Anonymous
Post 01/05/2016 13:23     Subject: Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:You are free to opine. Whether a woman is a virgin is not determined by the hijab and I think we all know how that.

Women are fighting for their right to wear hijab or niqab is France and Canada. Many women opt to wear hijab here in the US.

I can tell you my father never once asked me to wear hijab. My mother never wore it. I chose to wear it. I only stopped after I worried for my safety.

But keep imagining your explanations if it helps you to cope with seeing veiled Muslims.

Not sure why what we Muslims wear should cause you such agitation to provoke a 23 page thread. Let us be.


Here is my personal agitation (I can't speak for other pps)- my parents grew up in a Muslim country as part of a Christian minority. Their childhoods, by most measures, were fairly idyllic. At that time most people had adopted Western clothing. The world was changing very quickly. My parents did not generally feel like they were "outsiders" or "others" and the society they grew up in had many of the positive attributes of the Arab world that we no longer really hear about- close family ties, generosity, a community where people, Christian and Muslim, take care of one another. My great-grandfather was actually the elder (kind of like the mayor) of a village that had both Muslims and Christians.

Then something happened. People began to practice Islam in a new way. Men began to go to the Gulf for work, and would come home with a new attitude. Women began to wear the veil, men began to wear long beards. Now my mother was easily identifiable as a member of a minority. People began to act a little different towards them. My parents emigrated to America. A few years later, Islamic extremists killed many of the Christians and made an attempt on a relative's life, in the same village where my great-grandfather had once been the mayor. Everyone in our family left. There are no minorities there now. My parents had been friendly with Muslims they met in America, but after that were merely polite and kept their interactions brief.

So when I see women in hijab, I see a bad omen. I see a version of Islam that is from Saudi and the Gulf, a place I have no good feelings about.



I am sorry for your family's experience. There is good and bad in every country and every religion. There are extremist views that have given birth to intolerance and its unfortunate that these views are confused for the religion itself.
Anonymous
Post 01/05/2016 13:18     Subject: Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
Okay if criticizing other women's religious principles that have no effect on you is fair game, I suppose so are booty shorts, cleavage, exposing thighs, hair tossing, and all the unfortunate culturally acceptable sexual behaviors that may result from such clothing is fair game too. Are you sure about that?
Anonymous
Post 01/05/2016 12:19     Subject: Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:

Oh the irony. This lengthy thread is to convince Muslim women of their stupidity in allowing men to control them through veiling. Or to showcase Muslim womens gullibility in accepting hijab as important when, according to you, it is not. How is this not offensive to Muslim women who choose to wear hijab and believe it is an important part of their modesty? Yet when the tables are turned and western attire of shorts, skirts, using physical assets to attract men is questioned, you cry foul. Smh


It doesn't bother me in the least that you have some compelling need to think we're all in booty shorts. That compelling need of yours is your problem, not mine.

However, you should ask yourself why you have this compelling need to put western woman in an awful light. To me, the repeated need to imagine us all in booty shorts is (as a PP pointed out) a false dichotomy that you absolutely need to make the veil, by contrast, look reasonable and good.


Booty shorts came in around page 22 of this thread...after pages and pages of mockery and insults about Islamic principles and Muslim women who choose to cover. Stop criticizing Islam and Muslim women.


Criticizing Islam (or at least seeking answers about it) is completely fair game. Why should we accept every single religious practice without question? None of the other religions discussed on this board get that luxury. If more people were critical of Islamic practices, maybe a lot of the world would be a more peaceful place right now.
Anonymous
Post 01/05/2016 12:13     Subject: Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
Anonymous wrote:You are free to opine. Whether a woman is a virgin is not determined by the hijab and I think we all know how that.

Women are fighting for their right to wear hijab or niqab is France and Canada. Many women opt to wear hijab here in the US.

I can tell you my father never once asked me to wear hijab. My mother never wore it. I chose to wear it. I only stopped after I worried for my safety.

But keep imagining your explanations if it helps you to cope with seeing veiled Muslims.

Not sure why what we Muslims wear should cause you such agitation to provoke a 23 page thread. Let us be.


