Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bloomberg New analysis of more than 1,500 4-year colleges show the return on investment of private elite colleges outside of the 8 Ivies is no better than far-less selective colleges.

In fact, the hidden return on so-called "Hidden Ivies"- a list of 63 top private colleges--is about 49% less than the 8 official Ivies and 9% less than public flagships.

10-years out a private elite college is worth about $135,000 compared to $265,000 at one of the 8 Ivies.

At more than 140 public institutions, the majority of Applicants are able to return more than $135,00 for the typical student after 10 years. And public flagships have typical 10-year ROI of $148,000.

I laughed when I read this. Been in consulting for too long not to recognize when someone is playing games with numbers to create a narrative. I am intrigued. What constitutes these non-Ivy private elite colleges? Stanford? Duke? MIT? Caltech? Are you saying that the Cornell or Brown or Columbia alum is at an advantage over a Stanford alum? Somehow I suspect not.

There is no need to dwell on the rest of your post. I will say two thing. First, I don't think anyone refutes the more elite the college, the higher the average aptitude and the greater the average long term financial outcome (as the relationship between aptitude and success is clear). Second, the elite colleges (whoever they are) do not have the monopoly on high aptitude students. Many go to "lesser" schools for various reasons. Is the long term outcome, as measured by financial success, worse for these high aptitude kids who didn't get into Harvard despite having stats exactly the same as the typical Harvard admit? Nothing to suggest this at all. People who talk about average student at X school versus average student at Harvard are missing the point entirely. Repeatedly. Over and over again.

Believe what you want to believe. There are many routes to success in life. An elite diploma is only one of them and even then it is only a tool, not the means. Plenty of kids go to elite colleges and go nowhere. Plenty of kids go to diploma mills and end up leaders.

Your are correct that not all high aptitude students go to elite colleges. But there is a difference in outcomes. This study examined waitlisted students at Ivy League schools and compared the outcome of students who ended up being accepted versus students who ended up attending the top state flagship schools instead. The study found a measurable difference in outcomes.

Of course, any individual student might not experience said difference. But on average, there is a difference.

https://opportunityinsights.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/CollegeAdmissions_Paper.pdf

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It doesn’t matter.

Maybe if you’re going for a Wall Street job it will be easier. Or top-tier consulting. That’s about it.

If you want to go to law school or medical school go to the easiest school we’re getting the best grades as possible.

I say this with two kids at T15.

This is solid advice for law school. Look at the list of schools from admitted students that Harvard Law shares. Seeing the variety of schools was an eye opener for me.

From the Harvard website:

The following is a list of the 146 undergraduate institutions represented by the 1L class in the J.D. program at HLS for the 2024–2025 school year.

American University

American University of Armenia

Amherst College

Arizona State University

Auburn University

Augustana University

Barnard College

Bates College

Baylor University

Boston College

Boston University

...
Florida Agricultural and Mechanical University

Fordham University – Rose Hill

Fordham University – Lincoln Center

Fordham University – Gabelli School of Business

George Washington University

Georgetown University

Georgia Institute of Technology

Grand Valley State University

Grinnell College

Hamilton College

Hampden-Sydney College

Harvard College

Hillsdale College

These lists are useless because law schools admit like 60%-70% from top 20 schools (and a ton from their own undergrad) and then 1 from each of like 100 schools.

+ 1

Went to Harvard Law - there were like 10+ kids from Yale, Harvard, Princeton EACH in my class! It was eye-opening.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It doesn’t matter.

Maybe if you’re going for a Wall Street job it will be easier. Or top-tier consulting. That’s about it.

If you want to go to law school or medical school go to the easiest school we’re getting the best grades as possible.

I say this with two kids at T15.

This is solid advice for law school. Look at the list of schools from admitted students that Harvard Law shares. Seeing the variety of schools was an eye opener for me.

From the Harvard website:

The following is a list of the 146 undergraduate institutions represented by the 1L class in the J.D. program at HLS for the 2024–2025 school year.

American University

American University of Armenia

Amherst College

Arizona State University

Auburn University

Augustana University

Barnard College

Bates College

Baylor University

Boston College

Boston University

...
Florida Agricultural and Mechanical University

Fordham University – Rose Hill

Fordham University – Lincoln Center

Fordham University – Gabelli School of Business

George Washington University

Georgetown University

Georgia Institute of Technology

Grand Valley State University

Grinnell College

Hamilton College

Hampden-Sydney College

Harvard College

Hillsdale College

These lists are useless because law schools admit like 60%-70% from top 20 schools (and a ton from their own undergrad) and then 1 from each of like 100 schools.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It doesn’t matter.

