Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of the women on this thread remind me of people I’ve met in real life who have no capacity for empathy or ability to understand other people’s experiences and minimize others’ experiences and then post on DCUM wondering why they don’t have any friends.

Some of the women on this thread remind me of the people I’ve met in real life you would rather win the martyr Olympics than take the steps to live the life they claim they want.

Both of those things are true. Some women are like both of those things. So maybe stop assuming you know which woman is like what when responding to a single sentence of what they said.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of the women on this thread remind me of people I’ve met in real life who have no capacity for empathy or ability to understand other people’s experiences and minimize others’ experiences and then post on DCUM wondering why they don’t have any friends.

Some of the women on this thread expect to be validated and coddled while doing dumb shit. I don't want to be friends with those women, and they shouldn't expect that service from a bunch of randoms on the internet. If you're frustrating yourself doing stupid stuff that doesn't matter, the kind thing to do is to point that out so you can stop.

I wouldn’t be friends with them either, but their husbands decided to marry them and are choosing to stay with them.
The least these guys can do is make a few Target runs and get some teacher gifts or whatever is important to their wives. Why the big fight?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel like people have been brainwashed by the whole mental load / weaponized incompetence narrative.

Not applicable in this particular case, because the OP states they are making equal economic contributions, but on average men have the “mental load” of making sure that the family has enough money because they are the primary breadwinners, or are expected to be. Certainly that is not fair, but it is undeniably a social expectation. Different men and different families handle that differently. But I can tell you that it can be quite a burden. And one that men are heavily conditioned not to complain about.

The difference is that there no NYT articles about men’s mental load, or about the weaponized incompetence that many (yes not all) men face when they suggest that their wives might take on a more income producing role. Not to mention the social unacceptability of men quitting the work force to be SAHD, and don’t kid yourself if you think that decision doesn’t raise eyebrows.

I’m quite happy about the lack of discussion of men’s problems — I find whining unattractive. I just wish there wasn’t the pile-on on men.

Almost every woman I know who complains about the mental load is expected to earn money too.

+1 It's very rarely a woman complaining about the mental load when her partner is a provider. But in two-income households, very rarely is the mental load split equitably. A lot of men expect women to be the homemaker without being the provider.

This is not a happy message but. Me downshifting my job (and forgoing a ton of income) truly saved my marriage.

I used to be just like OP. I think maybe my DH was worse, but this might be true for her too: not only did I have to assign him tasks, I then had to chase him to do what he committed to (“hey it’s December 17 and we still don’t have the tree you said you’d get?”).

We both made the same income because we met in the same grad school program then got essentially the same job.

I really tried to pare this stuff down to the bare minimum but no matter how deep I cut he’d want to cut even deeper. (“Do kids actually NEED a birthday party?”).

So I quit my job and picked up something easier for a fraction of the pay. Now I’m actually grateful for what he is ready and able to contribute to the household (money) and have the bandwidth to run a household the way I think it should be.

Obviously this was only after sorting through a LOT of resentment. But eventually I came to accept that I was not born in an era where truly equal marriages are the default, that I wanted to keep my family together, and that I do love this birthday-denying weirdo.

OP I wish you luck in figuring it out. It is not easy.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of the women on this thread remind me of people I’ve met in real life who have no capacity for empathy or ability to understand other people’s experiences and minimize others’ experiences and then post on DCUM wondering why they don’t have any friends.

Some of the women on this thread remind me of the people I’ve met in real life you would rather win the martyr Olympics than take the steps to live the life they claim they want.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:If you don't have a partner in your husband and it is breaking you, divorce. Seriously.

It's a really good vibe check. Are you willing to do this alone? If so, ditch the not-partner and do it alone. Otherwise, figure out what's so upsetting about it and shift your attitude. Maybe you need to cut back, or maybe you're tired and overreacting. Or maybe you need to ask for help you haven't articulated needing, instead of assuming your partner knows. Do what you can to adjust your circumstances, then adjust your perception and attitude about them.

Surely you recognize that getting a divorce isn't as simple as deciding you are willing to do everything alone or you're not. Trying to manage your own feelings while simultaneously determining what's in the best interests of your children is where it is tough.

She is providing OP with options and perspective. This is good for OP's mental well being.

Those options are acting like it's just OP and her husband in their marriage. It's not. That would be easy.

Where are y'all getting this expectation that raising a child should be easy? That you're entitled to ease?

Talk about privilege...

Engaging with you is like trying to have a conversation with a cat.

I think that poster had the best under appreciated comment of the thread.

If you think the solution is so simple then why isn't it working? Or you're saying no women have tried those suggestions?

