Anonymous wrote:Harvard extension…mostly online

Columbia SGS….mostly in classroom

Not the same!

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Anonymous wrote:Undergraduate:
Harvard Stanford MIT
Yale Princeton Columbia Caltech
Penn Chicago
Dartmouth Brown Duke Northwestern
Cornell JHU Berkeley

Overall:
Harvard Stanford
MIT Columbia Berkeley
Yale Princeton Caltech
Penn Chicago
Duke Northwestern JHU Cornell

We are tiers or whatever but Berkeley and Cornell for undergrad (or otherwise) are not and never been on JHU's level.

Columbia belongs with Penn and Chicago

Undergraduate:
Harvard Yale Princeton Stanford MIT
Columbia
Penn Chicago
Duke
Caltech
Dartmouth Brown Northwestern
Cornell JHU Berkeley

Overall:
Harvard Stanford Yale
MIT Princeton
Columbia Berkeley
Penn Chicago
Duke Northwestern
Caltech JHU Cornell Brown

Undergraduate:
Harvard Yale Princeton Stanford MIT
Columbia
Penn Chicago
Duke
Caltech
Dartmouth Brown Northwestern
Cornell JHU Berkeley

Overall:
Harvard Stanford
Yale MIT
Columbia Princeton Berkeley
Penn Chicago
Duke Northwestern
Caltech JHU Cornell Brown

H/S for all-roundedness. Yale and MIT for top-notch programs in either the arts or sciences, plus graduate schools.

Princeton does not have professional schools except Woodrow Wilson (PSIA). You also made it seem as if Columbia's law school, business school, and medical schools don't matter. Columbia also has top-notch journalism, architecture, and performing arts programs.

I thought we had a consensus on this? https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/450/976040.page

Undergraduate:

Harvard Stanford MIT Yale Princeton
Columbia Caltech
Penn Chicago
Duke Northwestern
Dartmouth Brown
Cornell JHU
Berkeley

Overall:

Harvard
Stanford MIT Yale
Columbia Princeton
Penn Chicago
Berkeley
Duke Northwestern

+1, this is the most accurate. No need for everyone to keep arguing and nitpicking.

+1, as of Sep.15, 2021, this is about as accurate as it stands.

How can something 100% arbitrary, presented without data or analysis, without any context, and entirely functionally meaningless be accurate in any way?

It's opinion. And you know what they say about opinions.

People who are shocked by the rise of Columbia seem to be shocked bc Columbia is not part of HYPSM. It’s kind of like saying Brazil soccer is perennially ranked #1 in the FIFA ranking, so they can’t imagine the possibility of Colombia soccer winning the next World Cup. The World Cup winner is not based on an arbitrary ranking. You have to have a live, physical competition to determine the winner. It’s the same with the NFL championship, the NBA championship, or the MLB World Series Championship. No one’s ever settled this year’s championship based on how the teams ranked last year. Yet, people coming on here are “shocked” that a school that is not even part of the arbitrary HYPSM is at the top of the charts.

Thank you for proving PP's point better than he/she ever could.

Comparing the quality of colleges to an annual sports tournament - the irrelevance is astounding!

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Undergraduate:
Harvard Stanford MIT
Yale Princeton Columbia Caltech
Penn Chicago
Dartmouth Brown Duke Northwestern
Cornell JHU Berkeley

Overall:
Harvard Stanford
MIT Columbia Berkeley
Yale Princeton Caltech
Penn Chicago
Duke Northwestern JHU Cornell

We are tiers or whatever but Berkeley and Cornell for undergrad (or otherwise) are not and never been on JHU's level.

Columbia belongs with Penn and Chicago

Undergraduate:
Harvard Yale Princeton Stanford MIT
Columbia
Penn Chicago
Duke
Caltech
Dartmouth Brown Northwestern
Cornell JHU Berkeley

Overall:
Harvard Stanford Yale
MIT Princeton
Columbia Berkeley
Penn Chicago
Duke Northwestern
Caltech JHU Cornell Brown

Undergraduate:
Harvard Yale Princeton Stanford MIT
Columbia
Penn Chicago
Duke
Caltech
Dartmouth Brown Northwestern
Cornell JHU Berkeley

Overall:
Harvard Stanford
Yale MIT
Columbia Princeton Berkeley
Penn Chicago
Duke Northwestern
Caltech JHU Cornell Brown

H/S for all-roundedness. Yale and MIT for top-notch programs in either the arts or sciences, plus graduate schools.

