Anonymous
02/21/2025 14:25
Subject: Parents of small children - how are you managing RTO?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:^ And I’m not saying only Feds do this. I know people in remote jobs in private industry too
The funny thing is that outside of the early stage of the pandemic, I only know one person IRL that kept a baby home while working (a contractor) and even she admitted it was only possible because her mom/MIL helped out for 2-3 days per week (and once they were 18mo the kid went to daycare). I definitely know quite a few parents who dropped or scaled back on before/aftercare, some of whom are scrambling becasue some days are full. But are there really that many parents still WFH and caring for babies/toddlers fulltime? How is that even functional....
I don't know anyone who has done it. It isn't functional.
I completely agree. I don't know a single work-from-home parent who can manage that. Everyone I know was traumatized after COVID, trying to balance work with having their children at home. It's simply not sustainable. However, this reality doesn't align with the narrative of those who oppose remote work. They want to believe that everyone working from home is somehow gaming the system, which reinforces their argument that no one is productive outside of the office. It's amusing because just because someone is physically present in the office doesn’t guarantee productivity either. We had one woman who spent most of her time online shopping and another guy who could talk about sports for hours. There are always a few bad apples, no matter where you are.
Yeah you can stop the schtick. Aside from every normal person recognizing inefficiencies literally everywhere, there’s been lots of studies on this 5 years in and people are not as productive working from home. Save your gaslighting, you’re just wrong. Perhaps there’s another solution for working parents and productive work environments, but full time WFH isn’t it and demanding it is when the whole world can see with their own eyes is not helping.
Where’s the data?
Some of the newer studies are included below. Fully remote work in particular shows reductions in productivity. There are many additional current articles (not included) that discuss the merits and challenges of telework in light of the studies. The previous administration also obviously had acknowledged challenges with the situation, and attempted to convey their request for more in-office time with urgency.
Working From Home Leads to Decreased Productivity, Research Suggests
"The results of the study, pointing to a 10%-20% decrease in productivity for fully remote workers, have brought forth complex implications for employers, employees, and policymakers."
https://www.forbes.com/sites/benjaminlaker/2023/08/02/working-from-home-leads-to-decreased-productivity-research-suggests/
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1kqbngD8pemqxAkZmWCOQ32Yk6PXK9eVA/view
https://www.npr.org/2023/08/04/1192246138/the-evidence-on-remote-work-is-changing
Americans are becoming less productive, and that's a risk to the economy
“Productivity is down 4.1% on an annualized basis, the biggest decline since the government started keeping track of the number back in 1948. Since then, U.S. productivity had been on a steady upward slope. Until now.”
https://www.npr.org/2022/10/07/1126967875/quiet-quitting-productivity-workers-ennui-working-jobs
American worker productivity is declining at the fastest rate in 75 years—and it could see CEOs go to war against WFH
“The U.S. has now had five consecutive quarters of year-over-year declines in productivity, according to research from EY-Parthenon, using data from the federal Bureau of Labor Statistics. That has never happened before, in data going back to 1948.”
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/american-worker-productivity-declining-fastest-181131658.html
Work from Home and Productivity: Evidence from Personnel and Analytics Data on Information Technology Professionals
"We study employee productivity before and during the working-from-home period of the COVID-19 pandemic, using personnel and analytics data from over 10,000 skilled professionals at an Indian technology company. Hours worked increased, output declined slightly, and productivity fell 8%–19%. We then analyze determinants of productivity changes. An important source is higher communication costs. Time spent on coordination activities and meetings increased, while uninterrupted work hours shrank considerably. Employees networked with fewer individuals and business units inside and outside the firm and had fewer one-to-one meetings with supervisors. The findings suggest key issues for firms in implementing remote work. .... WFH productivity was lower for employees who had children at home, so this is a partial explanation. However, those without children at home also suffered a large decline in productivity, with similar patterns for reduced focus time, increased time spent in large meetings, and decreased one-to-one communications and meetings.”
