Anonymous
Post 08/10/2016 22:36     Subject: Re:MIL trying to send MY Jewish kids to Bible camp!
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Don't you get it? The in laws are undermining BOTH parents regarding a fundamental choice they have made about their lives and their children's lives. OP's husband's family can continue to be Christian, but they should respect OP and her husband's decision that their family will be Jewish. And yes, that is the will of the nuclear family. Jews don't send their kids to Bible camp.

Yes, I get it. But, I find it very interesting that someone who is very Jewish married a non-Jew. No one has mentioned this and the Op has ignored the question. If being Jewish is so important why not marry a Jew? Than there would be a Jewish MIL and FIL. Problem solved!

But, she didn't. If she doesn't want her children to have a relationship with their grandparents it may come back to bite them in the ass. The children could resent having no relations with the grandparents and you are modeling how to treat you in the future. What if they marry a Christian ( the horror) and decide to raise their children Christian? Would you try to sneak them into a Jewish camp? If you did and the son in law canceled your visit with your grandchildren....honestly how would you feel?


If OP was unable to live with this kind of cognitive dissonance I don't understand why she married into a Christian family.

You see the in laws probably think OP and their son is terribly misguided and haven't seen the light. By baptizing the grand kids, or trying to, they literally thought they were saving them from the error of their parents' ways. At this point it's probably more or less an immutable characteristic. So OP getting offended and telling the in laws they were "wrong" will simply not be effective.

Lots of Christians, even educated ones, have no clue about Jews or what Judaism is, other than as it is presented to them. So, OP's inlaws probably think Jews are weird bitter ungrateful paranoid emotionally disturbed people, based on OP's conduct. I mean seriously--what kind of mentally stable person would actually marry into a Christian family and evidently have no understanding of how a lot of Christians' minds works (especially older generations)?

The in laws were taught if you do not believe in Jesus you GO TO HELL. So don't blame them from trying to save their grandkids from GOING TO HELL, because that's what they think they're trying to do, and you will never persuade them otherwise.


OP didn't marry into a Christian family. Her DH married into a Jewish family. It doesn't matter what her ILs think. The children are Jewish and the DH has accepted that his children are Jewish. His family is Jewish. If the ILs can't accept that basic fact, then they need to step off. They can't make a Jewish family a Christian family unless the Jewish family wishes to convert.

This Jewish family has no intention of converting so tough luck for the ILs who wish they were a Christian family.
Anonymous
Post 08/10/2016 22:13     Subject: MIL trying to send MY Jewish kids to Bible camp!
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:How would people feel if the OP and her husband were very anti-gun and the MIL signed the kids up for a riflery camp?

Regardless of whether the kids should be exposed to different and/or their grandparents religions, it is the parents' decision when and how. The parents are united in what they want for their family.

I'm sure it is sad for the MIL, I would be sad if my children broke with any of the major values that are important to me; but as many people say regarding many other issues on this board, it is the parents that get to decide. I think it's interesting so many posters think it's wrong for the parents to want to maintain the final say on religion (and exposure to other religions) since most people would agree these are some of the most basic and fundamental decisions parents make for their young children.


If OP married a life member of the N.R.A. whose parents were life members of the N.R.A. and second amendment absolutists, she shouldn't be upset or surprised if they signed the kid up for riflery camp.


No, the OP married a man who was raised in an NRA household or potentially was an NRA member as a child and but has actively decided, in conjunction with the OP, that their children will not be NRA members. They have every right to be upset if the grandparents signed the kids up for a riflery camp. Surprised, maybe not, based on past behavior, but upset, yes.

I was raised in a very liberal anti-gun household. My husband was raised very conservative/pro-gun family and he served in the U.S. military so he has spent a lot of time around guns. However, both of us agree strongly that we want our children to be anti-gun (for lack of a better term) to the point where, when our kids went to a camp with riflery we made sure the camp assigned them another activity. My husband does want them exposed to guns and gun safety but he wants us to make the decision how and when that happens. If his family who frequently watches our kids and knows how we feel, took them shooting or signed them up for something gun related, that would probably be the last time they were allowed to be alone with our kids.

