Anonymous
Post 10/28/2013 21:31     Subject: Re:WAPO article about sever FFX school budget cuts
Anonymous wrote:Can't help but remember the mom who ranted that her kid needed to be in GT so he wouldn't be bored and destroy the class for the regular kids.......funny, my regular kid graduated with better than a 4.0 and got into prestigious colleges. Hers did not. Mine made National merit honors--hers did not........


This is very often the case. Most former elementary school Gen Ed kids wind up excelling once in middle and high school. Another reason AAP in elementary school is so unimportant in the long run.
Anonymous
Post 10/28/2013 17:59     Subject: Re:WAPO article about sever FFX school budget cuts
Anonymous wrote:Can't help but remember the mom who ranted that her kid needed to be in GT so he wouldn't be bored and destroy the class for the regular kids.......funny, my regular kid graduated with better than a 4.0 and got into prestigious colleges. Hers did not. Mine made National merit honors--hers did not........


Was the other kid accepted for GT?
Anonymous
Post 10/28/2013 12:40     Subject: Re:WAPO article about sever FFX school budget cuts
Can't help but remember the mom who ranted that her kid needed to be in GT so he wouldn't be bored and destroy the class for the regular kids.......funny, my regular kid graduated with better than a 4.0 and got into prestigious colleges. Hers did not. Mine made National merit honors--hers did not........
Anonymous
Post 10/28/2013 12:35     Subject: Re:WAPO article about sever FFX school budget cuts
Except for the fact that when they pay for it, more of the kids seem to meet the standards...........
Anonymous
Post 10/28/2013 11:39     Subject: WAPO article about sever FFX school budget cuts
I think having families pay for AAP testing and placement is a good idea. Most parents want this so badly, I think they'd pay for it.
Anonymous
Post 10/27/2013 16:11     Subject: WAPO article about sever FFX school budget cuts
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Yes, my article at Rochester SAGE is an op-ed, but the statement cited is supported by Susan Winebrenner's cluster grouping research which finds that removing the gifted students from a class allows the mid-high students to become more proficient and increase their academic self-esteem.


Would you expect any difference in effect depending on whether gifted students are "pulled out" once a week, put in a separate class within the same school, or removed from the original school completely and placed in a dedicated center? Much of the issue in FCPS seems to be that general education (GE) kids see Advanced Academic Programs (AAP) kids in the same school and feel constantly that they -- the GE kids -- are "less than."


The cluster grouping that Susan Winebrenner suggests is changing how classes in a grade are grouped. Typically, a classroom has five levels (High/Gifted, Mid-High, Mid, Mid-Low, and Low) in it. Cluster grouping would sort the students so that no more than three levels are in a classroom. The High and Low students are the most difficult to differentiate for, so a teacher would not have both groups in one classroom. Additionally, High and Mid-High would not be in the same classroom because this allows the Mid-High to gain confidence being the top of the class. The reduced number of levels means that a teacher can spend more time instructing each level.

This is not a pull-out program or a full day gifted program. It is not in a separate school and the classroom is probably only about 20% gifted students. However, it can be very effective for all students, including gifted, if implemented correctly.

Implementation is always the key to any technique though. The classroom with the High/Gifted students needs to be with a teacher who will provide material at their levels. In some schools, it may be difficult to find a teacher for a grade willing to do so or who believe that gifted students need work at their level.

I am not a fan of pull-out programs at all. Too often it results in extra work as the g/t students are expected to do the classroom work they missed. It also doesn't address the issue of a student who is gifted 24/7, but is used to placate parents and students.

I have seen separate classrooms within a school be quite effective. However, the culture of the school was that each student was at his or her level in each subject and so it was very common for students to walk down the hall to the next grade for a subject. The emphasis was on meeting each child where they needed to be met at and not who was better than whom.

I have also seen separate schools be extremely effective. The entire atmosphere of the school is different because the factory model no longer works and they are used to students who are far ahead in one or more areas. It all becomes about growth, not proficiency. There really is an amazing feel to it.

What you are describing is a cultural issue that starts with the administration and teachers. We are all equals. We all have strengths and weaknesses. I am not "less than" a varsity athlete because I have the athletic skills of a cucumber. I am not "more than" another student because my academic skills are better. Change the mindset to effort and growth instead of abilities and proficiency. Salute the students who work hard, but make sure that every student does have the chance to work hard to achieve their goals.


Thank you so much for sharing your insights and experience. I will need to mull over this information. It is encouraging to hear that a number of different models could be successful, depending on the implementation. At the same time, it's daunting as a parent to think of a cultural shift needed and to know that in many cases, particularly in GE, students aren't getting the opportunities they need for challenge and growth. I have to think that much of the discontent in FCPS would be reduced if more kids could be met at their level as you mention. Anything less should be unacceptable from either side of the AAP/GE divide.
Anonymous
Post 10/27/2013 13:21     Subject: Re:WAPO article about sever FFX school budget cuts
Well there must be a lot of bad teachers then. I think the large class sizes don't help.
Anonymous
Post 10/27/2013 08:27     Subject: Re:WAPO article about sever FFX school budget cuts
Any good teacher differentiates. It's not like there is only one child per class who is above average. Or, for that matter, below average.
Anonymous
Post 10/26/2013 22:29     Subject: Re:WAPO article about sever FFX school budget cuts
They get new students all the time, so they need to increase their budgets. How much would it cost the taxpayer just to fund these items? Maybe we should be talking about tax raises instead of cuts.
Anonymous
Post 10/26/2013 20:59     Subject: Re:WAPO article about sever FFX school budget cuts
Anonymous wrote:All I know is that the model above isn't really working at the lower grade level. There if very little differentiation even though FCPS claims to allow children to learn a year ahead starting in kindergarten.