Anonymous wrote:Some of the women on this thread remind me of people I’ve met in real life who have no capacity for empathy or ability to understand other people’s experiences and minimize others’ experiences and then post on DCUM wondering why they don’t have any friends.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I get it OP. We got an email about the "class gift" for one of my kids teachers earlier this week and they haven't sent the money yet because last week I did the money for the PTA fund, the money for the fund to give bonuses to specials teachers, I write thank you cards for each of my kids' EC coaches, and I ordered photo books for both sets of grandparents featuring highlights from their visits with our kids this year.

DH also got the class gift email. He also has Venmo.

If I asked him to do it, he would. He'd also be bewildered -- why ask when it's just a minute in my phone to do it? But it's not really about this one task. So instead i'm sitting on it and feeling resentful, and in the back of my head I'm thinking how the class mom is likely annoyed at me and others who haven't contributed yet, and that's fair because she's going above and beyond in organizing, and yet no one is annoyed with my husband. Except me.

The difference in expectations for moms and dads is vast.

Self imposed expectations seem to be at least part of the issue in a lot of these situations.

Just relax, take a deep breath.

None of the stuff you mentioned is critical. If you are doing things like writing thank you cards and making photo albums it should be done out of love. If you don’t love doing it, if it makes u cranky then just stop. I haven’t written thank you notes to any of my kids coaches and it seems fine.

It is done out of genuine appreciation for my kids' teachers and coaches, and the photo albums are done out of love for my parents and ILs and a desire to support the connection they have to our kids. Donating to school funds is an obligation but I do think it matters -- we can afford to donate something, and I have been in fundraising positions before and know freeloaders are a challenge, so I try to be conscientious towards others when they are fundraising in ways that benefit me and my family.

I'm also fine donating to the fund for the class gift. I'm grateful to the class mom for sorting that out and much prefer a class gift to the awkwardness of some people giving gifts and others not and it just not being clear what is appropriate.

I don't resent the tasks. Also, if you asked my husband if we should do any or all of these things, he'd say yes. He'd say they are important ways to contribute to our community and that the photo books for grandparents are appreciated more than other gifts we give them. But he will never, ever take the initiative to do any of these things. Worse than that, he'd claim it is beyond him. He would never write thank you notes because he has terrible handwriting. He won't donate to the different funds because he will say he has no idea how much to give or what's appropriate and he'd want me to decide. He'd claim that organizing photos for the photo books and loading them into the program to get them printed is just beyond him.

Are these things essential parts of life? No, of course not. If we were struggling for money or overwhelmed with other life events, I wouldn't do any of them. But we're not. "We" can do them. And when "we" do these things, it generates good will in our family and community, it gives my kids a sense of pride and belonging when they are aware of these things, it helps the teachers and coaches and grandparents in our lives feel appreciated and recognized. These are good things. But if I don't do them, they won't happen.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of the women on this thread remind me of people I’ve met in real life who have no capacity for empathy or ability to understand other people’s experiences and minimize others’ experiences and then post on DCUM wondering why they don’t have any friends.

Some of the women on this thread expect to be validated and coddled while doing dumb shit. I don't want to be friends with those women, and they shouldn't expect that service from a bunch of randoms on the internet. If you're frustrating yourself doing stupid stuff that doesn't matter, the kind thing to do is to point that out so you can stop.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you don't have a partner in your husband and it is breaking you, divorce. Seriously.

It's a really good vibe check. Are you willing to do this alone? If so, ditch the not-partner and do it alone. Otherwise, figure out what's so upsetting about it and shift your attitude. Maybe you need to cut back, or maybe you're tired and overreacting. Or maybe you need to ask for help you haven't articulated needing, instead of assuming your partner knows. Do what you can to adjust your circumstances, then adjust your perception and attitude about them.

Surely you recognize that getting a divorce isn't as simple as deciding you are willing to do everything alone or you're not. Trying to manage your own feelings while simultaneously determining what's in the best interests of your children is where it is tough.

She is providing OP with options and perspective. This is good for OP's mental well being.

Those options are acting like it's just OP and her husband in their marriage. It's not. That would be easy.

Where are y'all getting this expectation that raising a child should be easy? That you're entitled to ease?

Talk about privilege...

Engaging with you is like trying to have a conversation with a cat.

I think that poster had the best under appreciated comment of the thread.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of the women on this thread remind me of people I’ve met in real life who have no capacity for empathy or ability to understand other people’s experiences and minimize others’ experiences and then post on DCUM wondering why they don’t have any friends.

Some of the women on this thread remind me of the people I’ve met in real life you would rather win the martyr Olympics than take the steps to live the life they claim they want.