Princeton does not have professional schools except Woodrow Wilson (PSIA). You also made it seem as if Columbia's law school, business school, and medical schools don't matter. Columbia also has top-notch journalism, architecture, and performing arts programs.

I thought we had a consensus on this? https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/450/976040.page

Undergraduate:

Harvard Stanford MIT Yale Princeton
Columbia Caltech
Penn Chicago
Duke Northwestern
Dartmouth Brown
Cornell JHU
Berkeley

Overall:

Harvard
Stanford MIT Yale
Columbia Princeton
Penn Chicago
Berkeley
Duke Northwestern

+1, this is the most accurate. No need for everyone to keep arguing and nitpicking.

+1, as of Sep.15, 2021, this is about as accurate as it stands.

How can something 100% arbitrary, presented without data or analysis, without any context, and entirely functionally meaningless be accurate in any way?

It's opinion. And you know what they say about opinions.

People who are shocked by the rise of Columbia seem to be shocked bc Columbia is not part of HYPSM. It’s kind of like saying Brazil soccer is perennially ranked #1 in the FIFA ranking, so they can’t imagine the possibility of Colombia soccer winning the next World Cup. The World Cup winner is not based on an arbitrary ranking. You have to have a live, physical competition to determine the winner. It’s the same with the NFL championship, the NBA championship, or the MLB World Series Championship. No one’s ever settled this year’s championship based on how the teams ranked last year. Yet, people coming on here are “shocked” that a school that is not even part of the arbitrary HYPSM is at the top of the charts.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“I don’t see the issue. What is wrong with older students intermingling with the undergraduates. Older students bring life experience and different perspectives which can make class discussions more interesting and engaging.”

There is nothing wrong with it at all. But how much intermingling with transferred/non traditional students is acceptable when a rating system uses data from mostly accepted/matriculated 18 years olds to support its rankings. This is where I have a problem with a school like Columbia who has a huge percentage of their undergrads in the SGS taking classes alongside those from CC. They are basing their eliteness at USNWR off those 18 year olds and completely ignoring the 1/3 of the undergraduates who are not included in that data set. Is it so hard to understand why this might be a problem? The SGS is not an extension school like the one at Harvard. USNWR should clarify to its readers that this is not a typical practice at most elite schools. On the contrary, it rewards Columbia for not reporting that it’s overall student body is more than likely NOT the caliber of HYPSM by giving it an elevated ranking that it might otherwise not deserve.

What is your fascination with Columbia SGS? Why don't you go check it out yourself? Can we stop obsessing over Columbia and move onto other schools in the discussion? Do you have a beef with the school or something? Did you DS get rejected by Columbia and only ended up in UVA? Why don't you hit up the editors of Forbes and tell them, hey Columbia might not deserve its #5 national ranking, just like it didn't deserve the #2 ranking on USNWR? How does that sound to ya?

Anonymous wrote:“I don’t see the issue. What is wrong with older students intermingling with the undergraduates. Older students bring life experience and different perspectives which can make class discussions more interesting and engaging.”

There is nothing wrong with it at all. But how much intermingling with transferred/non traditional students is acceptable when a rating system uses data from mostly accepted/matriculated 18 years olds to support its rankings. This is where I have a problem with a school like Columbia who has a huge percentage of their undergrads in the SGS taking classes alongside those from CC. They are basing their eliteness at USNWR off those 18 year olds and completely ignoring the 1/3 of the undergraduates who are not included in that data set. Is it so hard to understand why this might be a problem? The SGS is not an extension school like the one at Harvard. USNWR should clarify to its readers that this is not a typical practice at most elite schools. On the contrary, it rewards Columbia for not reporting that it’s overall student body is more than likely NOT the caliber of HYPSM by giving it an elevated ranking that it might otherwise not deserve.