Maybe if you’re going for a Wall Street job it will be easier. Or top-tier consulting. That’s about it.

If you want to go to law school or medical school go to the easiest school we’re getting the best grades as possible.

I say this with two kids at T15.

This is solid advice for law school. Look at the list of schools from admitted students that Harvard Law shares. Seeing the variety of schools was an eye opener for me.

From the Harvard website:

The following is a list of the 146 undergraduate institutions represented by the 1L class in the J.D. program at HLS for the 2024–2025 school year.

American University

American University of Armenia

Amherst College

Arizona State University

Auburn University

Augustana University

Barnard College

Bates College

Baylor University

Boston College

Boston University

...
Florida Agricultural and Mechanical University

Fordham University – Rose Hill

Fordham University – Lincoln Center

Fordham University – Gabelli School of Business

George Washington University

Georgetown University

Georgia Institute of Technology

Grand Valley State University

Grinnell College

Hamilton College

Hampden-Sydney College

Harvard College

Hillsdale College

Anonymous wrote:It doesn’t matter.

Maybe if you’re going for a Wall Street job it will be easier. Or top-tier consulting. That’s about it.

If you want to go to law school or medical school go to the easiest school we’re getting the best grades as possible.

I say this with two kids at T15.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not a troll. I’m the parent of a HS sophomore who is killing themselves excelling in school and participating in extracurriculars to be competitive for T20.

At the same time, I see parents on here posting how their kid went to Cornell and ended up in the same place as someone who went to Pitt or another similarly ranked school.

At the same time, in my job I work alongside people who have gone to ivies and schools I’ve never heard of. I went to Michigan, btw.

My sister did her undergraduate at Oxford, stayed in the UK and is now partner at a well respected consulting firm alongside other partners that went to no name schools from India.

So seeing the stress my kid goes through, I am honestly asking what is the point of a Yale or Princeton if they take you to the same place that a school like Rutgers and Radford can take you?!

OP, what you and others seem to be upset about is that the rules of the game have changed. Our kids compete in a global market place. A few decades ago, no way or very unlikely someone with a degree from a no name Indian university would be in the same room with an Oxbridge or Ivy grad because there were barriers in place - immigration laws, pedigree mattered more and, of course, racism played a part. Today, a lot of these barriers are down. Companies can bring in foreign employees relatively easily, companies recruit more widely and pedigree is not as important, etc. as a result, many more Indian/Pakistani/whatever kids end up in the same room with American kids from top colleges. I say this as the executive of a global professional services firm. I have seen the shift and it’s a pronounced one. And you know what companies like mine have found out? That often the Indian kid from the no name school is just as smart as the Stanford kid but is hungrier and willing to work harder. So it’s not just that top talent is not concentrated at top schools, top talent is everywhere and companies face few barriers in sourcing it. As I said, today our kids are competing in a global labour market.

As someone in IT. The foreign Indian/Paki workers (school outside the US) have been absolutely awful. We tread with caution there.

Anonymous wrote:Bloomberg New analysis of more than 1,500 4-year colleges show the return on investment of private elite colleges outside of the 8 Ivies is no better than far-less selective colleges.

In fact, the hidden return on so-called "Hidden Ivies"- a list of 63 top private colleges--is about 49% less than the 8 official Ivies and 9% less than public flagships.

10-years out a private elite college is worth about $135,000 compared to $265,000 at one of the 8 Ivies.

At more than 140 public institutions, the majority of Applicants are able to return more than $135,00 for the typical student after 10 years. And public flagships have typical 10-year ROI of $148,000.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not a troll. I’m the parent of a HS sophomore who is killing themselves excelling in school and participating in extracurriculars to be competitive for T20.

At the same time, I see parents on here posting how their kid went to Cornell and ended up in the same place as someone who went to Pitt or another similarly ranked school.

At the same time, in my job I work alongside people who have gone to ivies and schools I’ve never heard of. I went to Michigan, btw.

My sister did her undergraduate at Oxford, stayed in the UK and is now partner at a well respected consulting firm alongside other partners that went to no name schools from India.

So seeing the stress my kid goes through, I am honestly asking what is the point of a Yale or Princeton if they take you to the same place that a school like Rutgers and Radford can take you?!