https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/full/10.1086/721803
White House asks Cabinet agencies to ‘aggressively execute’ return to in-person work
"The email, sent to Cabinet secretaries by White House chief of staff Jeff Zients, cites the end of the Covid-19 public health emergency and the benefit of increased productivity from in-person work. 'This is a priority of the President – and I am looking to each of you to aggressively execute this shift in September and October,' the email reads."
https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/04/politics/white-house-cabinet-in-person-work/index.html
Anonymous
02/21/2025 14:14
Subject: Parents of small children - how are you managing RTO?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I understand the problems that people are facing with childcare and the stress of it. I understand this because I, along with many of us, have been there, done that. My kids are teens. When they were little and I was at a law firm and DH was (and still is for now) a fed, there were zero telework options. We were both in the office full time, all the time.
This situation now may seem unique and insurmountable. It is neither of those things. It is hard, though. And you’ll make it work.
DP. Agree. It is hard. 12 hour days in daycare. It is the reason we only had one child. But parents of young kids today never expected to go back in time like this.
Maybe not to this extreme but they absolutely should have planned to have childcare.
They did!!!! It is just structured around different assumptions. These are reasonable assumptions based on the trends of the last 10+ years. Not just COVID. It is utterly stupidity to have people FT in offices when the work they do spans the country and internationally. It costs more in RE and drives unnecessary congestion and environmental impact. People who cannot grasp this are either incredibly spiteful or stupid or both.
Anonymous
02/21/2025 14:14
Subject: Re:Parents of small children - how are you managing RTO?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:So much drama about family values and this country provides zero supports to working parents, as a society we are cruel, individualistic and mean. No wonder we have mentally fu*ked up kids blowing up other kids in schools. This talk of the greatest, wealthiest nation is just bs, wealth and benefits only for the billionaire class, the rest can spend their lives in servitude to the rich.
I don’t see where this is coming from. I grew up a “latch key” kid (remember when that was a thing) and my kids were in daycare while DH and I were in the office full time.
Is the implication that daycare is causing school shootings?
Maybe having parents around all the time is causing the anxiety and depression spikes in kids.
Please go into the general parenting forum and express that kids should be removed from their parents for more hours of the day in order to prevent anxiety and depression and school shootings.
I’m not suggesting that should happen. I’m pointing out correlation does not equal causation. RTO will not increase school shootings. Before and after care will probably have no impact on anxiety/depression in kids.
I’m suggesting you should see the reaction from parents to suggesting that. Particularly if you identify yourself as a mother.
No one loves these years when you feel squeezed beyond belief- financially, physically, emotionally. I am a mother who has been through this stage and it was hard. We paid $40k a year for daycare. I’m sure it’s more now. And then we paid for aftercare. You and others will go through this stage and it will be hard. There is no way around it but through it.
I'm not for the "through it" approach- my DC is grown now, but I have no interest in seeing families crushed under the weight of childcare costs, student loans, and zero work flexibility. I went "through it" and I would like to believe that we can do better for families.
Anonymous
02/21/2025 14:05
Subject: Parents of small children - how are you managing RTO?
I got my citizenship recently and grew up abroad. I find this entire thread fascinating. America is such an individualistic country, I don’t think I’ve seen this anywhere else. There seems to be a notion that because having kids is an individual choice, they also are that individual’s burden and they are expected to carry that burden alone with absolutely no help from society. Yet having kids is a societal good and an aging population is dangerous for society especially now with ppl living longer. Who is supposed to look after you when you are older though? I’m not talking about individual arrangements. I’m talking about the nurses, the doctors, medical staff etc. Who builds the roads, houses, and infrastructure? Provides goods and services? Pays into social security? U know all the things needed for society to function? These are other people’s children. So there needs to be a way to figure out how to make work compatible with having families. Sure many of you can hire care but who looks after the family of the person you hire? Do they have affordable childcare? If we want to remain functional as a society we need to stop thinking in such an individualistic manner. Back home, the village literally raises the child. What’s America’s solution?