Anonymous wrote:“I don’t see the issue. What is wrong with older students intermingling with the undergraduates. Older students bring life experience and different perspectives which can make class discussions more interesting and engaging.”

There is nothing wrong with it at all. But how much intermingling with transferred/non traditional students is acceptable when a rating system uses data from mostly accepted/matriculated 18 years olds to support its rankings. This is where I have a problem with a school like Columbia who has a huge percentage of their undergrads in the SGS taking classes alongside those from CC. They are basing their eliteness at USNWR off those 18 year olds and completely ignoring the 1/3 of the undergraduates who are not included in that data set. Is it so hard to understand why this might be a problem? The SGS is not an extension school like the one at Harvard. USNWR should clarify to its readers that this is not a typical practice at most elite schools. On the contrary, it rewards Columbia for not reporting that it’s overall student body is more than likely NOT the caliber of HYPSM by giving it an elevated ranking that it might otherwise not deserve.

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Anonymous wrote:Are the extension students at Harvard taking classes alongside Harvard College students? It’s doubtful many are since 70% of the courses are given online. I think it’s wonderful that Columbia allows 1/3 of its undergraduates to be non traditional students and in classrooms with those brilliant 18 year olds. USNWR rewards them for this as well, by not reporting the huge percentage of students entering without the stellar grades and scores.

Yes, they are. HES students can sit in for the same in-person classes as Harvard College students, as well as online classes. About 1,000 sit in for a ALB degree. Harvard does not report this data, neither does Penn, which awards bachelor degrees to nontraditional students through the School of Liberal and Professional Studies.

I’m sure that the vast majority are taking mostly online classes however. Be it as it may, Columbia brings it to a whole new level. 1/3 of its undergraduates in the SGS!

No, you're wrong. And they get the ALB degree that has been the focal point of complaint by quite a few Harvard students because HES students frequently present themselves as Harvard College grads. Columbia enrolls about 2,000 non-traditional students. So, you're saying that veterans (who compose a large percentage of SGS) who fought and bled for our country don't really deserve to get an Ivy League education? What's wrong with expanding access to an elite education? Aren't universities meant to increase social mobility? I am really at a loss of words.

You’re projecting too much. I never said anything about veterans. I’m saying that Columbia’s ranking is too high because USNWR rewards it for having way too high of a percentage of its transfer students in its undergraduate program. The vast majority of those students would never be admitted as freshman. The data provided by Columbia and distributed by USNWR give it an air of ultra eliteness. Is that really an accurate picture?

Columbia grad here. Not PP. I can vouch for the undergraduate college (CC) and engineering (SEAS), they are about as "elite" as any Ivy can be. But no, we don't have too high of a percentage of transfer students. At most 5% of the class, and it's very competitive, the acceptance rate is just as low as getting in as freshman. GS-wise, I am not really sure haha. It's in a league of its own, and the campus is quite segregated I would say, because GS people don't live on campus and tend to be much older, so they don't really interact with CC or SEAS students. It used to be exclusively for military folks, but I think now they've included community college transfers... They were never included in the rankings to begin with. I don't even think the school ever reports GS data. It's been doing so for the past 15-20 years, and it's not like GS is some hidden secret from USNWR editors.

Can we stop talking about Columbia. It's a great school, just not HYPSM.

Although I would say that Columbia's undergraduate school may not be as desirable or prestigious as HYPSM, the school overall is better than some of those 5 schools.

With strong humanities, social sciences, and STEM departments, this puts Columbia in the tier of Harvard, Stanford, Princeton, and Berkeley for the arts and sciences. For professional schools, while they are not as good as Harvard and Stanford's, is still the third best overall when including law, medicine, business, international affairs, public health, journalism, etc.

Yale's weakness in STEM, and especially in engineering, is an embarrassment to the school at this point, and their business and med school isn't elite. While Princeton is strong across the arts and sciences, their lack of professional grad schools make it a school that shouldn't be grouped with universities that are elite in virtually all areas. The same argument goes for MIT, which is basically a one-trick pony in STEM (aside from business and some social sciences).

In other words, only two of the HYPSM schools are truly better than Columbia, and they are Harvard and Stanford. Columbia is a better school overall than Yale, Princeton, and MIT. I'm not saying that Columbia is more prestigious than these three schools, but objectively better from an academic standpoint.