Here is my personal agitation (I can't speak for other pps)- my parents grew up in a Muslim country as part of a Christian minority. Their childhoods, by most measures, were fairly idyllic. At that time most people had adopted Western clothing. The world was changing very quickly. My parents did not generally feel like they were "outsiders" or "others" and the society they grew up in had many of the positive attributes of the Arab world that we no longer really hear about- close family ties, generosity, a community where people, Christian and Muslim, take care of one another. My great-grandfather was actually the elder (kind of like the mayor) of a village that had both Muslims and Christians.

Then something happened. People began to practice Islam in a new way. Men began to go to the Gulf for work, and would come home with a new attitude. Women began to wear the veil, men began to wear long beards. Now my mother was easily identifiable as a member of a minority. People began to act a little different towards them. My parents emigrated to America. A few years later, Islamic extremists killed many of the Christians and made an attempt on a relative's life, in the same village where my great-grandfather had once been the mayor. Everyone in our family left. There are no minorities there now. My parents had been friendly with Muslims they met in America, but after that were merely polite and kept their interactions brief.

So when I see women in hijab, I see a bad omen. I see a version of Islam that is from Saudi and the Gulf, a place I have no good feelings about.

Anonymous
Post 01/05/2016 12:12     Subject: Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:

Oh the irony. This lengthy thread is to convince Muslim women of their stupidity in allowing men to control them through veiling. Or to showcase Muslim womens gullibility in accepting hijab as important when, according to you, it is not. How is this not offensive to Muslim women who choose to wear hijab and believe it is an important part of their modesty? Yet when the tables are turned and western attire of shorts, skirts, using physical assets to attract men is questioned, you cry foul. Smh


It doesn't bother me in the least that you have some compelling need to think we're all in booty shorts. That compelling need of yours is your problem, not mine.

However, you should ask yourself why you have this compelling need to put western woman in an awful light. To me, the repeated need to imagine us all in booty shorts is (as a PP pointed out) a false dichotomy that you absolutely need to make the veil, by contrast, look reasonable and good.


Booty shorts came in around page 22 of this thread...after pages and pages of mockery and insults about Islamic principles and Muslim women who choose to cover. Stop criticizing Islam and Muslim women.


Ok. But why is your need to think this about western women so compelling? Sincerely curious.
Anonymous
Post 01/05/2016 12:12     Subject: Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:You are free to opine. Whether a woman is a virgin is not determined by the hijab and I think we all know how that.

Women are fighting for their right to wear hijab or niqab is France and Canada. Many women opt to wear hijab here in the US.

I can tell you my father never once asked me to wear hijab. My mother never wore it. I chose to wear it. I only stopped after I worried for my safety.

But keep imagining your explanations if it helps you to cope with seeing veiled Muslims.

Not sure why what we Muslims wear should cause you such agitation to provoke a 23 page thread. Let us be.


This country was founded upon freedom of religion, unlike most other countries, with several groups of religious extremists fleeing here to practice their religions in peace. Most of them we tolerated, some we required to change (polygamy). Women are free to wear the hijab here, unlike in France. However, we also had a cultural revolution a couple decades ago that is directly contrary to many of the reasons for wearing the hijab, so culturally it doesn't fit here well. That's why you're seeing this discussion.


What other women wear is their own business. Period.


The authors of the article cited should mind their own business, every poster on this thread should mind their own business, we should all cease to notice whatever clothes any person does or does not wear. Why?
Anonymous
Post 01/05/2016 12:07     Subject: Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:

Oh the irony. This lengthy thread is to convince Muslim women of their stupidity in allowing men to control them through veiling. Or to showcase Muslim womens gullibility in accepting hijab as important when, according to you, it is not. How is this not offensive to Muslim women who choose to wear hijab and believe it is an important part of their modesty? Yet when the tables are turned and western attire of shorts, skirts, using physical assets to attract men is questioned, you cry foul. Smh


It doesn't bother me in the least that you have some compelling need to think we're all in booty shorts. That compelling need of yours is your problem, not mine.

However, you should ask yourself why you have this compelling need to put western woman in an awful light. To me, the repeated need to imagine us all in booty shorts is (as a PP pointed out) a false dichotomy that you absolutely need to make the veil, by contrast, look reasonable and good.