Anonymous
02/21/2025 14:04
Subject: Re:Parents of small children - how are you managing RTO?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Nope. I’m the PP. my colleague’s kid should have been in preschool but wasn’t. It wasn’t letting a 7 year old watch tv for an hour or two after stepping out for 10 minutes to pick them up at the bus. We were told telework was a privilege and that we might have to come in some times. I had two kids in preschool and was spending close $55k at the time so I wasn’t very sympathetic when this colleague pushed back and would t make herself available. For those scrambling now, even less so. Congrats. You saved big and had flexibility for many years but didn’t plan for this even though it’s been obvious for months that the writing was on the wall. Sorry not sorry.
You're sorry, alright.
And I'll say it again, since you dense types don't seem to get it. YOU DON"T KNOW THEIR SCHEDULE. I was 5 days remote and had a flex schedule so I could step out and do things and make up the time in the evening. What is it your business if my position allows for that?
Also, some people were hired as telework or remote (that is, that is how the job was announced and what was a condition of their employment). While we all sort of expected SOME arbitrary RTO order from the Felon In Chief, a full 5 day RTO was not. Especially for agencies with long history of effective TW. This is punitive and arbitrary and will actually COST money. But, hey, you get to feel smug that you stuck to someone who you know nothing about. That makes you a POS but it doesn't make you right.
Some would argue it’s the taxpayer’s business when and if you are working.
Anonymous
02/21/2025 13:58
Subject: Re:Parents of small children - how are you managing RTO?
Anonymous wrote:Nope. I’m the PP. my colleague’s kid should have been in preschool but wasn’t. It wasn’t letting a 7 year old watch tv for an hour or two after stepping out for 10 minutes to pick them up at the bus. We were told telework was a privilege and that we might have to come in some times. I had two kids in preschool and was spending close $55k at the time so I wasn’t very sympathetic when this colleague pushed back and would t make herself available. For those scrambling now, even less so. Congrats. You saved big and had flexibility for many years but didn’t plan for this even though it’s been obvious for months that the writing was on the wall. Sorry not sorry.
You're sorry, alright.
And I'll say it again, since you dense types don't seem to get it. YOU DON"T KNOW THEIR SCHEDULE. I was 5 days remote and had a flex schedule so I could step out and do things and make up the time in the evening. What is it your business if my position allows for that?
Also, some people were hired as telework or remote (that is, that is how the job was announced and what was a condition of their employment). While we all sort of expected SOME arbitrary RTO order from the Felon In Chief, a full 5 day RTO was not. Especially for agencies with long history of effective TW. This is punitive and arbitrary and will actually COST money. But, hey, you get to feel smug that you stuck to someone who you know nothing about. That makes you a POS but it doesn't make you right.
Anonymous
02/21/2025 13:54
Subject: Re:Parents of small children - how are you managing RTO?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:So much drama about family values and this country provides zero supports to working parents, as a society we are cruel, individualistic and mean. No wonder we have mentally fu*ked up kids blowing up other kids in schools. This talk of the greatest, wealthiest nation is just bs, wealth and benefits only for the billionaire class, the rest can spend their lives in servitude to the rich.
I don’t see where this is coming from. I grew up a “latch key” kid (remember when that was a thing) and my kids were in daycare while DH and I were in the office full time.
Is the implication that daycare is causing school shootings?
Maybe having parents around all the time is causing the anxiety and depression spikes in kids.
Please go into the general parenting forum and express that kids should be removed from their parents for more hours of the day in order to prevent anxiety and depression and school shootings.
I’m not suggesting that should happen. I’m pointing out correlation does not equal causation. RTO will not increase school shootings. Before and after care will probably have no impact on anxiety/depression in kids.
I’m suggesting you should see the reaction from parents to suggesting that. Particularly if you identify yourself as a mother.
No one loves these years when you feel squeezed beyond belief- financially, physically, emotionally. I am a mother who has been through this stage and it was hard. We paid $40k a year for daycare. I’m sure it’s more now. And then we paid for aftercare. You and others will go through this stage and it will be hard. There is no way around it but through it.
