Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The fact that Hitler and other white supremacists have used the notion of a Jewish race as fuel for their fire does not obviate the fact that anthropologists and geneticists have established genetic strains that are distinct enough to establish an Ashkenazi (and potentially Sephardic) genetic group.

Genetic group is not a race, it can be mildly defined as ethnicity
Tay Sachs is found among other ethnicities too

My ancestry results also said I was 98%
That does not give me a race
It is more about what you identify yourself with. I am surprised so many take this seriously

Yes but Tay Sachs is much more common among Ashkenazi Jews. That’s why my husband and I had to have the Ashkenazi Jew genetic panel when I was pregnant.

Anonymous wrote:

The fact that Hitler and other white supremacists have used the notion of a Jewish race as fuel for their fire does not obviate the fact that anthropologists and geneticists have established genetic strains that are distinct enough to establish an Ashkenazi (and potentially Sephardic) genetic group.

Genetic group is not a race, it can be mildly defined as ethnicity
Tay Sachs is found among other ethnicities too

My ancestry results also said I was 98%
That does not give me a race
It is more about what you identify yourself with. I am surprised so many take this seriously

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since race is a social construct, I hardly think “Jews are a race” to be without question and undebatable.
Your statement doesn’t even make sense. Are you saying that the ashkenazi and Sephardim are separate racial groups? You realize that there are Jews who fit into neither category?
Are Muslims a race? Hindus?

Just stop.

I don’t know about Muslims or Hindus, but yes — Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews (as well as some others) are considered racial groups. I had the Ashkenazi Jew genetic screening panel done when I was pregnant. My 23 and me results say “50% Ashkenazi Jewish.”

You don’t know what you’re talking about.

I think the real answer is that:

- Of course there are a number of well-established Jewish ethnic communities, such as the Sephardic and Ashkenazic Jewish communities. Atheists who convert to Catholicism but have four Ashkenzic Jewish grandparents can have the Tay Sachs gene just as easily as an Ashkenazic Jewish rabbi.

- Whether "Judaism" as a whole is just a religion or also a race is a painful and controversial issue.

Some Jewish people will say that there is a Jewish race.

More will say that there isn't and get mad at anyone who suggests that there is such a thing. I think that there are a lot of Jewish people, me included, who instinctively feel as if calling Judaism, or even the Sephardic community or the Ashkenazic community, a race sounds terribly offensive, partly because Hitler made such a point of killing people who had even a little bit of Jewish ancestry, no matter what their religion was.

Maybe someone can talk about a "Jewish race" or "Ashan kenazic Jewish race" in a medical anthropology context, or something like that. But I think that anyone non-Jewish talking about "the Jewish race" in a political kind of context is likely to come off as alt-right, or alt-left.

The fact that Hitler and other white supremacists have used the notion of a Jewish race as fuel for their fire does not obviate the fact that anthropologists and geneticists have established genetic strains that are distinct enough to establish an Ashkenazi (and potentially Sephardic) genetic group.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since race is a social construct, I hardly think “Jews are a race” to be without question and undebatable.
Your statement doesn’t even make sense. Are you saying that the ashkenazi and Sephardim are separate racial groups? You realize that there are Jews who fit into neither category?
Are Muslims a race? Hindus?

Just stop.

I don’t know about Muslims or Hindus, but yes — Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews (as well as some others) are considered racial groups. I had the Ashkenazi Jew genetic screening panel done when I was pregnant. My 23 and me results say “50% Ashkenazi Jewish.”

You don’t know what you’re talking about.

I think the real answer is that:

- Of course there are a number of well-established Jewish ethnic communities, such as the Sephardic and Ashkenazic Jewish communities. Atheists who convert to Catholicism but have four Ashkenzic Jewish grandparents can have the Tay Sachs gene just as easily as an Ashkenazic Jewish rabbi.

- Whether "Judaism" as a whole is just a religion or also a race is a painful and controversial issue.

Some Jewish people will say that there is a Jewish race.

More will say that there isn't and get mad at anyone who suggests that there is such a thing. I think that there are a lot of Jewish people, me included, who instinctively feel as if calling Judaism, or even the Sephardic community or the Ashkenazic community, a race sounds terribly offensive, partly because Hitler made such a point of killing people who had even a little bit of Jewish ancestry, no matter what their religion was.

Maybe someone can talk about a "Jewish race" or "Ashan kenazic Jewish race" in a medical anthropology context, or something like that. But I think that anyone non-Jewish talking about "the Jewish race" in a political kind of context is likely to come off as alt-right, or alt-left.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would be happy to abdicate my right of return to that proto-fascist country.

- A Jew who hates Israel

+1
Me Too!