Anonymous wrote:Some of the women on this thread remind me of people I’ve met in real life who have no capacity for empathy or ability to understand other people’s experiences and minimize others’ experiences and then post on DCUM wondering why they don’t have any friends.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you don't have a partner in your husband and it is breaking you, divorce. Seriously.

It's a really good vibe check. Are you willing to do this alone? If so, ditch the not-partner and do it alone. Otherwise, figure out what's so upsetting about it and shift your attitude. Maybe you need to cut back, or maybe you're tired and overreacting. Or maybe you need to ask for help you haven't articulated needing, instead of assuming your partner knows. Do what you can to adjust your circumstances, then adjust your perception and attitude about them.

Surely you recognize that getting a divorce isn't as simple as deciding you are willing to do everything alone or you're not. Trying to manage your own feelings while simultaneously determining what's in the best interests of your children is where it is tough.

She is providing OP with options and perspective. This is good for OP's mental well being.

Those options are acting like it's just OP and her husband in their marriage. It's not. That would be easy.

Where are y'all getting this expectation that raising a child should be easy? That you're entitled to ease?

Talk about privilege...

Engaging with you is like trying to have a conversation with a cat.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I get it OP. We got an email about the "class gift" for one of my kids teachers earlier this week and they haven't sent the money yet because last week I did the money for the PTA fund, the money for the fund to give bonuses to specials teachers, I write thank you cards for each of my kids' EC coaches, and I ordered photo books for both sets of grandparents featuring highlights from their visits with our kids this year.

DH also got the class gift email. He also has Venmo.

If I asked him to do it, he would. He'd also be bewildered -- why ask when it's just a minute in my phone to do it? But it's not really about this one task. So instead i'm sitting on it and feeling resentful, and in the back of my head I'm thinking how the class mom is likely annoyed at me and others who haven't contributed yet, and that's fair because she's going above and beyond in organizing, and yet no one is annoyed with my husband. Except me.

The difference in expectations for moms and dads is vast.

He’s probably bewildered that you think any of that BS is actually worth doing, let alone delegating.

I’m not writing thank you notes to teachers (I don’t give them gifts either). I don’t make photo albums for grandparents. If my DH felt any of that was important he’s free to take the lead on that - otherwise it’s not getting done.

This seems like the gender reverse of the sexless marriage threads.

People talking about what they want from their spouses and others saying that no one has literally died from not doing it.

Relationships with coaches don’t deteriorate because you don’t write thank you notes.

Someone earlier said some people are addicted to resentment - that was so true.

Relationships deteriorate because people only do what they think is important and don’t care about what their spouse wants.

Sorry. I saw that you wrote “relationships with coaches.”
Maybe you weee responding to the wrong person? Unless you want your spouse to have sex with your kids coaches

You missed the point. If you don’t have sex with your spouse, your relationship will deteriorate. If the family doesn’t send thank you notes to a coach, the relationship with the coach doesn’t deteriorate. So why does one person get to decide that this is a family activity which requires full adult participation? Are you saying your marriage will deteriorate because one spouse doesn’t want to participate in time consuming activities that matter because the other spouse can’t prioritize?

Said like someone who never thanks people for things.

I would argue that especially in a long relationship, expressing gratitude and acknowledgment for the other person is more important than sex. Early on the reverse might be true, but I'm 20 years into my relationship with my spouse and if we don't have sex for a month or something, I do not think it has any impact on our relationship at all (and we've gone that long and longer at various points due to things like injuries, mental health, grief, etc.).

Whereas expressing gratitude is essential to all of my relationships, including my marriage. We virtually never go a single day without thanking each other for something, whether it's unloading the dishwasher or listening to the other person vent about work or, yes, taking the time for physical intimacy.

Likewise, I think thanking the other adults in my kids' lives for their efforts is essential to our relationship -- I want those adults to know that I realize their job is not simple or easy and I see the benefits it has for my kids. I think that's really important and that if you never take the time to thank such people, you are undermining those relationships. Maybe that relationship doesn't matter to you, I sense it does not. But failing to thank them is absolutely harming the relationship, it's just you don't care.

Lots of assumptions here, particularly that I don’t thank people. Weird shade from a woman who is married to man who thinks thanking people is beyond him. Sounds like you are a problematic woman since you have shade for me but not your helpless husband.

She said that her husband doesn’t go a day without thanking her for something.
You said that thanking someone is a “time consuming activity that doesn’t matter.”

Miss Multiparagraph said earlier that her husband thinks they should do all of these things but they are beyond him. So he says thank you to the poster but doesn’t send money to the class gift or thank the coach.

