Anonymous
Post 06/12/2013 08:34     Subject: Any Parents Privately Disappointed with College Placement?
I think this question is interesting. But from my perspective, it's also the wrong question. The issue isn't which school is sending the most kids to X or Y school. The issue is which school(s) are going to help a particular student learn, love learning, and carry that commitment into college. There's no universally true answer to that question.

Also, the Ivies and top liberal arts schools are wonderful, but they are not necessarily the best choice for every student. If a student has a passion and learns how to apply themselves and problem-solve, they will get into a university and do well. This, and no stat or single alma mater name, will get them into a career.

So I'd focus on the student, not the school, and not the aggregate stats.
Anonymous
Post 06/11/2013 12:47     Subject: Any Parents Privately Disappointed with College Placement?
wow...interesting read!
Anonymous
Post 01/09/2013 08:50     Subject: Any Parents Privately Disappointed with College Placement?
Anonymous wrote:School counselors are trying to do the best for each kid AND for the class as a whole. The latter means they encourage and discourage individual kids -- don't want too many kids applying to Stanford or Oberlin. So they steer those who might apply to Stanford but are unlikely to get in to, say, UMich. It is the school's incentive to do that. Knowing this is why I'd never let the school counselor have too much influence. Same with when a counselor suggests that, once a strong kid has gotten in early to a school they really like, that kid withdraw applications from other schools to enhance the chances of other of the school's applicants to actually get in. The counselor can advocate this, but it is up to the family to decide about the tradeoff between maintaining full choice for their child vs. helping out other students.


This seems exactly right. The other variable is that, for a college which is particularly popular (say, UMich, which kids apply to as a reach, a realistic, and a safety), the counselor can't push all kids equally at the school. So the kids who have made it clear that they REALLY want to go there will get pushed harder.
Anonymous
Post 01/09/2013 08:40     Subject: Any Parents Privately Disappointed with College Placement?
Of course if early decision you have to withdraw. It is EA cases I'm referring to.
Anonymous
Post 01/09/2013 07:52     Subject: Any Parents Privately Disappointed with College Placement?
Anonymous wrote:School counselors are trying to do the best for each kid AND for the class as a whole. The latter means they encourage and discourage individual kids -- don't want too many kids applying to Stanford or Oberlin. So they steer those who might apply to Stanford but are unlikely to get in to, say, UMich. It is the school's incentive to do that. Knowing this is why I'd never let the school counselor have too much influence. Same with when a counselor suggests that, once a strong kid has gotten in early to a school they really like, that kid withdraw applications from other schools to enhance the chances of other of the school's applicants to actually get in. The counselor can advocate this, but it is up to the family to decide about the tradeoff between maintaining full choice for their child vs. helping out other students.



If you get in early decision you must withdraw applications from other colleges. It is binding. Early action you can continue on with other colleges.
Anonymous
Post 01/09/2013 07:46     Subject: Any Parents Privately Disappointed with College Placement?
School counselors are trying to do the best for each kid AND for the class as a whole. The latter means they encourage and discourage individual kids -- don't want too many kids applying to Stanford or Oberlin. So they steer those who might apply to Stanford but are unlikely to get in to, say, UMich. It is the school's incentive to do that. Knowing this is why I'd never let the school counselor have too much influence. Same with when a counselor suggests that, once a strong kid has gotten in early to a school they really like, that kid withdraw applications from other schools to enhance the chances of other of the school's applicants to actually get in. The counselor can advocate this, but it is up to the family to decide about the tradeoff between maintaining full choice for their child vs. helping out other students.
Anonymous
Post 01/08/2013 18:49     Subject: Any Parents Privately Disappointed with College Placement?
Anonymous wrote:From reading both your posts, it seems to me that no one should worry too much about college counselors discouraging students, or about counselors failing to "go to bat" for certain students. In your posts, you both have close personal experience with qualified students being admitted despite the fact that the college counselor discouraged them and didn't "got to bat" for them either. Seems like the college counselor doesn't have nearly as much influence on admissions as you seem to fear.

I'm sure some counselors might have inappropriate influence over students, and some students might fail to apply for a desired college because of what a counselor said. Indeed, I myself was told by my college counselor not to bother applying to several colleges where I was admitted. But that problem seems to stem from (1) the college counselor doesn't know the student well enough, (2) the college counselor doesn't have a good grasp of the admissions landscape, and (3) the student allows herself to be controlled by the counselor. If the counselor stinks, that's a problem. But the more important lesson (to me at least) is that students need to be strong enough to make their own decisions, and not blindly follow advice they feel is incorrect.