I would be happier if they embraced an egalitarian mind set and way of life. Just like I’d be happier if the US did too. Since I am still, barely, hopeful that there is a critical mass of people in both countries who believe all humans need to be treated fairly, I am not yet ready to abandon either. Scandinavia was perceived to be the pinnacle of egalitarianism until they showed there was limited tolerance for immigrants. I have yet to find a nation that can claim moral superiority when actually faced with diverse populations. So rather than smearing countries who tried, to some degree, and aren’t currently succeeding, I’d like to see folks stand up for improvements, rather than metaphorically spitting on whole groups of people. Yeah, lots of talk, but voting is at least a step.

Anonymous wrote:As hard as it may be, if there really were many Arab countries to go into, the people would not be living in refugee camps still today.
Sorry to say you have a very short sighted view. The Arabs will be your neighbors for the next 500 years and beyond.
Stop thinking about what will benefit you now and have the longer view point.
Palestinians are humans too and are not going to go anywhere. You can sow hatred so that your kids inheriit the trouble or think more long term.
America as your savior will most likely not be a permanent solution either

The majority of the residents of Jordan are Palestinians - but they do not have citizenship. Similarly, there are many Palestinian residents in Saudi Arabia, UAE, Turkey, and Brunei - but they aren't allowed to become citizens. This is, indeed, cynical usage of Palestinian "refugee" issue for political purposes. Which is not to say that Israel shouldn't be promoting a 2-state solution, but is to say that that all regional powers are going to have to step up and assist in dealing with the "refugee issue," including compensation for Jews exiled from their homes/murdered in Middle Eastern and North African countries. A long-term solution could involve compensation payments to Israel for mistreatment of Jews and Jewish property, and compensation by Israel to Palestinians for property confiscated.

As hard as it may be, if there really were many Arab countries to go into, the people would not be living in refugee camps still today.
Sorry to say you have a very short sighted view. The Arabs will be your neighbors for the next 500 years and beyond.
Stop thinking about what will benefit you now and have the longer view point.
Palestinians are humans too and are not going to go anywhere. You can sow hatred so that your kids inheriit the trouble or think more long term.
America as your savior will most likely not be a permanent solution either

Several family members were driven from their homes in Saana and Syria. Their property was confiscated. Some raped. Some saw their children and spouses murdered. All because they were Jews. They cannot go “home.” But, they are not refugees because the State of Israel took them in. Israel did not hold them in an artificial state of being a refugee for cynical political purposes. Unfortunately, most Arab nations give zero effs about Palestinians and simply use Israel as a boogeyman/shiny object to distract from their own copious sins.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are a lot of Muslims with roots in the MidEast and North Africa that have Sephardic and Ashkenazi DNA. Can they also claim to be Jewish? Not to get political (but it's slightly inevitable)... do they have a right to return? What percentage of DNA 'counts' for Muslims who have 'Jewish' DNA?

The right of return criteria is a grandparent who is Jewish, so yes they could have that right.

A Muslim with Ashkenazi or Sephardic roots would be ethnicity Jewish (as one of probably multiple ethnicities they have) and religiously Muslim (assuming they consider themselves religiously Muslim).

This right to return had always been weird to me. So the Arabs living there generation after generation who then were forced out have no right to return, but any Jew has a right to return? Why???

It’s an Israeli law. You really need to separate Israeli politics from Jewish identity.

- A Jew who hates Israel

Yes but how is it justified? It doesn’t make sense to me. Just trying to understand!

They have many arab countries to go to (and maybe one day soon a Palestinian state on the West Bank) while Israel is the only Jewish country, the only reliable refuge for Jews. (by the way "forced out" is an oversimplification of what happened in 1948)

I do think it would be fair though, if Jews who say that they "hate Israel" lose their right to move there - unfortunately there is no provisio in Israeli law for that, so if and when you find yourself persecuted as a Jew, you will still have the right to move there.

So it’s ok to force people out of their homes and confiscate their properties, and massacre many of them because they have other Arab countries to go to???

People left their homes in 1948 because there was a war. The only proven case of them being forced out of their homes was from a city that was on a crucial supply line, and they were pushed a few miles over to the nearest Arab army. Jews were also pushed out of their homes in 1948 in areas occupied by arab armies (which were far fewer, as the arab armies were less effective in that war).

All of that was 70 years ago. Not quite as far back as the massacre at wounded knee, but definitely the past. ultimately, while each side can keep their own narrative of the past, they will have to make peace anyway. If you do not wish to live in Israel because of the events of 1948, that is your choice. I can say that Israel in recent years has NOT been fascist in any meaningful sense. Though I worry about the consequences of not making peace, and the corrosive effects of the occupation of the West Bank on Israeli society, I would have no qualm abot moving to Israel today. If anything, I would like to move there to support the Israeli left, which I admire.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are a lot of Muslims with roots in the MidEast and North Africa that have Sephardic and Ashkenazi DNA. Can they also claim to be Jewish? Not to get political (but it's slightly inevitable)... do they have a right to return? What percentage of DNA 'counts' for Muslims who have 'Jewish' DNA?

