Anonymous
02/04/2025 19:49
Subject: Plane crash DCA?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Some helo pilots are cowboy mentality, even older ones.
We had a company helicopter and on a Richmond landing the pilot was arguing with ATC (female) about going around. I looked left and saw a Delta jet coming in and told him look left there's a jet. Our boss looked, said,Bob go around and then he did.
Corporate pilots are often not former military pilots. There’s a reason private planes crash more often than military and commercial planes. It’s because private flight training is nowhere near as good as military training - to include checking your “cowboy attitude”. That’s for the movies, not real life.
Glad to hear. Crazy Bob was an Army pilot though.
Anonymous
02/04/2025 19:48
Subject: Plane crash DCA?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Maybe the second ATC who left early (because of staff shortages) would have been more specific re where the plane was. Some pilots say absolutely should be been more specific in that air space. Anyone know what is actually required?
How much more specific could they have been? I’m sure the helicopter team would’ve been offended by being talked down to as if they didn’t know what they were doing. That happens all the time across all career paths. Additional instruction is taken as an insult to your abilities.
That is ridiculous. There were multiple planes in the area and withing sight. It was completely foreseeable that the BH's pilots could get confused.
I have now heard it all -- that the BH pilots would ahve been "offended" if the ATC had said "do you see the CRJ at 11 oclock" versus the ones elsewhere.
ATC did provide specific location coordinates, and BH confirmed they had CRJ in sight.
Can you explain where you found this info?
I am sure you have seen this by now -
"Traffic just south of the Woodrow Bridge, a CRJ, it's 1,200 feet setting up for Runway 33."
I had listened but couldn't make out the specifics, thanks. So I don't understand could anyone could say ATC should have been more specific. This really deflates the "they were looking at a different plane" argument.
Anonymous
02/04/2025 19:42
Subject: Plane crash DCA?
Anonymous wrote:NTSB report confirmed heli was flying too high, why are we still discussing this?
I agree. To me the only question that remains is are we looking at malicious intent or gross incompetence. My money is on the latter.
Anonymous
02/04/2025 19:36
Subject: Plane crash DCA?
NTSB report confirmed heli was flying too high, why are we still discussing this?
Anonymous
02/04/2025 19:31
Subject: Plane crash DCA?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:ATC is not allowed to resign. They aren't part of that deal that's being offered.Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Who was the ATC who left their shift early? Who was the supervisor who let them?
Maybe they had explosive diarrhea. You have no idea the circumstances.
Shouldn't they have a backup?
They'd just received an email asking them to resign. They are already understaffed. But maybe you can ask the Peter Thiel boy toys helping Elon Musk break into the government computer systems.
They have access to classified info already, so maybe the 19 yo who goes by "bigballs" can help you or maybe Luke Farritor can let you know why they didn't have backup.
After all, they are in charge at OPM now!
As someone else pointed out, they received an email suggesting they resign.
This crash is Trump’s fault.
The crash was not due to an ATC staffing issue (which has been short for YEARS). We already know several of the multiple errors that have led to the crash, and none of them are a problem with ATC. But you know that..
Not the PP to whom you're responding, but: An ATC in the DCA tower was handling both plane and helicopter traffic, earlier in the evening than was standard practice, apparently because another controller left work early. The two types of aircraft were supposed to be handled by separate ATCs until 9:30 p.m. But on that night, a solo ATC was handling both about an hour earlier than normal. This is according to reporting in the Post and many other outlets.
No one is saying yet whether this change caused or even affected the crash at all; that is for the investigators to decide. But it is foolish and extremely premature of you to insist at this time that ATC staffing and/or actions had nothing to do with events that night.
They handled the one helicopter that hour and the normal 8-9pm plane landings just fine.
The Blackhawk had the issues, investigation will uncover what the issues were.
I never said the Blackhawk didn't have issues. I also never said ATC was to blame. My post pointed out widely reported facts about the staffing in the tower at that point in time. Someone here has a real investment in insisting ATC was fine and dandy that night, but we, here, cannot possibly know that. We can only know the facts: A controller left early, another one was handling two people's jobs at the time of the crash, and --that is all we know. No blame to be assigned yet. For you to insist that "the Blackhawk had the issues," as if nothing else was a factor, is premature and arrogant. We. Don't. Know. Don't try to interpet this as my saying the Blackhawk is not to blame and ATC is. I am not saying that. I'm saying: Stick to the effing facts known at the moment.
And the fact that other landings around the same hour were "just fine" is a strange thing to point out. All flights were fine until one wasn't. The same is true every hour of every day on every flight path or road. What's your point? That an ATC couldn't have messed up one call, since that same ATC got other calls right, around the same time? Foolish argument.