OP, what you and others seem to be upset about is that the rules of the game have changed. Our kids compete in a global market place. A few decades ago, no way or very unlikely someone with a degree from a no name Indian university would be in the same room with an Oxbridge or Ivy grad because there were barriers in place - immigration laws, pedigree mattered more and, of course, racism played a part. Today, a lot of these barriers are down. Companies can bring in foreign employees relatively easily, companies recruit more widely and pedigree is not as important, etc. as a result, many more Indian/Pakistani/whatever kids end up in the same room with American kids from top colleges. I say this as the executive of a global professional services firm. I have seen the shift and it’s a pronounced one. And you know what companies like mine have found out? That often the Indian kid from the no name school is just as smart as the Stanford kid but is hungrier and willing to work harder. So it’s not just that top talent is not concentrated at top schools, top talent is everywhere and companies face few barriers in sourcing it. As I said, today our kids are competing in a global labour market.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not a troll. I’m the parent of a HS sophomore who is killing themselves excelling in school and participating in extracurriculars to be competitive for T20.

At the same time, I see parents on here posting how their kid went to Cornell and ended up in the same place as someone who went to Pitt or another similarly ranked school.

At the same time, in my job I work alongside people who have gone to ivies and schools I’ve never heard of. I went to Michigan, btw.

My sister did her undergraduate at Oxford, stayed in the UK and is now partner at a well respected consulting firm alongside other partners that went to no name schools from India.

So seeing the stress my kid goes through, I am honestly asking what is the point of a Yale or Princeton if they take you to the same place that a school like Rutgers and Radford can take you?!

OP, what you and others seem to be upset about is that the rules of the game have changed. Our kids compete in a global market place. A few decades ago, no way or very unlikely someone with a degree from a no name Indian university would be in the same room with an Oxbridge or Ivy grad because there were barriers in place - immigration laws, pedigree mattered more and, of course, racism played a part. Today, a lot of these barriers are down. Companies can bring in foreign employees relatively easily, companies recruit more widely and pedigree is not as important, etc. as a result, many more Indian/Pakistani/whatever kids end up in the same room with American kids from top colleges. I say this as the executive of a global professional services firm. I have seen the shift and it’s a pronounced one. And you know what companies like mine have found out? That often the Indian kid from the no name school is just as smart as the Stanford kid but is hungrier and willing to work harder. So it’s not just that top talent is not concentrated at top schools, top talent is everywhere and companies face few barriers in sourcing it. As I said, today our kids are competing in a global labour market.

Anonymous wrote:Yes, get a great education, but YOU MUST marry well into the right family. And your children and grandkids will do the same. Keep generation wealth going. That is the key.

Learn to save. Invest.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not a troll. I’m the parent of a HS sophomore who is killing themselves excelling in school and participating in extracurriculars to be competitive for T20.

At the same time, I see parents on here posting how their kid went to Cornell and ended up in the same place as someone who went to Pitt or another similarly ranked school.

At the same time, in my job I work alongside people who have gone to ivies and schools I’ve never heard of. I went to Michigan, btw.

My sister did her undergraduate at Oxford, stayed in the UK and is now partner at a well respected consulting firm alongside other partners that went to no name schools from India.

So seeing the stress my kid goes through, I am honestly asking what is the point of a Yale or Princeton if they take you to the same place that a school like Rutgers and Radford can take you?!

OP, what you and others seem to be upset about is that the rules of the game have changed. Our kids compete in a global market place. A few decades ago, no way or very unlikely someone with a degree from a no name Indian university would be in the same room with an Oxbridge or Ivy grad because there were barriers in place - immigration laws, pedigree mattered more and, of course, racism played a part. Today, a lot of these barriers are down. Companies can bring in foreign employees relatively easily, companies recruit more widely and pedigree is not as important, etc. as a result, many more Indian/Pakistani/whatever kids end up in the same room with American kids from top colleges. I say this as the executive of a global professional services firm. I have seen the shift and it’s a pronounced one. And you know what companies like mine have found out? That often the Indian kid from the no name school is just as smart as the Stanford kid but is hungrier and willing to work harder. So it’s not just that top talent is not concentrated at top schools, top talent is everywhere and companies face few barriers in sourcing it. As I said, today our kids are competing in a global labour market.

Anonymous wrote:I am not a troll. I’m the parent of a HS sophomore who is killing themselves excelling in school and participating in extracurriculars to be competitive for T20.

At the same time, I see parents on here posting how their kid went to Cornell and ended up in the same place as someone who went to Pitt or another similarly ranked school.

At the same time, in my job I work alongside people who have gone to ivies and schools I’ve never heard of. I went to Michigan, btw.