I disagree with your first para, and agree with the second.

From watching DD and friends, it seems like college counselors have maybe 2 opportunities to put their thumbs on the scales -- going to bat, or not, for students. First, the school counselor writes a sort of narrative about the student that gets sent to colleges along with the transcripts. The school counselor can make this narrative glow, or it can be lukewarm. Second, school counselors work to build relationships with college admissions offices, and as a result they will have contacts at some although not all selective colleges, so when they are chatting with a particular college about their kids who are applying... well, you get the picture.

In both cases, a lukewarm endorsement can speak volumes, as we all know from other situations. I truly doubt that a school counselor would ever be really negative about a student (unless it's a question of sending the class pothead to a top school, in which case I sort of wouldn't blame them, because the pothead might damage the chances of future applicants). I also think a school counselor wants to maintain a good reputation with the selective college, so they aren't going to be overtly manipulative, except for maybe the pothead. So while I agree with you that kids should ignore advice from bad school counselors, and I applaud your ability to make your own decisions, I think your school counselor's palpable lack of support for your decision might have some consequences, unless you are strong enough to stand on the transcript, SATs and recs.
Anonymous
Post 01/08/2013 11:15     Subject: Any Parents Privately Disappointed with College Placement?
Some of the counselors at the elite privates really are influenced by the "influencial families" and may try to advance the influential girl over the other.

PP -- fyi -- recruited athletes are in a separate category -- the colleges decide which athletes they are going to recruit and those are generally separate spots than the "2 Stanford spots go to Holton" type spots.
Anonymous
Post 01/08/2013 11:15     Subject: Re:Any Parents Privately Disappointed with College Placement?
Anonymous wrote:Ino one knows their child better than the parent. Having said that, I believe parents should take the lead in this process. There are a lot of parents who think their child could get into Harvard. However their 4.0, volunteering, sports team playing child is a dime a dozen. I think it is great to go for an Ivy, but also go to a safety school. Catholic types like Georgetown, but their are many more.


Georgetown's admission rate was 16% last year, and lower when you take out recruited athletes. Higher than Harvard, but that is not a safety school!
Anonymous
Post 01/08/2013 11:07     Subject: Re:Any Parents Privately Disappointed with College Placement?
Anonymous wrote:I'm a former college admissions officer and have had 2 kids apply to college from a DC independent school. I would absolutely agree that the school counselors often steer kids away from certain colleges even when the kid would have a good shot at that school -- maybe not a slam dunk, but a good shot.


Are these counselors steering kids away because they aren't a "slam dunK" or because they don't want to take the spot away from "shoe in". Like in the PP's example, would they prefer to advocate for the stellar athlete rather than the person with the 70% chance of getting in? Are they simply afraid of one taking the spot from the other? In which case I'd say the counselor is doing the school and students a disservice.
Anonymous
Post 01/08/2013 11:07     Subject: Re:Any Parents Privately Disappointed with College Placement?
Ino one knows their child better than the parent. Having said that, I believe parents should take the lead in this process. There are a lot of parents who think their child could get into Harvard. However their 4.0, volunteering, sports team playing child is a dime a dozen. I think it is great to go for an Ivy, but also go to a safety school. Catholic types like Georgetown, but their are many more.
Anonymous
Post 01/08/2013 10:32     Subject: Re:Any Parents Privately Disappointed with College Placement?
I'm a former college admissions officer and have had 2 kids apply to college from a DC independent school. I would absolutely agree that the school counselors often steer kids away from certain colleges even when the kid would have a good shot at that school -- maybe not a slam dunk, but a good shot.
Anonymous
Post 01/08/2013 09:47     Subject: Any Parents Privately Disappointed with College Placement?
I agree pp, but some kids will be influenced by what the counselor says. I didn't develope that kind of confidence until I was in college. Fortunately I went to a good school, one that is now super competitive that I doubt I would get into now!
Anonymous
Post 01/08/2013 09:29     Subject: Any Parents Privately Disappointed with College Placement?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
I agree with your post. At the privates -- students may be fractions of a point away from each other with respect to grades. If the college counselor knows that Suzie has a 4.23 and Jennie has a 4.15 -- she will probably push for Suzie...even though Jennie might be a fit as well. I know of a case this year at a very elite private that the college counsellor told a girl she really wanted this other girl to get the Stanford spot. The girl who ended getting the Stanford "spot" was a recruited athlete whereas the girl with slightly higher grades didn't have the sports component to "her package". The girl who was selected for Stanford told me about it and felt really badly that the college counselor made her feel like "second best" and somehow undeserving of Stanford. It is the colleges and not the college counsellors who pick who they want. Sometimes the college counsellors resent this and try to steer potential candidates away from even applying knowing they might be the one selected. We found the college counsellors tried to suck up to some of the prominent parents and could care less about the "nobodies". It really didn't have to do as much with the actual students.