Studies have shown that gifted students received no differentiation about 84% of the time. (Carol Ann Tomlinson, Differentiation for Gifted and Talented Students) Differentiation is an OK concept, but it is rarely followed through on. Cluster Grouping can work, but it requires a teacher willing to differentiate with the time to do so. Many are not willing or will only differentiate in limited amounts or in one or two subjects. Others are willing, but laws like NCLB place all the emphasis on the struggling student and force the neglect of the gifted learner.
Anonymous
Post 10/25/2013 22:26     Subject: WAPO article about sever FFX school budget cuts
All this misses the point.

The FY13 Budget was $2.4B
The FY14 Budget is $2.5B

There are no cuts. The budget is going up by $100,000,000.00 The "cuts" are from the dream request.

They have more money!
Anonymous
Post 10/25/2013 17:54     Subject: Re:WAPO article about sever FFX school budget cuts
And I hear the new model is to combine kids for science and social studies anyway, so it's really just math and language arts that isn't integrated under their new AAP model.
Anonymous
Post 10/25/2013 17:54     Subject: Re:WAPO article about sever FFX school budget cuts
All I know is that the model above isn't really working at the lower grade level. There if very little differentiation even though FCPS claims to allow children to learn a year ahead starting in kindergarten. No one checks whether they actually are doing this. And this is at a high SES school. I can't imagine it's much better at other schools. Maybe once every other week over the year for grades K-2 they get enrichment above the typical curriculum. The AAP teacher in our school also works with all kids at some point in the year and pulls out borderline AAP level IV kids for additional enrichment. If AAP specialists went away, there would be no pullouts for the level III and level II programs either.
Anonymous
Post 10/25/2013 16:22     Subject: WAPO article about sever FFX school budget cuts
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Yes, my article at Rochester SAGE is an op-ed, but the statement cited is supported by Susan Winebrenner's cluster grouping research which finds that removing the gifted students from a class allows the mid-high students to become more proficient and increase their academic self-esteem.


Would you expect any difference in effect depending on whether gifted students are "pulled out" once a week, put in a separate class within the same school, or removed from the original school completely and placed in a dedicated center? Much of the issue in FCPS seems to be that general education (GE) kids see Advanced Academic Programs (AAP) kids in the same school and feel constantly that they -- the GE kids -- are "less than."


The cluster grouping that Susan Winebrenner suggests is changing how classes in a grade are grouped. Typically, a classroom has five levels (High/Gifted, Mid-High, Mid, Mid-Low, and Low) in it. Cluster grouping would sort the students so that no more than three levels are in a classroom. The High and Low students are the most difficult to differentiate for, so a teacher would not have both groups in one classroom. Additionally, High and Mid-High would not be in the same classroom because this allows the Mid-High to gain confidence being the top of the class. The reduced number of levels means that a teacher can spend more time instructing each level.

This is not a pull-out program or a full day gifted program. It is not in a separate school and the classroom is probably only about 20% gifted students. However, it can be very effective for all students, including gifted, if implemented correctly.

Implementation is always the key to any technique though. The classroom with the High/Gifted students needs to be with a teacher who will provide material at their levels. In some schools, it may be difficult to find a teacher for a grade willing to do so or who believe that gifted students need work at their level.

I am not a fan of pull-out programs at all. Too often it results in extra work as the g/t students are expected to do the classroom work they missed. It also doesn't address the issue of a student who is gifted 24/7, but is used to placate parents and students.

I have seen separate classrooms within a school be quite effective. However, the culture of the school was that each student was at his or her level in each subject and so it was very common for students to walk down the hall to the next grade for a subject. The emphasis was on meeting each child where they needed to be met at and not who was better than whom.

I have also seen separate schools be extremely effective. The entire atmosphere of the school is different because the factory model no longer works and they are used to students who are far ahead in one or more areas. It all becomes about growth, not proficiency. There really is an amazing feel to it.

What you are describing is a cultural issue that starts with the administration and teachers. We are all equals. We all have strengths and weaknesses. I am not "less than" a varsity athlete because I have the athletic skills of a cucumber. I am not "more than" another student because my academic skills are better. Change the mindset to effort and growth instead of abilities and proficiency. Salute the students who work hard, but make sure that every student does have the chance to work hard to achieve their goals.
Anonymous
Post 10/25/2013 14:59     Subject: Re:WAPO article about sever FFX school budget cuts
Anonymous wrote:I think I'm moving over to the new thread created on budget cuts that actually talks about cuts and changes to help savings.


I think the AAP discussion is valid here because PPs have suggested doing away with the program if only to save $5-10 million. The question is whether the program benefits extend to more than the students actually enrolled, and whether in some cases the program may be detrimental to those not enrolled.