My sister did her undergraduate at Oxford, stayed in the UK and is now partner at a well respected consulting firm alongside other partners that went to no name schools from India.

So seeing the stress my kid goes through, I am honestly asking what is the point of a Yale or Princeton if they take you to the same place that a school like Rutgers and Radford can take you?!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bloomberg New analysis of more than 1,500 4-year colleges show the return on investment of private elite colleges outside of the 8 Ivies is no better than far-less selective colleges.

In fact, the hidden return on so-called "Hidden Ivies"- a list of 63 top private colleges--is about 49% less than the 8 official Ivies and 9% less than public flagships.

10-years out a private elite college is worth about $135,000 compared to $265,000 at one of the 8 Ivies.

At more than 140 public institutions, the majority of Applicants are able to return more than $135,00 for the typical student after 10 years. And public flagships have typical 10-year ROI of $148,000.

I laughed when I read this. Been in consulting for too long not to recognize when someone is playing games with numbers to create a narrative. I am intrigued. What constitutes these non-Ivy private elite colleges? Stanford? Duke? MIT? Caltech? Are you saying that the Cornell or Brown or Columbia alum is at an advantage over a Stanford alum? Somehow I suspect not.

There is no need to dwell on the rest of your post. I will say two thing. First, I don't think anyone refutes the more elite the college, the higher the average aptitude and the greater the average long term financial outcome (as the relationship between aptitude and success is clear). Second, the elite colleges (whoever they are) do not have the monopoly on high aptitude students. Many go to "lesser" schools for various reasons. Is the long term outcome, as measured by financial success, worse for these high aptitude kids who didn't get into Harvard despite having stats exactly the same as the typical Harvard admit? Nothing to suggest this at all. People who talk about average student at X school versus average student at Harvard are missing the point entirely. Repeatedly. Over and over again.

Believe what you want to believe. There are many routes to success in life. An elite diploma is only one of them and even then it is only a tool, not the means. Plenty of kids go to elite colleges and go nowhere. Plenty of kids go to diploma mills and end up leaders.

Your are correct that not all high aptitude students go to elite colleges. But there is a difference in outcomes. This study examined waitlisted students at Ivy League schools and compared the outcome of students who ended up being accepted versus students who ended up attending the top state flagship schools instead. The study found a measurable difference in outcomes.

Of course, any individual student might not experience said difference. But on average, there is a difference.

https://opportunityinsights.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/CollegeAdmissions_Paper.pdf

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bloomberg New analysis of more than 1,500 4-year colleges show the return on investment of private elite colleges outside of the 8 Ivies is no better than far-less selective colleges.

In fact, the hidden return on so-called "Hidden Ivies"- a list of 63 top private colleges--is about 49% less than the 8 official Ivies and 9% less than public flagships.

10-years out a private elite college is worth about $135,000 compared to $265,000 at one of the 8 Ivies.

At more than 140 public institutions, the majority of Applicants are able to return more than $135,00 for the typical student after 10 years. And public flagships have typical 10-year ROI of $148,000.

I laughed when I read this. Been in consulting for too long not to recognize when someone is playing games with numbers to create a narrative. I am intrigued. What constitutes these non-Ivy private elite colleges? Stanford? Duke? MIT? Caltech? Are you saying that the Cornell or Brown or Columbia alum is at an advantage over a Stanford alum? Somehow I suspect not.

There is no need to dwell on the rest of your post. I will say two thing. First, I don't think anyone refutes the more elite the college, the higher the average aptitude and the greater the average long term financial outcome (as the relationship between aptitude and success is clear). Second, the elite colleges (whoever they are) do not have the monopoly on high aptitude students. Many go to "lesser" schools for various reasons. Is the long term outcome, as measured by financial success, worse for these high aptitude kids who didn't get into Harvard despite having stats exactly the same as the typical Harvard admit? Nothing to suggest this at all. People who talk about average student at X school versus average student at Harvard are missing the point entirely. Repeatedly. Over and over again.

Believe what you want to believe. There are many routes to success in life. An elite diploma is only one of them and even then it is only a tool, not the means. Plenty of kids go to elite colleges and go nowhere. Plenty of kids go to diploma mills and end up leaders.

Your are correct that not all high aptitude students go to elite colleges. But there is a difference in outcomes. This study examined waitlisted students at Ivy League schools and compared the outcome of students who ended up being accepted versus students who ended up attending the top state flagship schools instead. The study found a measurable difference in outcomes.

Of course, any individual student might not experience said difference. But on average, there is a difference.

https://opportunityinsights.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/CollegeAdmissions_Paper.pdf