Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are you deleting posts that press valid historical facts? If Hamas could, they would bomb every church in the world. They would kill every Christian in the world. They can’t but you can’t even bring yourself to criticize me, you who lives in your cushy place far from everything you are so vocal about. The hypocrisy of your disguist towards me, who is doing something daily to help those Israel displaces.

I am deleting posts that, like this one, are full of lines. Do you not know that one of the oldest churches in the world is in Gaza and Hamas never touched it? The Christian community lived there without issue until Israel attacked them. Hamas did not kill them as you claim they would have, but Israel has. You know who bombed that historic church? Israel. Not Hamas, Israel

You're not only ignorant about the Middle East, but proud of your ignorance. I have been saving you from embarrassment by removing your lie-filled posts.

This vituperative,very personally directed to a poster, language is uncharacteristic of you, you are normally very gracious to posters who "act up", you never lose your cool, except on this topic. I've seen this as a trend, people, when speaking against Israel, start to curse, insult, make personal attacks, as if this required to be seen as really really passionate as a sense of loyalty. In reality, it is not necessary, because attack and insults do not change minds. Ok, be against Israel. But the name calling does nothing for what you advocate for.

Oh, how civilized of you!

Ah, what a cross you bear, defending the indiscriminate slaughter of innocents by an apartheid regime that will go down in the dustbin of history alongside Nazi Germany whilst wagging your craven finger at others for failing to follow your decorum expectations.

Indeed!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are you deleting posts that press valid historical facts? If Hamas could, they would bomb every church in the world. They would kill every Christian in the world. They can’t but you can’t even bring yourself to criticize me, you who lives in your cushy place far from everything you are so vocal about. The hypocrisy of your disguist towards me, who is doing something daily to help those Israel displaces.

I am deleting posts that, like this one, are full of lines. Do you not know that one of the oldest churches in the world is in Gaza and Hamas never touched it? The Christian community lived there without issue until Israel attacked them. Hamas did not kill them as you claim they would have, but Israel has. You know who bombed that historic church? Israel. Not Hamas, Israel

You're not only ignorant about the Middle East, but proud of your ignorance. I have been saving you from embarrassment by removing your lie-filled posts.

Do you want people who do not agree with you not to post here? They should just read and accept what they read here as instruction? You will lose visitors this way, which is not of benefit to your business. I hope you don't take this as a threat or an insult, but a heads up from those who appreciate this site.

DP. How about, instead of threatening Jeff, you reapond to facts he posted?

Nothing I said was a threat or hinting at a threat and I did not mean anything as a threat. You are telling me to respond, but what is the point? If I don't say what you want me to say, you will call me stupid or a Zionist and say that I am biased or Eastern European. If I say what you want me to say, you will agree, but what is the point, you already know the info you agree with already. So there is no reason for me to post for any reason. This is the point I was making, not a threat: people are going to stop visiting and posting on this site if there is not point in doing so.

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are you deleting posts that press valid historical facts? If Hamas could, they would bomb every church in the world. They would kill every Christian in the world. They can’t but you can’t even bring yourself to criticize me, you who lives in your cushy place far from everything you are so vocal about. The hypocrisy of your disguist towards me, who is doing something daily to help those Israel displaces.

I am deleting posts that, like this one, are full of lines. Do you not know that one of the oldest churches in the world is in Gaza and Hamas never touched it? The Christian community lived there without issue until Israel attacked them. Hamas did not kill them as you claim they would have, but Israel has. You know who bombed that historic church? Israel. Not Hamas, Israel

You're not only ignorant about the Middle East, but proud of your ignorance. I have been saving you from embarrassment by removing your lie-filled posts.

This vituperative,very personally directed to a poster, language is uncharacteristic of you, you are normally very gracious to posters who "act up", you never lose your cool, except on this topic. I've seen this as a trend, people, when speaking against Israel, start to curse, insult, make personal attacks, as if this required to be seen as really really passionate as a sense of loyalty. In reality, it is not necessary, because attack and insults do not change minds. Ok, be against Israel. But the name calling does nothing for what you advocate for.

I'm sorry. When tens of thousands of people are being killed unnecessarily and people are literally being burned alive in medical tents, I get a little heated. This poster wrote, "If Hamas could, they would bomb every church in the world. They would kill every Christian in the world", something that is patently false. This sort of lie is Islamophobic. It turns the truth on its face. In fact, as has been stated, one of the oldest churches and the Christian community that attended it were in Gaza throughout Hamas' rule. It was Israel, not Hamas, that attempted to kill the Christians and bombed the church. Those sort of falsehoods make me angry.