THERE IS A WAY AROUND IT. Telework an workplace flex.
Anonymous
02/21/2025 13:51
Subject: Parents of small children - how are you managing RTO?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:You should manage childcare for RTO the same way you manage it for WFH. You are not supposed to be dropping off and picking up on the clock. Nor are you supposed to be caring for your kids at home. You were supposed to have a childcare plan this whole time. WFH is not your childcare plan. Why are you just now trying to figure it out.
What folks here are talking about is added commute time and inability to find extended care. 2 hours and 10 minutes for me per day thanks to RTO. Most aftercare programs are full or there is no before/aftercare and your only option is to find someone privately, which is nearly impossible between the hours of 5-7am or 3-6pm. My kids are on the bus by 06:30am and they get home at 3pm. That is 8 full hours plus 30 minute lunch. Now we split time. One parent stays behind and gets kids on the bus, while the other one gets up at 4am and out of the door by 04:45am to be home by the time the bus gets there at 3pm.
It's even worse when your kids don't have a bus. My kids are 8-3pm. Kids used to just walk home and I was teleworking. They played with their friends until I got off at 4. The drama I've had to endure from them going to after school daycare has been unbearable. It's also an extra $800 a month for 1.5 hours of care a day ($100 a week per kid). I promised them I'd figure it out, so I'm going to try working 6-2:30pm.
I also think full time remote work wasn't working for my agency. I'm a manager and had numbers to show it, so did other managers. 50% however, worked great. It was ideal from both employee and agency perspective. We had in person meetings, but also had silent, at home days to get our work done.
Anonymous
02/21/2025 13:11
Subject: Parents of small children - how are you managing RTO?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I understand the problems that people are facing with childcare and the stress of it. I understand this because I, along with many of us, have been there, done that. My kids are teens. When they were little and I was at a law firm and DH was (and still is for now) a fed, there were zero telework options. We were both in the office full time, all the time.
This situation now may seem unique and insurmountable. It is neither of those things. It is hard, though. And you’ll make it work.
DP. Agree. It is hard. 12 hour days in daycare. It is the reason we only had one child. But parents of young kids today never expected to go back in time like this.
It is also expensive. We’re still spending $40k per year on childcare and summer camps for our elementary aged kids. We also made sure to pick camps with extended day options knowing RTO was a possibility. Those of you that got away with WFH without paying for childcare post pandemic hopefully saved plenty of money that now will need to be spent on childcare. I still recall years ago a colleague who “couldn’t move her telework days” because of lack of childcare for her son. I was pissed that our managers didn’t push back. Join the rest of us. Sorry if you moved to an area or bought a house that made this challenging (like my colleagues that took the fork because they moved to a different state even though remote work had to be renewed annually) or you didn’t budget for it.
Yeah, I don't think a lot of people do this, but it has been happening. It's the entire premise of OP's post.
We just enrolled 2 kids into our center whose fed parents have to RTO. Kids ages are infant and almost 3.
But that PP was not very specific. I bet the colleague's son was an ES-age kid, and the colleague did not have him signed up for aftercare on her telework days, so he would come home and watch TV for like 30 min to an hour in a different room while the colleague finished up their workday. Big deal! I doubt the colleague admitted to the manager that she was watching a 2-yr old all day while she supposedly "worked".
What does that enrollment prove? Do you know that those two kids were at home with their working parents before? Maybe they were in a different care arrangement that didn't have the long hours that your big center has, which this family only now needs for the first time to cover their new commute...
Look, I'm sure there are some folks out there that have been keeping their little ones home with them while working, and that is wrong. Full stop. But I'm not convinced it's been a wide scale phenomenon. No one in my circle -- good friends, mom acquaintances, neighbors, etc. did that...
Anonymous
02/21/2025 13:02
Subject: Parents of small children - how are you managing RTO?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I understand the problems that people are facing with childcare and the stress of it. I understand this because I, along with many of us, have been there, done that. My kids are teens. When they were little and I was at a law firm and DH was (and still is for now) a fed, there were zero telework options. We were both in the office full time, all the time.