Not wanting the kids to go to VBS is not the same as never exposing the kids to Christianity, it's exercising the parental prerogative to decide what religious events young children are going to attend.
Anonymous
Post 08/10/2016 22:00     Subject: MIL trying to send MY Jewish kids to Bible camp!
Anonymous wrote:There's a shocking amount of anti-semitism on this thread. It's surprising to see how many people think that a Jewish mother and atheist father have no right to raise their kids Jewish or that an inter-faith marriage is somehow not as good as a single faith one. Maybe meddling Christian MIL has had lots of time on her hands this week to post here repeatedly.


NP here. I don't see any anti-semitism on this thread. I see some embarrassingly ignorant misconceptions about VBS, modern Christianity, Judaism, and the OP's family relationships.
Lots of great DCUM style sarcasm as well. If there was any anti anything in my opinion it was the usual anti Christian (seems to be synonymous with anti religion). People are so quick to say antisemitism while making sweeping generalizations of other groups (Christians particularly of course - which are as varied as any other enormous population of people .. Sort of like Jews)
Anonymous
Post 08/10/2016 21:52     Subject: Re:MIL trying to send MY Jewish kids to Bible camp!
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Don't you get it? The in laws are undermining BOTH parents regarding a fundamental choice they have made about their lives and their children's lives. OP's husband's family can continue to be Christian, but they should respect OP and her husband's decision that their family will be Jewish. And yes, that is the will of the nuclear family. Jews don't send their kids to Bible camp.

Yes, I get it. But, I find it very interesting that someone who is very Jewish married a non-Jew. No one has mentioned this and the Op has ignored the question. If being Jewish is so important why not marry a Jew? Than there would be a Jewish MIL and FIL. Problem solved!

But, she didn't. If she doesn't want her children to have a relationship with their grandparents it may come back to bite them in the ass. The children could resent having no relations with the grandparents and you are modeling how to treat you in the future. What if they marry a Christian ( the horror) and decide to raise their children Christian? Would you try to sneak them into a Jewish camp? If you did and the son in law canceled your visit with your grandchildren....honestly how would you feel?


If OP was unable to live with this kind of cognitive dissonance I don't understand why she married into a Christian family.

You see the in laws probably think OP and their son is terribly misguided and haven't seen the light. By baptizing the grand kids, or trying to, they literally thought they were saving them from the error of their parents' ways. At this point it's probably more or less an immutable characteristic. So OP getting offended and telling the in laws they were "wrong" will simply not be effective.

Lots of Christians, even educated ones, have no clue about Jews or what Judaism is, other than as it is presented to them. So, OP's inlaws probably think Jews are weird bitter ungrateful paranoid emotionally disturbed people, based on OP's conduct. I mean seriously--what kind of mentally stable person would actually marry into a Christian family and evidently have no understanding of how a lot of Christians' minds works (especially older generations)?

The in laws were taught if you do not believe in Jesus you GO TO HELL. So don't blame them from trying to save their grandkids from GOING TO HELL, because that's what they think they're trying to do, and you will never persuade them otherwise.


A lot of older Christians think interracial marriage and gay marriage are sinful too. Should no one ever marry into those families to avoid tension too? The meddling Christian grandparents overstepped their bounds and need to be respectful. If they can't do that, they lose access to the grandchildren. It's as simple as that. If they can't deal with being respectful of their son's choices he made with his wife, they can pray for the children from afar.


The kids are entitled to have a relationship with their grandparents. It's absurd for someone to marry into a family with totally different beliefs than themselves, actually leave the kids to be cared for for an extended period of time, and then pretend they were so shocked when these kinds of situations arise, because they will, and OP knew it was a problem because of the previous effort to baptize the kids. Also, OP didn't say her husband converted to Judaism, just that he agreed to raise the kids Jewish. Well got news for you--if you have a Christian parent and Christian grandparents on one side, and the Christian parent never agreed to convert to Judaism, then the Jewish parent can't possibly have much of a commitment to actually raising her kids Jewish. That's actually the bigger issue. That's why OP is so defensive about this that a week of innocuous bible camp will throw her into a tizzy. She is so weak in her own religious and cultural commitment to Judaism that she threw her so-called Judaism under a bus to marry a Christian man who according to OP has fanatically Christian parents.

