afford $82k annually
So realize that there are plenty of schools (both private and public) just below the elite level and many offer great merit. So you can't afford $82K. So focus on finding the best you can afford. Even if you can afford it, many many many smart, highly talented kids with 4.0UW and 1550+ don't get into a T20 school. It's life. You are not entitled to anything. If you are really so smart, you should know that where you go does not matter as much as what you do when you get there (as well as if you can do it while not going into any or major debt). Your kid will do better if they are not straddled with debt and are not mentally stressed because they are not going to an elite school.
Oh please. First of all, there aren't THAT many of high quality schools that offer "great merit." Who are you to lecture people on what they should be required to expect or want? It's not "entitlement" it is the expectation that you save, your kid works their a$$ off . . . 20 years ago those kids and family could go to lots of schools (and pay for it) and a) not only may they not get it, b) if you do, you couldn't pay for it without liquidating the hardly extraordinary savings you've built up.
I had a conversation with a friend who recommended the school he went to for my child. And it would be a great fit for my kid. But I had to tell him that at $85K/year (including room and board), and NO merit aid given by this school, we would not be able to swing it w/o sacrificing . . . well pretty much everything and saving nothing else for 4 years of school (as well as liquidating what we have). And forget about any unforeseen complications: supporting parents, serious medical problems, loss of job. He was completely shocked and taken aback by that number and sorely disappointed in his alma mater. He even called a friend on the board to talk to him about it. He was not thrilled that there would be families like ours who wouldn't even apply to this school solely b/c we are in that big, fat donut hole.
Maybe save your sanctimony, PP, for things you actually know about. Dick.
There are plenty of excellent schools that give merit. Might not be t50, but I’m smart enough to know there are good schools. My own kid got 60% merit at a t40-50 school. And they are only at 1470 Sat and 8 APs.
Similarly, my 25 act kid got 40% merit at a t80 school and 60% at at120. All good schools.
If you haven’t saved thereARE good schools, just maybe not t20 schools.
In our family rankings are only a small part of the process—we look at the actual school and what it has to offer.
And best schools include those we can afford.
Anonymous
02/26/2023 11:41
Subject: What is a "donut hole family"?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Being able to save for college is an absolute luxury. One of the only reasons we didn't drown in our 30s financially was because my DH and I were able to pay off our own college costs with some help from family.
If you are still paying you own student loans, it is tough to find cash to sock away for your kids. Especially since college savings should never come before retirement savings. How many Americans do you think have $1M in retirement savings? I'll answer that: VERY FEW.
Are college costs insane? Yes. If you are rich (making over $200k is RICH) does anyone feel bad for you? NO.
Those who are making $200 K and have a child of college age, have not been making $200 K for long, ourselves included. No way to save enough for private school, but private schools think we can afford $82k annually
So realize that there are plenty of schools (both private and public) just below the elite level and many offer great merit. So you can't afford $82K. So focus on finding the best you can afford. Even if you can afford it, many many many smart, highly talented kids with 4.0UW and 1550+ don't get into a T20 school. It's life. You are not entitled to anything. If you are really so smart, you should know that where you go does not matter as much as what you do when you get there (as well as if you can do it while not going into any or major debt). Your kid will do better if they are not straddled with debt and are not mentally stressed because they are not going to an elite school.
Oh please. First of all, there aren't THAT many of high quality schools that offer "great merit." Who are you to lecture people on what they should be required to expect or want? It's not "entitlement" it is the expectation that you save, your kid works their a$$ off . . . 20 years ago those kids and family could go to lots of schools (and pay for it) and a) not only may they not get it, b) if you do, you couldn't pay for it without liquidating the hardly extraordinary savings you've built up.
I had a conversation with a friend who recommended the school he went to for my child. And it would be a great fit for my kid. But I had to tell him that at $85K/year (including room and board), and NO merit aid given by this school, we would not be able to swing it w/o sacrificing . . . well pretty much everything and saving nothing else for 4 years of school (as well as liquidating what we have). And forget about any unforeseen complications: supporting parents, serious medical problems, loss of job. He was completely shocked and taken aback by that number and sorely disappointed in his alma mater. He even called a friend on the board to talk to him about it. He was not thrilled that there would be families like ours who wouldn't even apply to this school solely b/c we are in that big, fat donut hole.
Maybe save your sanctimony, PP, for things you actually know about. Dick.
We're a donut hole family but we've always emphasized to our kids that they can get a good education at most colleges if they put in the effort. In-state publics, OOS publics with merit, LACs and private universities with merit, regional colleges, etc. They're still excited by their options!
Anonymous
02/26/2023 11:34
Subject: What is a "donut hole family"?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I live in a neighborhood full of true donut hole families. I would say household incomes are 100k - 150k.
Kids in my neighborhood are driving themselves to GMU.
Very few are going OOS, and those that are are going to schools that are highly undesirable here on DCUM.
These are the families that actually qualify for financial aid at private colleges. There are many places that are seeking out strong students with need, so the elite colleges that are the subject of this thread are actually more affordable to them than to families with incomes of $250K.