This situation now may seem unique and insurmountable. It is neither of those things. It is hard, though. And you’ll make it work.
DP. Agree. It is hard. 12 hour days in daycare. It is the reason we only had one child. But parents of young kids today never expected to go back in time like this.
It is also expensive. We’re still spending $40k per year on childcare and summer camps for our elementary aged kids. We also made sure to pick camps with extended day options knowing RTO was a possibility. Those of you that got away with WFH without paying for childcare post pandemic hopefully saved plenty of money that now will need to be spent on childcare. I still recall years ago a colleague who “couldn’t move her telework days” because of lack of childcare for her son. I was pissed that our managers didn’t push back. Join the rest of us. Sorry if you moved to an area or bought a house that made this challenging (like my colleagues that took the fork because they moved to a different state even though remote work had to be renewed annually) or you didn’t budget for it.
Yeah, I don't think a lot of people do this, but it has been happening. It's the entire premise of OP's post.
We just enrolled 2 kids into our center whose fed parents have to RTO. Kids ages are infant and almost 3.
But that PP was not very specific. I bet the colleague's son was an ES-age kid, and the colleague did not have him signed up for aftercare on her telework days, so he would come home and watch TV for like 30 min to an hour in a different room while the colleague finished up their workday. Big deal! I doubt the colleague admitted to the manager that she was watching a 2-yr old all day while she supposedly "worked".
Anonymous
02/21/2025 12:59
Subject: Re:Parents of small children - how are you managing RTO?
Nope. I’m the PP. my colleague’s kid should have been in preschool but wasn’t. It wasn’t letting a 7 year old watch tv for an hour or two after stepping out for 10 minutes to pick them up at the bus. We were told telework was a privilege and that we might have to come in some times. I had two kids in preschool and was spending close $55k at the time so I wasn’t very sympathetic when this colleague pushed back and would t make herself available. For those scrambling now, even less so. Congrats. You saved big and had flexibility for many years but didn’t plan for this even though it’s been obvious for months that the writing was on the wall. Sorry not sorry.
Anonymous
02/21/2025 12:54
Subject: Parents of small children - how are you managing RTO?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I understand the problems that people are facing with childcare and the stress of it. I understand this because I, along with many of us, have been there, done that. My kids are teens. When they were little and I was at a law firm and DH was (and still is for now) a fed, there were zero telework options. We were both in the office full time, all the time.
This situation now may seem unique and insurmountable. It is neither of those things. It is hard, though. And you’ll make it work.
DP. Agree. It is hard. 12 hour days in daycare. It is the reason we only had one child. But parents of young kids today never expected to go back in time like this.
It is also expensive. We’re still spending $40k per year on childcare and summer camps for our elementary aged kids. We also made sure to pick camps with extended day options knowing RTO was a possibility. Those of you that got away with WFH without paying for childcare post pandemic hopefully saved plenty of money that now will need to be spent on childcare. I still recall years ago a colleague who “couldn’t move her telework days” because of lack of childcare for her son. I was pissed that our managers didn’t push back. Join the rest of us. Sorry if you moved to an area or bought a house that made this challenging (like my colleagues that took the fork because they moved to a different state even though remote work had to be renewed annually) or you didn’t budget for it.
Yeah, I don't think a lot of people do this, but it has been happening. It's the entire premise of OP's post.
But that PP was not very specific. I bet the colleague's son was an ES-age kid, and the colleague did not have him signed up for aftercare on her telework days, so he would come home and watch TV for like 30 min to an hour in a different room while the colleague finished up their workday. Big deal! I doubt the colleague admitted to the manager that she was watching a 2-yr old all day while she supposedly "worked".
Anonymous
02/21/2025 12:50
Subject: Re:Parents of small children - how are you managing RTO?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:So much drama about family values and this country provides zero supports to working parents, as a society we are cruel, individualistic and mean. No wonder we have mentally fu*ked up kids blowing up other kids in schools. This talk of the greatest, wealthiest nation is just bs, wealth and benefits only for the billionaire class, the rest can spend their lives in servitude to the rich.