Now don't get me wrong--she can marry whoever she wants, it doesn't matter to me one bit her husband's religion. But she needs to get off of her high horse and stop all the posturing. Would Orthodox Rabbis in Israel even consider her to be lawfully married under Jewish law? The Torah explicitly forbids intermarriage somewhere in Deuteronomy. If OP is going to play this kind of game, she better makes sure she knows what's she's doing.


Not the OP but this is honestly ridiculous. I am a committed Jew, married to a Catholic who did not convert. We decided what religion to raise our children, because as the PARENTS that is our right. My husband went to Catholic school his whole life and his family is very religious. We as a couple are very committed to raising our children Jewish- Jewish pre-school, Hebrew School, and frequent attendance at Friday night services. My husband has not converted for a variety of reasons that are no one's business but he is actively involved in their Jewish education. If his parents tried to teach our kids about Christianity, he would be livid because it would undermine our joint decision as the parents about how we raise our children and is incredibly disrespectful of parents' rights about how to educate their children.

My commitment to Judaism is evident in the way we are raising our children, not what religion my husband was born into. I'm not sure how you get off judging the OP's religious commitment based on a couple of paragraphs on DCUM.

For all you who like to throw around what the Orthodox Rabbi's in Israel would think, that's ridiculous too. The OP is clearly not Orthodox and I, expect like me, the opinions of Orthodox Rabbi's in Israel do NOT have any influence, it is not analogous to the Vatican. In my situation, I was married by an Orthodox AMERICAN rabbi which is more relevant to me because I'm AMERICAN and that's what my husband and I wanted. However, rabbis of all denominations and in all countries, would certainly recognize our children as 100% Jewish.

Now maybe the OP should have anticipated difficulties based on her past experience with her IL's but I certainly have every expectation that when I leave my kids with my ILs, (which, gasp, we have done because we want a few days away and we want our kids to have a good relationship with them!) my ILs would respect our decisions. All of you who are jumping all over the OP and believe it is the grandmother's right to expose the children to "their other half" are probably the same ones flipping out when your ILs give your kids extra candy. There are so many issues where DCUM believes that it's the parents right to set boundaries and the IL's have to abide by them, and yet it's ok for the grandparents to have a say in the children's religion. What a bunch of hypocrites.
Anonymous
Post 08/10/2016 21:40     Subject: MIL trying to send MY Jewish kids to Bible camp!
There's a shocking amount of anti-semitism on this thread. It's surprising to see how many people think that a Jewish mother and atheist father have no right to raise their kids Jewish or that an inter-faith marriage is somehow not as good as a single faith one. Maybe meddling Christian MIL has had lots of time on her hands this week to post here repeatedly.
Anonymous
Post 08/10/2016 21:40     Subject: Re:MIL trying to send MY Jewish kids to Bible camp!
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I think OP has a right to be upset. Jewish kids do not belong at vbs (and yes, those kids are Jewish because the mom is Jewish). On that same note, Christian kids should not be sent to a Jewish camp. Why on earth would they want to go anyway????


You really can't see the difference?



Ummm no ...?
Anonymous
Post 08/10/2016 21:39     Subject: Re:MIL trying to send MY Jewish kids to Bible camp!
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I think OP has a right to be upset. Jewish kids do not belong at vbs (and yes, those kids are Jewish because the mom is Jewish). On that same note, Christian kids should not be sent to a Jewish camp. Why on earth would they want to go anyway????


What would the Talmud say?

On the one hand, it's good that the grandparents will take the kids for a week so mommy and daddy can shtup in private.

On the other hand, Mommy married a goy and the goyish parents might be a bad influence.

On the third hand, the kids need to learn sooner or later that they gotta watch out for those goyim because #antisemitism.

On the fourth hand, maybe it will do those kids good to be out in that fresh air even if at a Christian Bible Camp and get some exercise instead of playing video games all the time for a change.

