We may never know what happens. But it’s hardly the “of course he’s innocent!” that Sam’s team want it to be. Definitely some bizarre behavior from him and his family. If I were his wife I’d sleep with one eye open.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The original ME was sued by the Greenbergs and ultimately settled the lawsuit and as part of the settlement he changed his opinion to homicide. He was under immense pressure both legally and from the media/public. The city agreed to a fresh review and a different new ME has now again determined this was a suicide.

Was the original police investigation great? No. Sloppy? Probably.
Unfortunate because now some evidence is gone forever and we are less likely to know with absolute certainly exactly what happened? Yes. But this was not police corruption. And it sure as hell wasn’t corruption from the state attorney general’s office, headed at the time by Josh Shapiro. The Greenbergs have launched an extremely successful media blitz which has succeeded in garnering support from the court of public opinion. Most of whom do have not have accurate facts and are listening to sound bites from the parents’ lawyers.

You have the facts wrong here. Originally the ME said it was homicide. Was pressured by police and then changed it to suicide. The Greenbergs sued and he changed it to essentially undetermined. Then new ME reviewed and found suicide. People always conveniently forget that the original finding was homicide.

Who says he was pressured by police?

That’s literally a fact of the case. No one denies it. They had a meeting with him where they pressured him to change the manner of death based on their investigation. During a deposition the ME said one of the reasons he changed it from homicide to suicide is that the fiancé broke the door down in the presence of others. We now know that isn’t a true fact, so he changed the manner of death not based on what he saw on autopsy, but based on facts from the investigation that weren’t even true.

He asked for the security guard and another building employee to break down the door. There are texts and VM of him calling her repeatedly, there is video of him coming out of the gym to the elevator and then going back and forth, the sec guard calling the apartment as well, them offering him a key, etc Sam explained that it was locked from the inside and asked them to break it down. The sec guard couldn’t leave his post, so the building told him to shove the door in to break it open. Which he did (not caught on camera unfortunately bc the camera on that floor only reached partially down the hallway). He then called 911 a minute or two later. The neighbors heard all of this - they did not hear a murder or a struggle. You think they wouldn’t have heard her scream if he’d stabbed her 23 times?

The entire timeline and his story are supported by the evidence, which the first ME did not have that night. It’s an unusual case for sure, but it’s not a murder

All suspected suicide scenes should be fully processed as homicides just for situations like this. Such shoddy police work.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The original ME was sued by the Greenbergs and ultimately settled the lawsuit and as part of the settlement he changed his opinion to homicide. He was under immense pressure both legally and from the media/public. The city agreed to a fresh review and a different new ME has now again determined this was a suicide.

Was the original police investigation great? No. Sloppy? Probably. Unfortunate because now some evidence is gone forever and we are less likely to know with absolute certainly exactly what happened? Yes. But this was not police corruption. And it sure as hell wasn’t corruption from the state attorney general’s office, headed at the time by Josh Shapiro. The Greenbergs have launched an extremely successful media blitz which has succeeded in garnering support from the court of public opinion. Most of whom do have not have accurate facts and are listening to sound bites from the parents’ lawyers.

You have the facts wrong here. Originally the ME said it was homicide. Was pressured by police and then changed it to suicide. The Greenbergs sued and he changed it to essentially undetermined. Then new ME reviewed and found suicide. People always conveniently forget that the original finding was homicide.

Who says he was pressured by police?

That’s literally a fact of the case. No one denies it. They had a meeting with him where they pressured him to change the manner of death based on their investigation. During a deposition the ME said one of the reasons he changed it from homicide to suicide is that the fiancé broke the door down in the presence of others. We now know that isn’t a true fact, so he changed the manner of death not based on what he saw on autopsy, but based on facts from the investigation that weren’t even true.

Anonymous wrote:The crime scene investigation was bungled. His family went and retrieved all her electronics right after it happened, presumably because he told them to. Then it rather bizarrely got cleaned up right away. Prosecutors hate cases they cannot win.