Booty shorts came in around page 22 of this thread...after pages and pages of mockery and insults about Islamic principles and Muslim women who choose to cover. Stop criticizing Islam and Muslim women.
Anonymous
Post 01/05/2016 12:04     Subject: Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:You are free to opine. Whether a woman is a virgin is not determined by the hijab and I think we all know how that.

Women are fighting for their right to wear hijab or niqab is France and Canada. Many women opt to wear hijab here in the US.

I can tell you my father never once asked me to wear hijab. My mother never wore it. I chose to wear it. I only stopped after I worried for my safety.

But keep imagining your explanations if it helps you to cope with seeing veiled Muslims.

Not sure why what we Muslims wear should cause you such agitation to provoke a 23 page thread. Let us be.


This country was founded upon freedom of religion, unlike most other countries, with several groups of religious extremists fleeing here to practice their religions in peace. Most of them we tolerated, some we required to change (polygamy). Women are free to wear the hijab here, unlike in France. However, we also had a cultural revolution a couple decades ago that is directly contrary to many of the reasons for wearing the hijab, so culturally it doesn't fit here well. That's why you're seeing this discussion.


What other women wear is their own business. Period.
Anonymous
Post 01/05/2016 11:56     Subject: Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
Anonymous wrote:

Oh the irony. This lengthy thread is to convince Muslim women of their stupidity in allowing men to control them through veiling. Or to showcase Muslim womens gullibility in accepting hijab as important when, according to you, it is not. How is this not offensive to Muslim women who choose to wear hijab and believe it is an important part of their modesty? Yet when the tables are turned and western attire of shorts, skirts, using physical assets to attract men is questioned, you cry foul. Smh


It doesn't bother me in the least that you have some compelling need to think we're all in booty shorts. That compelling need of yours is your problem, not mine.

However, you should ask yourself why you have this compelling need to put western woman in an awful light. To me, the repeated need to imagine us all in booty shorts is (as a PP pointed out) a false dichotomy that you absolutely need to make the veil, by contrast, look reasonable and good.
Anonymous
Post 01/05/2016 11:51     Subject: Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
Anonymous wrote:You are free to opine. Whether a woman is a virgin is not determined by the hijab and I think we all know how that.

Women are fighting for their right to wear hijab or niqab is France and Canada. Many women opt to wear hijab here in the US.

I can tell you my father never once asked me to wear hijab. My mother never wore it. I chose to wear it. I only stopped after I worried for my safety.

But keep imagining your explanations if it helps you to cope with seeing veiled Muslims.

Not sure why what we Muslims wear should cause you such agitation to provoke a 23 page thread. Let us be.


This country was founded upon freedom of religion, unlike most other countries, with several groups of religious extremists fleeing here to practice their religions in peace. Most of them we tolerated, some we required to change (polygamy). Women are free to wear the hijab here, unlike in France. However, we also had a cultural revolution a couple decades ago that is directly contrary to many of the reasons for wearing the hijab, so culturally it doesn't fit here well. That's why you're seeing this discussion.
Anonymous
Post 01/05/2016 11:47     Subject: Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
You are free to opine. Whether a woman is a virgin is not determined by the hijab and I think we all know how that.

Women are fighting for their right to wear hijab or niqab is France and Canada. Many women opt to wear hijab here in the US.

I can tell you my father never once asked me to wear hijab. My mother never wore it. I chose to wear it. I only stopped after I worried for my safety.

But keep imagining your explanations if it helps you to cope with seeing veiled Muslims.

Not sure why what we Muslims wear should cause you such agitation to provoke a 23 page thread. Let us be.
Anonymous
Post 01/05/2016 11:47     Subject: Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Maybe the Muslim theology student was simply pleased that his wife chose to show her body to only him. And it's not uncommon for men to get excited by a woman who makes them feel special and important in any way.

In Islam gazing inevitably leads to lust (in many cases). Lust may lead to greater sins. To permit women ( or men) to show off their adornments and say no sin will ever result is just false.

Newsflash- if men and women marry, no need to have sex outside of marriage...or have sex with animals. ?


The Muslim theology student, of course, was kind of a sleaze. He loved spending time with female students, but for his own wife, I guess he wanted someone "pure." Fair enough.