On the fifth hand, if the kids are like typical little sitcom Jewish smart aleck kids, they will be able to out-debate those Christian anti-semites at the Bible Camp. So maybe when the Christian kids tell the Jewish kids they're going to hell because they don't believe in Jesus, the Jewish kids will outfox them by pointing out all the discrepancies and flaws in whole notion that Jesus was divine.

On the sixth hand, so what if the kids do end up going to Hell? Florida is actually hotter this time of year.

Im about to pee in my pants this is hysterical. More please!!!!!


Anonymous
Post 08/10/2016 21:25     Subject: MIL trying to send MY Jewish kids to Bible camp!
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Op, if you are still around -- what did your MIL say when you called to cancel? Did she understand this is a continuation of the conversation you had previously regarding the Baptism? Does she seem to view her DS still as a Christian? (Meaning, does she hold the view that since he has not converted he still must be Christian despite his lack of practiced religion and his desire for your children to be Jewish?)

I hope you have a more pleasant path forward in terms of respect for your children's faith from your ILs.


Look, under Orthodox Judaism, intermarriage isn't permitted so OP's marriage isn't even religiously valid.

Suppose when the OPs' kids grow up they decide to marry non-Jews too? And raise their own kids as non-Jews? Is the OP going to throw another shit fit then?




When did OP state she was Orthodox?
Anonymous
Post 08/10/2016 21:25     Subject: Re:MIL trying to send MY Jewish kids to Bible camp!
I agree with you that your in laws are in the wrong, and that it was a sneaky thing of them to spring on you. However, although you are definitely morally in the right here, I would have approached it in a different way. By walking away from the phone call and then just cancelling the trip, you've escalated the conflict. You're probably going to have to continue to have a relationship with these people since they're your husband's parents and your kids' grandparents. By no means do I think you should have sent your kids to the camp, but the better thing to do would have been to tell them calmly that the kids were not allowed to go, and ask if they would prefer for you to find a different half day camp for the kids, or if you needed to cancel the trip.


This is idiotic. The gp have shown over time that they can't be trusted to respect the parents' wishes. Glad OP isn't a doormat.


Sorry to hear you feel that way. When someone responds to a post with "this is idiotic" with no explanation as to why, I can't take the response seriously, but you're entitled to whatever opinion you want.
Anonymous
Post 08/10/2016 21:22     Subject: MIL trying to send MY Jewish kids to Bible camp!
Anonymous wrote:Op, if you are still around -- what did your MIL say when you called to cancel? Did she understand this is a continuation of the conversation you had previously regarding the Baptism? Does she seem to view her DS still as a Christian? (Meaning, does she hold the view that since he has not converted he still must be Christian despite his lack of practiced religion and his desire for your children to be Jewish?)

I hope you have a more pleasant path forward in terms of respect for your children's faith from your ILs.


Look, under Orthodox Judaism, intermarriage isn't permitted so OP's marriage isn't even religiously valid.

Suppose when the OPs' kids grow up they decide to marry non-Jews too? And raise their own kids as non-Jews? Is the OP going to throw another shit fit then?
Anonymous
Post 08/10/2016 21:16     Subject: Re:MIL trying to send MY Jewish kids to Bible camp!
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Don't you get it? The in laws are undermining BOTH parents regarding a fundamental choice they have made about their lives and their children's lives. OP's husband's family can continue to be Christian, but they should respect OP and her husband's decision that their family will be Jewish. And yes, that is the will of the nuclear family. Jews don't send their kids to Bible camp.

Yes, I get it. But, I find it very interesting that someone who is very Jewish married a non-Jew. No one has mentioned this and the Op has ignored the question. If being Jewish is so important why not marry a Jew? Than there would be a Jewish MIL and FIL. Problem solved!

But, she didn't. If she doesn't want her children to have a relationship with their grandparents it may come back to bite them in the ass. The children could resent having no relations with the grandparents and you are modeling how to treat you in the future. What if they marry a Christian ( the horror) and decide to raise their children Christian? Would you try to sneak them into a Jewish camp? If you did and the son in law canceled your visit with your grandchildren....honestly how would you feel?


If OP was unable to live with this kind of cognitive dissonance I don't understand why she married into a Christian family.