Writing thank you notes for your kids coach doesn’t matter over harmony in your marriage, no.

Keep up with your make work, though.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:
Well, single mom, since you have no idea how to keep a marriage together and working, you aren’t really a good person to comment on relationship dynamics, are you?

How do you know the reasons for being single?

Anonymous wrote: I’m glad that you want to do everything alone. Some of us want to find a way to raise our children with involved partners.

Most of the responses on these threads are descriptions of a husband completely incapable of involvement, and assurances they will never be capable of involvement. In many cases, they are abusive and should not be around children. These women arguably should be single, and probably would be if given the opportunity to be safe with their children from a husband who would harm them with abuse or neglect during and after a divorce.

But yes to the minority of respondents who have husbands who can be involved, they should be and it's worth fighting for.

That's irrelevant. The point is that someone who isn't married isn't a good person to comment on the dynamics of a marriage. I don't play lacrosse so I shouldn't opine on how to do so. I do play water polo, so I can speak competently on that topic. It's not rocket science. (Which I don't know about and shouldn't give my opinion on).

Sounds like some of you want to have it both ways - you want to tell us marriage dynamics are so important while telling us you are married to a useless AH.

I'm actually not married to a useless AH. Perhaps I am competent enough to give marriage advice on this topic since my husband and I have worked jointly to create an equitable household with which we are both happy.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I get it OP. We got an email about the "class gift" for one of my kids teachers earlier this week and they haven't sent the money yet because last week I did the money for the PTA fund, the money for the fund to give bonuses to specials teachers, I write thank you cards for each of my kids' EC coaches, and I ordered photo books for both sets of grandparents featuring highlights from their visits with our kids this year.

DH also got the class gift email. He also has Venmo.

If I asked him to do it, he would. He'd also be bewildered -- why ask when it's just a minute in my phone to do it? But it's not really about this one task. So instead i'm sitting on it and feeling resentful, and in the back of my head I'm thinking how the class mom is likely annoyed at me and others who haven't contributed yet, and that's fair because she's going above and beyond in organizing, and yet no one is annoyed with my husband. Except me.

The difference in expectations for moms and dads is vast.

He’s probably bewildered that you think any of that BS is actually worth doing, let alone delegating.

I’m not writing thank you notes to teachers (I don’t give them gifts either). I don’t make photo albums for grandparents. If my DH felt any of that was important he’s free to take the lead on that - otherwise it’s not getting done.

This seems like the gender reverse of the sexless marriage threads.

People talking about what they want from their spouses and others saying that no one has literally died from not doing it.

Relationships with coaches don’t deteriorate because you don’t write thank you notes.

Someone earlier said some people are addicted to resentment - that was so true.

Relationships deteriorate because people only do what they think is important and don’t care about what their spouse wants.

Sorry. I saw that you wrote “relationships with coaches.”
Maybe you weee responding to the wrong person? Unless you want your spouse to have sex with your kids coaches

You missed the point. If you don’t have sex with your spouse, your relationship will deteriorate. If the family doesn’t send thank you notes to a coach, the relationship with the coach doesn’t deteriorate. So why does one person get to decide that this is a family activity which requires full adult participation? Are you saying your marriage will deteriorate because one spouse doesn’t want to participate in time consuming activities that matter because the other spouse can’t prioritize?

Said like someone who never thanks people for things.

I would argue that especially in a long relationship, expressing gratitude and acknowledgment for the other person is more important than sex. Early on the reverse might be true, but I'm 20 years into my relationship with my spouse and if we don't have sex for a month or something, I do not think it has any impact on our relationship at all (and we've gone that long and longer at various points due to things like injuries, mental health, grief, etc.).

Whereas expressing gratitude is essential to all of my relationships, including my marriage. We virtually never go a single day without thanking each other for something, whether it's unloading the dishwasher or listening to the other person vent about work or, yes, taking the time for physical intimacy.

Likewise, I think thanking the other adults in my kids' lives for their efforts is essential to our relationship -- I want those adults to know that I realize their job is not simple or easy and I see the benefits it has for my kids. I think that's really important and that if you never take the time to thank such people, you are undermining those relationships. Maybe that relationship doesn't matter to you, I sense it does not. But failing to thank them is absolutely harming the relationship, it's just you don't care.

Lots of assumptions here, particularly that I don’t thank people. Weird shade from a woman who is married to man who thinks thanking people is beyond him. Sounds like you are a problematic woman since you have shade for me but not your helpless husband.

She said that her husband doesn’t go a day without thanking her for something.
You said that thanking someone is a “time consuming activity that doesn’t matter.”