Anonymous
02/04/2025 18:11
Subject: Plane crash DCA?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Maybe the second ATC who left early (because of staff shortages) would have been more specific re where the plane was. Some pilots say absolutely should be been more specific in that air space. Anyone know what is actually required?
How much more specific could they have been? I’m sure the helicopter team would’ve been offended by being talked down to as if they didn’t know what they were doing. That happens all the time across all career paths. Additional instruction is taken as an insult to your abilities.
Agree, not casting any blame, but appears the helo crew was quick to respond both times along the lines of "yeah yeah we got it, visual sep pls, thank you".
Some kind of a malfunction, maybe the altimeter will likely be the proximal cause.
We need to invest in finding ways to fail safely.
If you look on Reddit aviation, someone called this situation the most common ‘lie’ in flying. That a pilot is typically focused on their instruments and just reflexively says ‘plane in view’ or whatever and then gives themselves a second to adjust their view and get the object in site. I guess this time it didn’t work.
If the ATC had been more specific, it might have helped. If the airport wasn’t so busy, it might have helped. And most of all, clearly the rules about helo flying under heavy jet traffic with only visual separation has to be re thought. Hopefully the rules will change. This was an accident waiting to happen.
This was one of the less busy “zones of time” Reagan experiences FWIW.
Ok that’s one point of 3, the most salient one being that helos and jets shouldn’t be crossing paths so closely. A similar near miss happened earlier in the week
Anonymous
02/04/2025 18:02
Subject: Plane crash DCA?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:So am I getting this straight—MAGA was desperate to get the BH pilot name because not releasing it was a conspiracy, but now they are aghast that people want the VIP’s name because it’s not some conspiracy?
Yes, you have that right.
Well, that’s idiotic.
DP
Anonymous
02/04/2025 17:52
Subject: Plane crash DCA?
Anonymous wrote:I’m starting to feel like instead of figuring out how much we can pinpoint blame on any specific pilot, passenger, or VIP, everything really needs to be reassessed at a systemic level: the congestion at DCA, working conditions/staffing for ATCs, approved flight paths and protocols.
The bigger picture that this could happen at all has some troubling implications for a real continuity-of-govt evacuation situation (in which something so dire could occur requiring this evacuation route, but traffic at DCA could not be diverted/grounded in time)
But in the case of an evacuation, would passenger planes be incoming?
Anonymous
02/04/2025 17:50
Subject: Plane crash DCA?
Anonymous wrote:Some helo pilots are cowboy mentality, even older ones.
We had a company helicopter and on a Richmond landing the pilot was arguing with ATC (female) about going around. I looked left and saw a Delta jet coming in and told him look left there's a jet. Our boss looked, said,Bob go around and then he did.
Corporate pilots are often not former military pilots. There’s a reason private planes crash more often than military and commercial planes. It’s because private flight training is nowhere near as good as military training - to include checking your “cowboy attitude”. That’s for the movies, not real life.
Anonymous
02/04/2025 17:19
Subject: Plane crash DCA?
^*pilot, passenger, or ATC
Anonymous
02/04/2025 17:16
Subject: Plane crash DCA?
I’m starting to feel like instead of figuring out how much we can pinpoint blame on any specific pilot, passenger, or VIP, everything really needs to be reassessed at a systemic level: the congestion at DCA, working conditions/staffing for ATCs, approved flight paths and protocols.
The bigger picture that this could happen at all has some troubling implications for a real continuity-of-govt evacuation situation (in which something so dire could occur requiring this evacuation route, but traffic at DCA could not be diverted/grounded in time)
The bigger picture that this could happen at all has some troubling implications for a real continuity-of-govt evacuation situation (in which something so dire could occur requiring this evacuation route, but traffic at DCA could not be diverted/grounded in time)
Anonymous
02/04/2025 17:12
Subject: Plane crash DCA?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Maybe the second ATC who left early (because of staff shortages) would have been more specific re where the plane was. Some pilots say absolutely should be been more specific in that air space. Anyone know what is actually required?
How much more specific could they have been? I’m sure the helicopter team would’ve been offended by being talked down to as if they didn’t know what they were doing. That happens all the time across all career paths. Additional instruction is taken as an insult to your abilities.
Agree, not casting any blame, but appears the helo crew was quick to respond both times along the lines of "yeah yeah we got it, visual sep pls, thank you".
Some kind of a malfunction, maybe the altimeter will likely be the proximal cause.
We need to invest in finding ways to fail safely.