It wasn’t bizarrely cleaned. It was cleaned as rentals are cleaned after a messy death. It’s unfortunate but it’s standard

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The original ME was sued by the Greenbergs and ultimately settled the lawsuit and as part of the settlement he changed his opinion to homicide. He was under immense pressure both legally and from the media/public. The city agreed to a fresh review and a different new ME has now again determined this was a suicide.

Was the original police investigation great? No. Sloppy? Probably. Unfortunate because now some evidence is gone forever and we are less likely to know with absolute certainly exactly what happened? Yes. But this was not police corruption. And it sure as hell wasn’t corruption from the state attorney general’s office, headed at the time by Josh Shapiro. The Greenbergs have launched an extremely successful media blitz which has succeeded in garnering support from the court of public opinion. Most of whom do have not have accurate facts and are listening to sound bites from the parents’ lawyers.

You have the facts wrong here. Originally the ME said it was homicide. Was pressured by police and then changed it to suicide. The Greenbergs sued and he changed it to essentially undetermined. Then new ME reviewed and found suicide. People always conveniently forget that the original finding was homicide.

Who says he was pressured by police?

Anonymous wrote:There are many experts (not armchair detectives) who have a problem with that suicide theory. Please stop trying to act like this is clear cut when it is anything but.

Thanks to the inept local police, your man Sam has no real way to prove his version of events.

What experts who are not paid by her family or social media bloggers trying to get clicks?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The knife handle was wiped clean of visible prints, including Ellen's. It was not properly processed until after non-police people were given access to the apartment. No chain of custody, so lack of DNA evidence on the knife proves nothing. How did Ellen wipe the knife after she killed herself?

We all agree the scene and evidence weee not preserved, documented or processed as a crime scene.

So then stop citing "lack of DNA" on the knife as exculpatory. It's not.

Her DNA was on the knife, his was not. That is confirmed

But her fingerprints were not. None were. Hmmm.

Yes, it’s a knife with a small surface area that was also wet with her blood. It is not surprising they didn’t get prints off it. But they did find her DNA. not his.

There are many experts (not armchair detectives) who have a problem with that suicide theory. Please stop trying to act like this is clear cut when it is anything but.

Thanks to the inept local police, your man Sam has no real way to prove his version of events.

Anonymous wrote:The original ME was sued by the Greenbergs and ultimately settled the lawsuit and as part of the settlement he changed his opinion to homicide. He was under immense pressure both legally and from the media/public. The city agreed to a fresh review and a different new ME has now again determined this was a suicide.

Was the original police investigation great? No. Sloppy? Probably. Unfortunate because now some evidence is gone forever and we are less likely to know with absolute certainly exactly what happened? Yes. But this was not police corruption. And it sure as hell wasn’t corruption from the state attorney general’s office, headed at the time by Josh Shapiro. The Greenbergs have launched an extremely successful media blitz which has succeeded in garnering support from the court of public opinion. Most of whom do have not have accurate facts and are listening to sound bites from the parents’ lawyers.

You have the facts wrong here. Originally the ME said it was homicide. Was pressured by police and then changed it to suicide. The Greenbergs sued and he changed it to essentially undetermined. Then new ME reviewed and found suicide. People always conveniently forget that the original finding was homicide.

The crime scene investigation was bungled. His family went and retrieved all her electronics right after it happened, presumably because he told them to. Then it rather bizarrely got cleaned up right away. Prosecutors hate cases they cannot win.

She was going to go home with visible bruises and tell mom and dad. He freaked out. This timeline posted above makes sense: He storms out but it is snowing so there is nowhere to go but the building gym and he fails to cool off. He repeatedly bothers the front desk because she has locked him out and gets no assistance.

It is actually common for abusers to falsely claim the victim has severe mental illness, substance abuse problems etc. He may have even been previously laying groundwork with his family to this effect.

The current wife is much more easy to control and he may have also mellowed out a lot with age and family money.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The knife handle was wiped clean of visible prints, including Ellen's. It was not properly processed until after non-police people were given access to the apartment. No chain of custody, so lack of DNA evidence on the knife proves nothing. How did Ellen wipe the knife after she killed herself?