I don’t see where this is coming from. I grew up a “latch key” kid (remember when that was a thing) and my kids were in daycare while DH and I were in the office full time.
Is the implication that daycare is causing school shootings?
Maybe having parents around all the time is causing the anxiety and depression spikes in kids.
Please go into the general parenting forum and express that kids should be removed from their parents for more hours of the day in order to prevent anxiety and depression and school shootings.
I’m not suggesting that should happen. I’m pointing out correlation does not equal causation. RTO will not increase school shootings. Before and after care will probably have no impact on anxiety/depression in kids.
I’m suggesting you should see the reaction from parents to suggesting that. Particularly if you identify yourself as a mother.
No one loves these years when you feel squeezed beyond belief- financially, physically, emotionally. I am a mother who has been through this stage and it was hard. We paid $40k a year for daycare. I’m sure it’s more now. And then we paid for aftercare. You and others will go through this stage and it will be hard. There is no way around it but through it.
I don't understand this mentality at all. Especially when you can see the data that costs exceed raises. So we are squeezed x times financially which adds x more stress. Commutes are longer. Fact. Cost increased. Fact.
It's not apples to apples no matter how much you pat our heads and tell us how hard it is. It's like a grandparent tellinf their grandkid they paid for college working during the summers and just stop getting Starbucks.
Anonymous
02/21/2025 12:28
Subject: Re:Parents of small children - how are you managing RTO?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:So much drama about family values and this country provides zero supports to working parents, as a society we are cruel, individualistic and mean. No wonder we have mentally fu*ked up kids blowing up other kids in schools. This talk of the greatest, wealthiest nation is just bs, wealth and benefits only for the billionaire class, the rest can spend their lives in servitude to the rich.
I don’t see where this is coming from. I grew up a “latch key” kid (remember when that was a thing) and my kids were in daycare while DH and I were in the office full time.
Is the implication that daycare is causing school shootings?
Maybe having parents around all the time is causing the anxiety and depression spikes in kids.
Please go into the general parenting forum and express that kids should be removed from their parents for more hours of the day in order to prevent anxiety and depression and school shootings.
I’m not suggesting that should happen. I’m pointing out correlation does not equal causation. RTO will not increase school shootings. Before and after care will probably have no impact on anxiety/depression in kids.
I’m suggesting you should see the reaction from parents to suggesting that. Particularly if you identify yourself as a mother.
No one loves these years when you feel squeezed beyond belief- financially, physically, emotionally. I am a mother who has been through this stage and it was hard. We paid $40k a year for daycare. I’m sure it’s more now. And then we paid for aftercare. You and others will go through this stage and it will be hard. There is no way around it but through it.
Anonymous
02/21/2025 12:22
Subject: Parents of small children - how are you managing RTO?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Others are managing RTO without a village just like any other parents who work in person and don’t have a village. Having kids always has been a sacrifice for most people. You just had a reprieve for a few years.
A lot of child care centers decreased their hours and enrollment during the pandemic for safety reasons and haven’t been able to staff up to increase back to pre pandemic enrollment.
Parenthood has always been difficult, but I’ll put money on this delightful remark having come from someone ignorant to the fact that there is a dwindling supply of child care.
It’s not a dwindling supply but increased cost. I’m actually sympathetic to the RTO side because it’s apparent even in my own work (private) that full time WFH does not work, but something needs to be done about the cost of childcare. I pay exactly double an hour for a nanny that I did pre-pandemic. Double! And I’m not DCUM wealthy. The people saying “suck it up” paid $16 for a nanny just 5 years and have no idea what parents are up against. And if you complain about what nannies cost (more than many nurses make) people accuse you of abusing your employees. Parents can’t win.
I used to pay $15 per hour in year 2019, now I pay $30 per hour. Aside from the cost, it’s a lot harder to find childcare providers now. A lot of them rather walk dogs and leave after a few weeks. I would say personally I struggled and it impacted my performance at work which eventually led me to miss out on some opportunities.