If you look on Reddit aviation, someone called this situation the most common ‘lie’ in flying. That a pilot is typically focused on their instruments and just reflexively says ‘plane in view’ or whatever and then gives themselves a second to adjust their view and get the object in site. I guess this time it didn’t work.
If the ATC had been more specific, it might have helped. If the airport wasn’t so busy, it might have helped. And most of all, clearly the rules about helo flying under heavy jet traffic with only visual separation has to be re thought. Hopefully the rules will change. This was an accident waiting to happen.
This was one of the less busy “zones of time” Reagan experiences FWIW.
Anonymous
02/04/2025 17:04
Subject: Plane crash DCA?
Some helo pilots are cowboy mentality, even older ones.
We had a company helicopter and on a Richmond landing the pilot was arguing with ATC (female) about going around. I looked left and saw a Delta jet coming in and told him look left there's a jet. Our boss looked, said,Bob go around and then he did.
We had a company helicopter and on a Richmond landing the pilot was arguing with ATC (female) about going around. I looked left and saw a Delta jet coming in and told him look left there's a jet. Our boss looked, said,Bob go around and then he did.
Anonymous
02/04/2025 17:00
Subject: Plane crash DCA?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Who was the ATC who left their shift early? Who was the supervisor who let them?
If all the airport staff were straight white males we’d know all their names by now, I know that much.
Not so sure about that. I think it’s to avoid retaliation. There was an ATC named Peter Nielsen who was in charge when two airplanes collided in Germany in 2002, and his name was released to the media. He was found not guilty of any wrongdoing, but was murdered two years later in revenge by someone who lost family members in the flight.
The night of the crash, Nielsen had not been notified at all of a major software upgrade that was taking place during his shift, which disabled alarms at his station for planes on collision courses among other changes, nor was he made aware that the phone systems in the tower were down as well. His partner was also asleep; Nielsen was not supposed to be the sole ATC that night. None of these findings mattered to the man who tracked him down and stabbed him to death in his yard in front of his wife and children.
Anonymous
02/04/2025 16:43
Subject: Plane crash DCA?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:ATC is not allowed to resign. They aren't part of that deal that's being offered.Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Who was the ATC who left their shift early? Who was the supervisor who let them?
Maybe they had explosive diarrhea. You have no idea the circumstances.
Shouldn't they have a backup?
They'd just received an email asking them to resign. They are already understaffed. But maybe you can ask the Peter Thiel boy toys helping Elon Musk break into the government computer systems.
They have access to classified info already, so maybe the 19 yo who goes by "bigballs" can help you or maybe Luke Farritor can let you know why they didn't have backup.
After all, they are in charge at OPM now!
As someone else pointed out, they received an email suggesting they resign.
This crash is Trump’s fault.
The crash was not due to an ATC staffing issue (which has been short for YEARS). We already know several of the multiple errors that have led to the crash, and none of them are a problem with ATC. But you know that..
Not the PP to whom you're responding, but: An ATC in the DCA tower was handling both plane and helicopter traffic, earlier in the evening than was standard practice, apparently because another controller left work early. The two types of aircraft were supposed to be handled by separate ATCs until 9:30 p.m. But on that night, a solo ATC was handling both about an hour earlier than normal. This is according to reporting in the Post and many other outlets.
No one is saying yet whether this change caused or even affected the crash at all; that is for the investigators to decide. But it is foolish and extremely premature of you to insist at this time that ATC staffing and/or actions had nothing to do with events that night.
It can be done by two, but combining the roles to one person is also within the current safety standards of FAA. No safety protocols were broken
NP. Yet dozens of people were broken into pieces and scattered in the Potomac. Go to hell.
I’ve been avoiding this discussion and other real news out of a sense of powerlessness. We know exactly what can happen when government is deliberately hobbled from operating correctly. This is exactly the kind of cost when Republicans get what they want. This is exactly the goal ultimately of the Reagan Revolution and shrinking the dependent baby of government until you drown it in a bathtub. People die in hideously unnecessary ways. I hate every soul who voted for this. It’s your fault along with the fascistic drug-addicted sht stains running things now.
The crash was in no way Trump or his administration’s fault. You have a lot of misplaced anger
You don't know that. The helicopter was a critical part of this accident. What were they doing? Who were they transporting? Why were they flying in that place at that time where they hit the plane? Would they have been doing that if Trump had not won the election?
This. And this is why the VIP prior flight info is not publicly known. There’s a reason for it. What I wrote was g.d.’d accurate.
There’s a bigger picture, and it’s not a conspiracy. The current government is the crudely presented logical extension of the smaller better government the architects of Reaganism have been pushing for since 1980. God I wish this site encouraged people to see the forest some times. There is a cost to “lean staffing” and “efficiency.”