+1 you guys are too obsessed with undergrad, look at the bigger picture.

The USNWR rankings that just came out ARE for undergraduate students. That’s the whole point of this discussion.

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Anonymous wrote:Are the extension students at Harvard taking classes alongside Harvard College students? It’s doubtful many are since 70% of the courses are given online. I think it’s wonderful that Columbia allows 1/3 of its undergraduates to be non traditional students and in classrooms with those brilliant 18 year olds. USNWR rewards them for this as well, by not reporting the huge percentage of students entering without the stellar grades and scores.

Yes, they are. HES students can sit in for the same in-person classes as Harvard College students, as well as online classes. About 1,000 sit in for a ALB degree. Harvard does not report this data, neither does Penn, which awards bachelor degrees to nontraditional students through the School of Liberal and Professional Studies.

I’m sure that the vast majority are taking mostly online classes however. Be it as it may, Columbia brings it to a whole new level. 1/3 of its undergraduates in the SGS!

No, you're wrong. And they get the ALB degree that has been the focal point of complaint by quite a few Harvard students because HES students frequently present themselves as Harvard College grads. Columbia enrolls about 2,000 non-traditional students. So, you're saying that veterans (who compose a large percentage of SGS) who fought and bled for our country don't really deserve to get an Ivy League education? What's wrong with expanding access to an elite education? Aren't universities meant to increase social mobility? I am really at a loss of words.

You’re projecting too much. I never said anything about veterans. I’m saying that Columbia’s ranking is too high because USNWR rewards it for having way too high of a percentage of its transfer students in its undergraduate program. The vast majority of those students would never be admitted as freshman. The data provided by Columbia and distributed by USNWR give it an air of ultra eliteness. Is that really an accurate picture?

Columbia grad here. Not PP. I can vouch for the undergraduate college (CC) and engineering (SEAS), they are about as "elite" as any Ivy can be. But no, we don't have too high of a percentage of transfer students. At most 5% of the class, and it's very competitive, the acceptance rate is just as low as getting in as freshman. GS-wise, I am not really sure haha. It's in a league of its own, and the campus is quite segregated I would say, because GS people don't live on campus and tend to be much older, so they don't really interact with CC or SEAS students. It used to be exclusively for military folks, but I think now they've included community college transfers... They were never included in the rankings to begin with. I don't even think the school ever reports GS data. It's been doing so for the past 15-20 years, and it's not like GS is some hidden secret from USNWR editors.

Can we stop talking about Columbia. It's a great school, just not HYPSM.

Although I would say that Columbia's undergraduate school may not be as desirable or prestigious as HYPSM, the school overall is better than some of those 5 schools.

With strong humanities, social sciences, and STEM departments, this puts Columbia in the tier of Harvard, Stanford, Princeton, and Berkeley for the arts and sciences. For professional schools, while they are not as good as Harvard and Stanford's, is still the third best overall when including law, medicine, business, international affairs, public health, journalism, etc.

Yale's weakness in STEM, and especially in engineering, is an embarrassment to the school at this point, and their business and med school isn't elite. While Princeton is strong across the arts and sciences, their lack of professional grad schools make it a school that shouldn't be grouped with universities that are elite in virtually all areas. The same argument goes for MIT, which is basically a one-trick pony in STEM (aside from business and some social sciences).

In other words, only two of the HYPSM schools are truly better than Columbia, and they are Harvard and Stanford. Columbia is a better school overall than Yale, Princeton, and MIT. I'm not saying that Columbia is more prestigious than these three schools, but objectively better from an academic standpoint.

+1 you guys are too obsessed with undergrad, look at the bigger picture.

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Anonymous wrote:Are the extension students at Harvard taking classes alongside Harvard College students? It’s doubtful many are since 70% of the courses are given online. I think it’s wonderful that Columbia allows 1/3 of its undergraduates to be non traditional students and in classrooms with those brilliant 18 year olds. USNWR rewards them for this as well, by not reporting the huge percentage of students entering without the stellar grades and scores.