Of course, pp, your description of Islam sounds consistent to what I have seen in practice. Narrow, legalistic, and overly onerous. To cover your entire body so that you can save some poor man from the risk of lust- I guess if you feel this is for the glory of God, good for you.


It's not that burdensome for many Muslim women to wear hijab. For many hijab wearers, it's more dignified than using their hair (or cleavage, legs, or any other part of their body) to attract a man's attention.


Honey, if there was anything dignified about wearing hijabs, men would be wearing them.


Lets try to refrain from the condescension ("honey"), shall we? I suppose if wearing booty shorts, exposing thighs, or tossing their hair around were dignified, men would be doing it too, no?


Are women wearing booty shorts trying to promote it as dignified? I didn't see that post.


Right, and are Muslim women who opt to wear hijab doing it solely out of oppression or because they don't understand their religion?


Oh, pp seems to understand her religion. She understands that it is her duty to cover to protect men from looking at her, and that this is somehow "dignified." Is it wrong to question this line of thinking? What exactly is dignified about it?
Anonymous
Post 01/05/2016 11:43     Subject: Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
Anonymous wrote:
Oh the irony. This lengthy thread is to convince Muslim women of their stupidity in allowing men to control them through veiling. Or to showcase Muslim womens gullibility in accepting hijab as important when, according to you, it is not. How is this not offensive to Muslim women who choose to wear hijab and believe it is an important part of their modesty? Yet when the tables are turned and western attire of shorts, skirts, using physical assets to attract men is questioned, you cry foul. Smh


This thread is not to "convince" anyone of anything. PPs are just pointing out that the idea that Western women think they are the "same" as men, that they are dressing to "attract" men, and that by living in a less conservative culture they are being exploited by men, are all false, because these are being used as important points by the people defending hijab.

I lived in a Muslim country- I would bet that the majority of the men had premarital sex, I saw many women in hijab dressed in skin tight clothes with tons of makeup, I saw women flirting with men and dating, I saw lots of men leering and staring and calling out at women. The behavior basically did not match the super-conservative attitudes that the people explaining hijab are using as an explanation FOR the hijab.
Anonymous
Post 01/05/2016 11:40     Subject: Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
The veil is about ensuring clear lines of paternity. All this stuff about preventing lust, and preventing men from "exploiting" women, is just putting rationalizations in 21st century terms.

The problem is that the rationalizations don't fit very well. That's why defenders like PP have to torture it to extremes, insisting on false dichotomies like the image of western women in booty shorts. And why the old mindsets pop up in statements about men's supposedly uncontrollable urges and how uncovered commingling inevitably leads to sex.

Modesty and chastity are requirements in many religions. The veil, however, is a pre-Islamic custom that made it into the Quran (however ambiguously). In a highly paternalistic society, a society where the family's honor may depend on the virginity of its daughters, the veil becomes a means of ensuring that virginity.
Anonymous
Post 01/05/2016 11:39     Subject: Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Maybe the Muslim theology student was simply pleased that his wife chose to show her body to only him. And it's not uncommon for men to get excited by a woman who makes them feel special and important in any way.

In Islam gazing inevitably leads to lust (in many cases). Lust may lead to greater sins. To permit women ( or men) to show off their adornments and say no sin will ever result is just false.

Newsflash- if men and women marry, no need to have sex outside of marriage...or have sex with animals. ?


The Muslim theology student, of course, was kind of a sleaze. He loved spending time with female students, but for his own wife, I guess he wanted someone "pure." Fair enough.

Of course, pp, your description of Islam sounds consistent to what I have seen in practice. Narrow, legalistic, and overly onerous. To cover your entire body so that you can save some poor man from the risk of lust- I guess if you feel this is for the glory of God, good for you.


It's not that burdensome for many Muslim women to wear hijab. For many hijab wearers, it's more dignified than using their hair (or cleavage, legs, or any other part of their body) to attract a man's attention.


Honey, if there was anything dignified about wearing hijabs, men would be wearing them.


Lets try to refrain from the condescension ("honey"), shall we? I suppose if wearing booty shorts, exposing thighs, or tossing their hair around were dignified, men would be doing it too, no?


Are women wearing booty shorts trying to promote it as dignified? I didn't see that post.


Right, and are Muslim women who opt to wear hijab doing it solely out of oppression or because they don't understand their religion?