We all agree the scene and evidence weee not preserved, documented or processed as a crime scene.

So then stop citing "lack of DNA" on the knife as exculpatory. It's not.

Her DNA was on the knife, his was not. That is confirmed

But her fingerprints were not. None were. Hmmm.

So what

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I cannot believe people doubt guy murdered her v suicide. Motives: DA, she wanted to leave, family if guilty party politically well connected to cover up.

Maybe 1, 2, 3, 4 things that are inconclusive points to possibility of suicide but when you have a pile of "circumstantial" evidence + motive for coverup = crime committed.

It's just pretty straight forward in that the girl had all sorts of stabs in back. Nobody is stabbing themselves repeatedly in the back committing suicide. Nobody who talks about moving home is committing suicide either. You commit suicide out of the blue. When you are anxious, you have fear about you in some capacity. She was agitated and on alert. Suicides either happen without any warning or out of a long history and cycle of depression which she did not have. It's 2 very different things. The over the edge sign for me is that her body showed evidence of DA. Someone was doing that.

There’s no evidence of DA or her wanting to Leave. His family wasn’t powerful

She stopped wearing her engagement ring too. The teacher coworkers thought that was suspicious. Maybe she was having doubts about him and did want to leave.

She was working with children in a public school in Philly. Can you think of another reason she wouldn’t wear a gigantic diamond to work?

I disagree.

The fact that her coworkers were concerned tells me it was the culture in that school for teachers to wear their engagement rings.

I worked at an inner city hospital and many of the nurses loved to wear their “rocks” to work. I don’t see how this is any different.

Such a shame there was never an investigation and the first ME was bullied into changing his report.

Those nurses sound like a-holes.

Your personal observations are meaningless. Tell us you don’t know anything about the Philly school Ellen was working at without telling us…

I agree, some of those nurses were shallow and materialistic.

Please explain why Ellen’s own coworkers thought that wearing an engagement ring at work was perfectly fine, and only became concerned when she stopped wearing it.

Why had Ellen packed her things that evening? Why did she want to move back with her parents? Why was she so desperate to get away from Sam?

For the thousandth time, the answer to all of the above is that Ellen was suffering from an acute mental heath crisis. She was desperate to get away from her job.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I cannot believe people doubt guy murdered her v suicide. Motives: DA, she wanted to leave, family if guilty party politically well connected to cover up.

Maybe 1, 2, 3, 4 things that are inconclusive points to possibility of suicide but when you have a pile of "circumstantial" evidence + motive for coverup = crime committed.

It's just pretty straight forward in that the girl had all sorts of stabs in back. Nobody is stabbing themselves repeatedly in the back committing suicide. Nobody who talks about moving home is committing suicide either. You commit suicide out of the blue. When you are anxious, you have fear about you in some capacity. She was agitated and on alert. Suicides either happen without any warning or out of a long history and cycle of depression which she did not have. It's 2 very different things. The over the edge sign for me is that her body showed evidence of DA. Someone was doing that.

There’s no evidence of DA or her wanting to Leave. His family wasn’t powerful

She stopped wearing her engagement ring too. The teacher coworkers thought that was suspicious. Maybe she was having doubts about him and did want to leave.

She was working with children in a public school in Philly. Can you think of another reason she wouldn’t wear a gigantic diamond to work?

I disagree.

The fact that her coworkers were concerned tells me it was the culture in that school for teachers to wear their engagement rings.

I worked at an inner city hospital and many of the nurses loved to wear their “rocks” to work. I don’t see how this is any different.

Such a shame there was never an investigation and the first ME was bullied into changing his report.

Those nurses sound like a-holes.

Your personal observations are meaningless. Tell us you don’t know anything about the Philly school Ellen was working at without telling us…

I agree, some of those nurses were shallow and materialistic.

Please explain why Ellen’s own coworkers thought that wearing an engagement ring at work was perfectly fine, and only became concerned when she stopped wearing it.

Why had Ellen packed her things that evening? Why did she want to move back with her parents? Why was she so desperate to get away from Sam?