I'm not "bashing" college counselors but stating that college counselors often do discourage a student from applying to a college in which he/she may be interested, even if the student may "be competitive," i.e. have a good chance of admission to that college, because the school is prepared to support strongly only a certain number of students' applications to that college. Your hypothetical Sally can, of course, still apply to that college, but she will not have the school counselor's strongest advocacy for her application. The strongest advocacy will be reserved for the students who the school or the counselor thinks has the best chances and wishes to support most strongly. This is the reality of how it works. I do not state anywhere in my posts that this ia a bad thing; therefore I am not "bashing," as you call it.


Also, to answer your question about how I know that this does not apply just to my college: in my training and my work I have talked to a lot of people in admissions from not only my college but also other colleges. Everyone knows and talks about the triage of each school's "going to bat" for certain students but discouraging other students that may have a good shot but are not as strong.

I went to an Ivy. If I had not applied b/c my moronic counsellor had told me not to. Well, I woulld not have gotten in. Why let someone else discourage you? They were forever telling me was "only for the very best students" not me. How surprising when the fat letter came.


From reading both your posts, it seems to me that no one should worry too much about college counselors discouraging students, or about counselors failing to "go to bat" for certain students. In your posts, you both have close personal experience with qualified students being admitted despite the fact that the college counselor discouraged them and didn't "got to bat" for them either. Seems like the college counselor doesn't have nearly as much influence on admissions as you seem to fear.

I'm sure some counselors might have inappropriate influence over students, and some students might fail to apply for a desired college because of what a counselor said. Indeed, I myself was told by my college counselor not to bother applying to several colleges where I was admitted. But that problem seems to stem from (1) the college counselor doesn't know the student well enough, (2) the college counselor doesn't have a good grasp of the admissions landscape, and (3) the student allows herself to be controlled by the counselor. If the counselor stinks, that's a problem. But the more important lesson (to me at least) is that students need to be strong enough to make their own decisions, and not blindly follow advice they feel is incorrect.
Anonymous
Post 01/08/2013 09:13     Subject: Any Parents Privately Disappointed with College Placement?
Anonymous wrote:
I agree with your post. At the privates -- students may be fractions of a point away from each other with respect to grades. If the college counselor knows that Suzie has a 4.23 and Jennie has a 4.15 -- she will probably push for Suzie...even though Jennie might be a fit as well. I know of a case this year at a very elite private that the college counsellor told a girl she really wanted this other girl to get the Stanford spot. The girl who ended getting the Stanford "spot" was a recruited athlete whereas the girl with slightly higher grades didn't have the sports component to "her package". The girl who was selected for Stanford told me about it and felt really badly that the college counselor made her feel like "second best" and somehow undeserving of Stanford. It is the colleges and not the college counsellors who pick who they want. Sometimes the college counsellors resent this and try to steer potential candidates away from even applying knowing they might be the one selected. We found the college counsellors tried to suck up to some of the prominent parents and could care less about the "nobodies". It really didn't have to do as much with the actual students.


I'm not "bashing" college counselors but stating that college counselors often do discourage a student from applying to a college in which he/she may be interested, even if the student may "be competitive," i.e. have a good chance of admission to that college, because the school is prepared to support strongly only a certain number of students' applications to that college. Your hypothetical Sally can, of course, still apply to that college, but she will not have the school counselor's strongest advocacy for her application. The strongest advocacy will be reserved for the students who the school or the counselor thinks has the best chances and wishes to support most strongly. This is the reality of how it works. I do not state anywhere in my posts that this ia a bad thing; therefore I am not "bashing," as you call it.


Also, to answer your question about how I know that this does not apply just to my college: in my training and my work I have talked to a lot of people in admissions from not only my college but also other colleges. Everyone knows and talks about the triage of each school's "going to bat" for certain students but discouraging other students that may have a good shot but are not as strong.

I went to an Ivy. If I had not applied b/c my moronic counsellor had told me not to. Well, I woulld not have gotten in. Why let someone else discourage you? They were forever telling me was "only for the very best students" not me. How surprising when the fat letter came.