You see the in laws probably think OP and their son is terribly misguided and haven't seen the light. By baptizing the grand kids, or trying to, they literally thought they were saving them from the error of their parents' ways. At this point it's probably more or less an immutable characteristic. So OP getting offended and telling the in laws they were "wrong" will simply not be effective.

Lots of Christians, even educated ones, have no clue about Jews or what Judaism is, other than as it is presented to them. So, OP's inlaws probably think Jews are weird bitter ungrateful paranoid emotionally disturbed people, based on OP's conduct. I mean seriously--what kind of mentally stable person would actually marry into a Christian family and evidently have no understanding of how a lot of Christians' minds works (especially older generations)?

The in laws were taught if you do not believe in Jesus you GO TO HELL. So don't blame them from trying to save their grandkids from GOING TO HELL, because that's what they think they're trying to do, and you will never persuade them otherwise.


A lot of older Christians think interracial marriage and gay marriage are sinful too. Should no one ever marry into those families to avoid tension too? The meddling Christian grandparents overstepped their bounds and need to be respectful. If they can't do that, they lose access to the grandchildren. It's as simple as that. If they can't deal with being respectful of their son's choices he made with his wife, they can pray for the children from afar.


The kids are entitled to have a relationship with their grandparents. It's absurd for someone to marry into a family with totally different beliefs than themselves, actually leave the kids to be cared for for an extended period of time, and then pretend they were so shocked when these kinds of situations arise, because they will, and OP knew it was a problem because of the previous effort to baptize the kids. Also, OP didn't say her husband converted to Judaism, just that he agreed to raise the kids Jewish. Well got news for you--if you have a Christian parent and Christian grandparents on one side, and the Christian parent never agreed to convert to Judaism, then the Jewish parent can't possibly have much of a commitment to actually raising her kids Jewish. That's actually the bigger issue. That's why OP is so defensive about this that a week of innocuous bible camp will throw her into a tizzy. She is so weak in her own religious and cultural commitment to Judaism that she threw her so-called Judaism under a bus to marry a Christian man who according to OP has fanatically Christian parents.

Now don't get me wrong--she can marry whoever she wants, it doesn't matter to me one bit her husband's religion. But she needs to get off of her high horse and stop all the posturing. Would Orthodox Rabbis in Israel even consider her to be lawfully married under Jewish law? The Torah explicitly forbids intermarriage somewhere in Deuteronomy. If OP is going to play this kind of game, she better makes sure she knows what's she's doing.
Anonymous
Post 08/10/2016 21:10     Subject: MIL trying to send MY Jewish kids to Bible camp!
Op, if you are still around -- what did your MIL say when you called to cancel? Did she understand this is a continuation of the conversation you had previously regarding the Baptism? Does she seem to view her DS still as a Christian? (Meaning, does she hold the view that since he has not converted he still must be Christian despite his lack of practiced religion and his desire for your children to be Jewish?)

I hope you have a more pleasant path forward in terms of respect for your children's faith from your ILs.
Anonymous
Post 08/10/2016 21:00     Subject: MIL trying to send MY Jewish kids to Bible camp!
Anonymous wrote:How would people feel if the OP and her husband were very anti-gun and the MIL signed the kids up for a riflery camp?

Regardless of whether the kids should be exposed to different and/or their grandparents religions, it is the parents' decision when and how. The parents are united in what they want for their family.

I'm sure it is sad for the MIL, I would be sad if my children broke with any of the major values that are important to me; but as many people say regarding many other issues on this board, it is the parents that get to decide. I think it's interesting so many posters think it's wrong for the parents to want to maintain the final say on religion (and exposure to other religions) since most people would agree these are some of the most basic and fundamental decisions parents make for their young children.


If OP married a life member of the N.R.A. whose parents were life members of the N.R.A. and second amendment absolutists, she shouldn't be upset or surprised if they signed the kid up for riflery camp.
Anonymous
Post 08/10/2016 21:00     Subject: Re:MIL trying to send MY Jewish kids to Bible camp!
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Don't you get it? The in laws are undermining BOTH parents regarding a fundamental choice they have made about their lives and their children's lives. OP's husband's family can continue to be Christian, but they should respect OP and her husband's decision that their family will be Jewish. And yes, that is the will of the nuclear family. Jews don't send their kids to Bible camp.