Yes, they are. HES students can sit in for the same in-person classes as Harvard College students, as well as online classes. About 1,000 sit in for a ALB degree. Harvard does not report this data, neither does Penn, which awards bachelor degrees to nontraditional students through the School of Liberal and Professional Studies.

I’m sure that the vast majority are taking mostly online classes however. Be it as it may, Columbia brings it to a whole new level. 1/3 of its undergraduates in the SGS!

No, you're wrong. And they get the ALB degree that has been the focal point of complaint by quite a few Harvard students because HES students frequently present themselves as Harvard College grads. Columbia enrolls about 2,000 non-traditional students. So, you're saying that veterans (who compose a large percentage of SGS) who fought and bled for our country don't really deserve to get an Ivy League education? What's wrong with expanding access to an elite education? Aren't universities meant to increase social mobility? I am really at a loss of words.

You’re projecting too much. I never said anything about veterans. I’m saying that Columbia’s ranking is too high because USNWR rewards it for having way too high of a percentage of its transfer students in its undergraduate program. The vast majority of those students would never be admitted as freshman. The data provided by Columbia and distributed by USNWR give it an air of ultra eliteness. Is that really an accurate picture?

Columbia grad here. Not PP. I can vouch for the undergraduate college (CC) and engineering (SEAS), they are about as "elite" as any Ivy can be. But no, we don't have too high of a percentage of transfer students. At most 5% of the class, and it's very competitive, the acceptance rate is just as low as getting in as freshman. GS-wise, I am not really sure haha. It's in a league of its own, and the campus is quite segregated I would say, because GS people don't live on campus and tend to be much older, so they don't really interact with CC or SEAS students. It used to be exclusively for military folks, but I think now they've included community college transfers... They were never included in the rankings to begin with. I don't even think the school ever reports GS data. It's been doing so for the past 15-20 years, and it's not like GS is some hidden secret from USNWR editors.

Can we stop talking about Columbia. It's a great school, just not HYPSM.

Although I would say that Columbia's undergraduate school may not be as desirable or prestigious as HYPSM, the school overall is better than some of those 5 schools.

With strong humanities, social sciences, and STEM departments, this puts Columbia in the tier of Harvard, Stanford, Princeton, and Berkeley for the arts and sciences. For professional schools, while they are not as good as Harvard and Stanford's, is still the third best overall when including law, medicine, business, international affairs, public health, journalism, etc.

Yale's weakness in STEM, and especially in engineering, is an embarrassment to the school at this point, and their business and med school isn't elite. While Princeton is strong across the arts and sciences, their lack of professional grad schools make it a school that shouldn't be grouped with universities that are elite in virtually all areas. The same argument goes for MIT, which is basically a one-trick pony in STEM (aside from business and some social sciences).

In other words, only two of the HYPSM schools are truly better than Columbia, and they are Harvard and Stanford. Columbia is a better school overall than Yale, Princeton, and MIT. I'm not saying that Columbia is more prestigious than these three schools, but objectively better from an academic standpoint.

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Anonymous wrote:Are the extension students at Harvard taking classes alongside Harvard College students? It’s doubtful many are since 70% of the courses are given online. I think it’s wonderful that Columbia allows 1/3 of its undergraduates to be non traditional students and in classrooms with those brilliant 18 year olds. USNWR rewards them for this as well, by not reporting the huge percentage of students entering without the stellar grades and scores.

Yes, they are. HES students can sit in for the same in-person classes as Harvard College students, as well as online classes. About 1,000 sit in for a ALB degree. Harvard does not report this data, neither does Penn, which awards bachelor degrees to nontraditional students through the School of Liberal and Professional Studies.

I’m sure that the vast majority are taking mostly online classes however. Be it as it may, Columbia brings it to a whole new level. 1/3 of its undergraduates in the SGS!

No, you're wrong. And they get the ALB degree that has been the focal point of complaint by quite a few Harvard students because HES students frequently present themselves as Harvard College grads. Columbia enrolls about 2,000 non-traditional students. So, you're saying that veterans (who compose a large percentage of SGS) who fought and bled for our country don't really deserve to get an Ivy League education? What's wrong with expanding access to an elite education? Aren't universities meant to increase social mobility? I am really at a loss of words.