You’re assuming that all kids are “strong students”. No one is giving aid to kids with a 3.0.
No, there is a path for all students. It may not be elite and it may not be totally free, but community college and pell grants are available. Established online options sponsored by various employers also exist. There are many paths for a student that wants a college education with limited resources. The mythical 4 year "college experience" is not available to all.
Anonymous
02/26/2023 10:43
Subject: What is a "donut hole family"?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I live in a neighborhood full of true donut hole families. I would say household incomes are 100k - 150k.
Kids in my neighborhood are driving themselves to GMU.
Very few are going OOS, and those that are are going to schools that are highly undesirable here on DCUM.
These are the families that actually qualify for financial aid at private colleges. There are many places that are seeking out strong students with need, so the elite colleges that are the subject of this thread are actually more affordable to them than to families with incomes of $250K.
You’re assuming that all kids are “strong students”. No one is giving aid to kids with a 3.0.
Anonymous
02/26/2023 10:40
Subject: What is a "donut hole family"?
Anonymous wrote:This is why we only had 1 kid. If the US wants to increase their birth rate, they need to reign in the cost of daycare and higher education.
Yeah that’s why Ethiopia has the lowest birthrate, and Scandinavian countries have the highest birthrates.
Anonymous
02/26/2023 10:37
Subject: What is a "donut hole family"?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Being able to save for college is an absolute luxury. One of the only reasons we didn't drown in our 30s financially was because my DH and I were able to pay off our own college costs with some help from family.
If you are still paying you own student loans, it is tough to find cash to sock away for your kids. Especially since college savings should never come before retirement savings. How many Americans do you think have $1M in retirement savings? I'll answer that: VERY FEW.
Are college costs insane? Yes. If you are rich (making over $200k is RICH) does anyone feel bad for you? NO.
Those who are making $200 K and have a child of college age, have not been making $200 K for long, ourselves included. No way to save enough for private school, but private schools think we can afford $82k annually
So realize that there are plenty of schools (both private and public) just below the elite level and many offer great merit. So you can't afford $82K. So focus on finding the best you can afford. Even if you can afford it, many many many smart, highly talented kids with 4.0UW and 1550+ don't get into a T20 school. It's life. You are not entitled to anything. If you are really so smart, you should know that where you go does not matter as much as what you do when you get there (as well as if you can do it while not going into any or major debt). Your kid will do better if they are not straddled with debt and are not mentally stressed because they are not going to an elite school.
Oh please. First of all, there aren't THAT many of high quality schools that offer "great merit." Who are you to lecture people on what they should be required to expect or want? It's not "entitlement" it is the expectation that you save, your kid works their a$$ off . . . 20 years ago those kids and family could go to lots of schools (and pay for it) and a) not only may they not get it, b) if you do, you couldn't pay for it without liquidating the hardly extraordinary savings you've built up.
I had a conversation with a friend who recommended the school he went to for my child. And it would be a great fit for my kid. But I had to tell him that at $85K/year (including room and board), and NO merit aid given by this school, we would not be able to swing it w/o sacrificing . . . well pretty much everything and saving nothing else for 4 years of school (as well as liquidating what we have). And forget about any unforeseen complications: supporting parents, serious medical problems, loss of job. He was completely shocked and taken aback by that number and sorely disappointed in his alma mater. He even called a friend on the board to talk to him about it. He was not thrilled that there would be families like ours who wouldn't even apply to this school solely b/c we are in that big, fat donut hole.
Maybe save your sanctimony, PP, for things you actually know about. Dick.
NP. Oh FFS. Where do I begin.
It’s clear from your post that you have no idea what first-gen students and students who qualify for significant financial aid at top privates go through. THEY “work there a$$es” off.
I put myself through college from 2002-2006. I worked 30 hours/week year-round, took out loans and it frankly sucked. Quit whining. You are in a bubble.
Anonymous
02/26/2023 10:37
Subject: What is a "donut hole family"?
This is why we only had 1 kid. If the US wants to increase their birth rate, they need to reign in the cost of daycare and higher education.
Anonymous
02/26/2023 10:35
Subject: Re:What is a "donut hole family"?
Anonymous wrote:The biggest issue IMO is that states have stopped supporting their public universities the way they used to. State universities should not be so unaffordable to most students. Private schools can do whatever they want but if they were competing against more affordable state Us for good students there would be some competitive pressure to keep the price hikes down. But, really, with all the discounting going on the actual price people pay for private Us, on average, has not gone up that much. The real growth in price paid is at public Us as state legislatures gutted their support of higher ed. Yes, you can pay $80K for a private university but that is a choice. Anyone doing that certainly had other, more affordable options.
We are fortunate in this area that there are nearby, good universities like GMU and UMD-CP where students can live at home to minimize cost. But plenty of kids live in areas where they do not have those options.
We are a donut hole family and we are saving for in state tuition. For VA, that can be up to $160k per kid. $320k. It’s crazy.