Yes, I get it. But, I find it very interesting that someone who is very Jewish married a non-Jew. No one has mentioned this and the Op has ignored the question. If being Jewish is so important why not marry a Jew? Than there would be a Jewish MIL and FIL. Problem solved!

But, she didn't. If she doesn't want her children to have a relationship with their grandparents it may come back to bite them in the ass. The children could resent having no relations with the grandparents and you are modeling how to treat you in the future. What if they marry a Christian ( the horror) and decide to raise their children Christian? Would you try to sneak them into a Jewish camp? If you did and the son in law canceled your visit with your grandchildren....honestly how would you feel?


If OP was unable to live with this kind of cognitive dissonance I don't understand why she married into a Christian family.

You see the in laws probably think OP and their son is terribly misguided and haven't seen the light. By baptizing the grand kids, or trying to, they literally thought they were saving them from the error of their parents' ways. At this point it's probably more or less an immutable characteristic. So OP getting offended and telling the in laws they were "wrong" will simply not be effective.

Lots of Christians, even educated ones, have no clue about Jews or what Judaism is, other than as it is presented to them. So, OP's inlaws probably think Jews are weird bitter ungrateful paranoid emotionally disturbed people, based on OP's conduct. I mean seriously--what kind of mentally stable person would actually marry into a Christian family and evidently have no understanding of how a lot of Christians' minds works (especially older generations)?

The in laws were taught if you do not believe in Jesus you GO TO HELL. So don't blame them from trying to save their grandkids from GOING TO HELL, because that's what they think they're trying to do, and you will never persuade them otherwise.


A lot of older Christians think interracial marriage and gay marriage are sinful too. Should no one ever marry into those families to avoid tension too? The meddling Christian grandparents overstepped their bounds and need to be respectful. If they can't do that, they lose access to the grandchildren. It's as simple as that. If they can't deal with being respectful of their son's choices he made with his wife, they can pray for the children from afar.
Anonymous
Post 08/10/2016 20:55     Subject: Re:MIL trying to send MY Jewish kids to Bible camp!
Anonymous wrote:
Don't you get it? The in laws are undermining BOTH parents regarding a fundamental choice they have made about their lives and their children's lives. OP's husband's family can continue to be Christian, but they should respect OP and her husband's decision that their family will be Jewish. And yes, that is the will of the nuclear family. Jews don't send their kids to Bible camp.

Yes, I get it. But, I find it very interesting that someone who is very Jewish married a non-Jew. No one has mentioned this and the Op has ignored the question. If being Jewish is so important why not marry a Jew? Than there would be a Jewish MIL and FIL. Problem solved!

But, she didn't. If she doesn't want her children to have a relationship with their grandparents it may come back to bite them in the ass. The children could resent having no relations with the grandparents and you are modeling how to treat you in the future. What if they marry a Christian ( the horror) and decide to raise their children Christian? Would you try to sneak them into a Jewish camp? If you did and the son in law canceled your visit with your grandchildren....honestly how would you feel?


If OP was unable to live with this kind of cognitive dissonance I don't understand why she married into a Christian family.

You see the in laws probably think OP and their son is terribly misguided and haven't seen the light. By baptizing the grand kids, or trying to, they literally thought they were saving them from the error of their parents' ways. At this point it's probably more or less an immutable characteristic. So OP getting offended and telling the in laws they were "wrong" will simply not be effective.

Lots of Christians, even educated ones, have no clue about Jews or what Judaism is, other than as it is presented to them. So, OP's inlaws probably think Jews are weird bitter ungrateful paranoid emotionally disturbed people, based on OP's conduct. I mean seriously--what kind of mentally stable person would actually marry into a Christian family and evidently have no understanding of how a lot of Christians' minds works (especially older generations)?

The in laws were taught if you do not believe in Jesus you GO TO HELL. So don't blame them from trying to save their grandkids from GOING TO HELL, because that's what they think they're trying to do, and you will never persuade them otherwise.