You’re projecting too much. I never said anything about veterans. I’m saying that Columbia’s ranking is too high because USNWR rewards it for having way too high of a percentage of its transfer students in its undergraduate program. The vast majority of those students would never be admitted as freshman. The data provided by Columbia and distributed by USNWR give it an air of ultra eliteness. Is that really an accurate picture?

Anonymous wrote:Are the extension students at Harvard taking classes alongside Harvard College students? It’s doubtful many are since 70% of the courses are given online. I think it’s wonderful that Columbia allows 1/3 of its undergraduates to be non traditional students and in classrooms with those brilliant 18 year olds. USNWR rewards them for this as well, by not reporting the huge percentage of students entering without the stellar grades and scores.

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Anonymous wrote:Are the extension students at Harvard taking classes alongside Harvard College students? It’s doubtful many are since 70% of the courses are given online. I think it’s wonderful that Columbia allows 1/3 of its undergraduates to be non traditional students and in classrooms with those brilliant 18 year olds. USNWR rewards them for this as well, by not reporting the huge percentage of students entering without the stellar grades and scores.

Yes, they are. HES students can sit in for the same in-person classes as Harvard College students, as well as online classes. About 1,000 sit in for a ALB degree. Harvard does not report this data, neither does Penn, which awards bachelor degrees to nontraditional students through the School of Liberal and Professional Studies.

I’m sure that the vast majority are taking mostly online classes however. Be it as it may, Columbia brings it to a whole new level. 1/3 of its undergraduates in the SGS!

No, you're wrong. And they get the ALB degree that has been the focal point of complaint by quite a few Harvard students because HES students frequently present themselves as Harvard College grads. Columbia enrolls about 2,000 non-traditional students. So, you're saying that veterans (who compose a large percentage of SGS) who fought and bled for our country don't really deserve to get an Ivy League education? What's wrong with expanding access to an elite education? Aren't universities meant to increase social mobility? I am really at a loss of words.

You’re projecting too much. I never said anything about veterans. I’m saying that Columbia’s ranking is too high because USNWR rewards it for having way too high of a percentage of its transfer students in its undergraduate program. The vast majority of those students would never be admitted as freshman. The data provided by Columbia and distributed by USNWR give it an air of ultra eliteness. Is that really an accurate picture?

Columbia grad here. Not PP. I can vouch for the undergraduate college (CC) and engineering (SEAS), they are about as "elite" as any Ivy can be. But no, we don't have too high of a percentage of transfer students. At most 5% of the class, and it's very competitive, the acceptance rate is just as low as getting in as freshman. GS-wise, I am not really sure haha. It's in a league of its own, and the campus is quite segregated I would say, because GS people don't live on campus and tend to be much older, so they don't really interact with CC or SEAS students. It used to be exclusively for military folks, but I think now they've included community college transfers... They were never included in the rankings to begin with. I don't even think the school ever reports GS data. It's been doing so for the past 15-20 years, and it's not like GS is some hidden secret from USNWR editors.

Can we stop talking about Columbia. It's a great school, just not HYPSM.

Although I would say that Columbia's undergraduate school may not be as desirable or prestigious as HYPSM, the school overall is better than some of those 5 schools.

With strong humanities, social sciences, and STEM departments, this puts Columbia in the tier of Harvard, Stanford, Princeton, and Berkeley for the arts and sciences. For professional schools, while they are not as good as Harvard and Stanford's, is still the third best overall when including law, medicine, business, international affairs, public health, journalism, etc.

Yale's weakness in STEM, and especially in engineering, is an embarrassment to the school at this point, and their business and med school isn't elite. While Princeton is strong across the arts and sciences, their lack of professional grad schools make it a school that shouldn't be grouped with universities that are elite in virtually all areas. The same argument goes for MIT, which is basically a one-trick pony in STEM (aside from business and some social sciences).

In other words, only two of the HYPSM schools are truly better than Columbia, and they are Harvard and Stanford. Columbia is a better school overall than Yale, Princeton, and MIT. I'm not saying that Columbia is more prestigious than these three schools, but objectively better from an academic standpoint.