The right of return criteria is a grandparent who is Jewish, so yes they could have that right.

A Muslim with Ashkenazi or Sephardic roots would be ethnicity Jewish (as one of probably multiple ethnicities they have) and religiously Muslim (assuming they consider themselves religiously Muslim).

The point is that no known ancestor may be Jewish, yet they are still at least 12.5% Ashkenazi or Sephardic, because some Muslims are also descended from the same groups.

The right of return law is based on identified grandparents, not on DNA testing. It is loosely based on two standards - 1 are you jewish in jewish in jewish law - you are if your mother was jewish, or if you have converted to Judaism (the question of conversion standards and the state is complex and controversial) 2. Would you have been killed by the Nazis? The actual law of return only says you need one Jewish grandparent, of any sex (or you can be a convert). It therefore includes many who would not qualify under Jewish law. The reasoning at the time was that anyone subject to persecution as a Jew during WW2 should qualify, and the Nazis did persecute anyone with one Jewish grandparent.

It has always been a question of religious and national identity not genetics. It has become more complex in recent years, as there are more people with some Jewish ancestry and NO connection to Jewish peoplehood who are interested in migrating to what is now a prosperous country. In the first decade of Israel's existence life there was not attractive enough to draw many people who were not religiously or culturally Jewish, or actively being persecuted. I could see modifying the law of return so that someone with Jewish ancestry, but no cultural connection to the Jewish people, and under no threat of persecution as a Jew, did not get automatic citizenship any more. But I doubt that change would satisfy those people who do not approve at all of the Law of Return.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are a lot of Muslims with roots in the MidEast and North Africa that have Sephardic and Ashkenazi DNA. Can they also claim to be Jewish? Not to get political (but it's slightly inevitable)... do they have a right to return? What percentage of DNA 'counts' for Muslims who have 'Jewish' DNA?

The right of return criteria is a grandparent who is Jewish, so yes they could have that right.

A Muslim with Ashkenazi or Sephardic roots would be ethnicity Jewish (as one of probably multiple ethnicities they have) and religiously Muslim (assuming they consider themselves religiously Muslim).

The point is that no known ancestor may be Jewish, yet they are still at least 12.5% Ashkenazi or Sephardic, because some Muslims are also descended from the same groups.

Anonymous wrote:I would be happy to abdicate my right of return to that proto-fascist country.

- A Jew who hates Israel

Are you abdicating your American citizenship, then? Because the Native Americans might have something to say to you ...

Israel is behaving abominably toward the Palestinians, but it is also true that it is being held to a standard no other country has been held to. It took me a long time to see this point, but in a world of wealthy countries who are bad actors in the world, it is not a coincidence that it was very, very easy to convince liberal Westerners, including Jews, to choose Israel as the one to condemn, and boycott, and pass resolutions against.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are a lot of Muslims with roots in the MidEast and North Africa that have Sephardic and Ashkenazi DNA. Can they also claim to be Jewish? Not to get political (but it's slightly inevitable)... do they have a right to return? What percentage of DNA 'counts' for Muslims who have 'Jewish' DNA?

The right of return criteria is a grandparent who is Jewish, so yes they could have that right.

A Muslim with Ashkenazi or Sephardic roots would be ethnicity Jewish (as one of probably multiple ethnicities they have) and religiously Muslim (assuming they consider themselves religiously Muslim).

This right to return had always been weird to me. So the Arabs living there generation after generation who then were forced out have no right to return, but any Jew has a right to return? Why???

It’s an Israeli law. You really need to separate Israeli politics from Jewish identity.

- A Jew who hates Israel

Yes but how is it justified? It doesn’t make sense to me. Just trying to understand!

They have many arab countries to go to (and maybe one day soon a Palestinian state on the West Bank) while Israel is the only Jewish country, the only reliable refuge for Jews. (by the way "forced out" is an oversimplification of what happened in 1948)

I do think it would be fair though, if Jews who say that they "hate Israel" lose their right to move there - unfortunately there is no provisio in Israeli law for that, so if and when you find yourself persecuted as a Jew, you will still have the right to move there.

So it’s ok to force people out of their homes and confiscate their properties, and massacre many of them because they have other Arab countries to go to???

Anonymous wrote:I would be happy to abdicate my right of return to that proto-fascist country.

- A Jew who hates Israel

+1
Me Too!

I would be happy to abdicate my right of return to that proto-fascist country.

- A Jew who hates Israel