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are you deleting posts that press valid historical facts? If Hamas could, they would bomb every church in the world. They would kill every Christian in the world. They can’t but you can’t even bring yourself to criticize me, you who lives in your cushy place far from everything you are so vocal about. The hypocrisy of your disguist towards me, who is doing something daily to help those Israel displaces.

I am deleting posts that, like this one, are full of lines. Do you not know that one of the oldest churches in the world is in Gaza and Hamas never touched it? The Christian community lived there without issue until Israel attacked them. Hamas did not kill them as you claim they would have, but Israel has. You know who bombed that historic church? Israel. Not Hamas, Israel

You're not only ignorant about the Middle East, but proud of your ignorance. I have been saving you from embarrassment by removing your lie-filled posts.

This vituperative,very personally directed to a poster, language is uncharacteristic of you, you are normally very gracious to posters who "act up", you never lose your cool, except on this topic. I've seen this as a trend, people, when speaking against Israel, start to curse, insult, make personal attacks, as if this required to be seen as really really passionate as a sense of loyalty. In reality, it is not necessary, because attack and insults do not change minds. Ok, be against Israel. But the name calling does nothing for what you advocate for.

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are you deleting posts that press valid historical facts? If Hamas could, they would bomb every church in the world. They would kill every Christian in the world. They can’t but you can’t even bring yourself to criticize me, you who lives in your cushy place far from everything you are so vocal about. The hypocrisy of your disguist towards me, who is doing something daily to help those Israel displaces.

I am deleting posts that, like this one, are full of lines. Do you not know that one of the oldest churches in the world is in Gaza and Hamas never touched it? The Christian community lived there without issue until Israel attacked them. Hamas did not kill them as you claim they would have, but Israel has. You know who bombed that historic church? Israel. Not Hamas, Israel

You're not only ignorant about the Middle East, but proud of your ignorance. I have been saving you from embarrassment by removing your lie-filled posts.

This vituperative,very personally directed to a poster, language is uncharacteristic of you, you are normally very gracious to posters who "act up", you never lose your cool, except on this topic. I've seen this as a trend, people, when speaking against Israel, start to curse, insult, make personal attacks, as if this required to be seen as really really passionate as a sense of loyalty. In reality, it is not necessary, because attack and insults do not change minds. Ok, be against Israel. But the name calling does nothing for what you advocate for.

Anonymous wrote:BTW, Israel tried to stop 60 Minutes years ago from airing Bob Simon's report on Palestinian Christians because it specifically showed who was actually persecuting them.

Always disgraceful watching a Christian defends Israel based on their own bigoted nonsense and purposely ignores the oldest Christians in Christianity are PALESTINIAN/

Muslims literally view Jesus as a prophet and Mary as holy. Why in the world would you think the oldest church which still stand would suddenly be destroyed by the very Muslims who've protected them for over a thousands years?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, if Hamas and Hezbollah choose to secrete themselves into civilian neighborhoods, as they saying goes, "you get what you get".

The overwhelming Palestinian population has elected Hamas as the government of Gaza.

Really?
Is it not true that Hana’s was last elected nearly 20 years ago, when the majority of Palestinians were either unborn or else ineligible to vote? And didn’t Hamas fail to gain a plurality of the vote at that time, but instead assume power with the assistance of the Israeli government?

Boy, your command of the actual facts is really bad, even for a Zionist.

20 years ago? Why are you judging their electoral system by U.S. standards? it is what it is.

Better question: why are you insinuating that the innocents being slaughtered by Israel have themselves to blame?

Yes. This. We can go back and forth about he 2006 election but honestly does it matter? Clearly more than militants are being killed (and maimed and displaced don’t forget). I understand it’s hard to accept that Israel is this cruel, but it is. I find it sickening that a country whose people know suffering can inflict such harm on others. (Ps. I’m not an anti semite. I’m of Jewish descent and think my people must do better).

The Hamas militants are hiding among civilians and literally used hospitals and other civilian facilities to launch attacks on the IDF. They are thus equally culpable in the killings of civilians. It's extremely misleading to try and claim that EVERY civilian death is SOLELY the fault of the IDF and we are far past due an admission from pro-Palestinians of that.

Let's agree that Israel and Hamas have equal responsibility for the ongoing genocide. The leaders of both sides should be indicted on war crimes (has already happened) and the U.S. should follow U.S. law and stop supplying weapons to both sides. Of course, the U.S. does not supply weapons to Hamas so we can only stop providing weapons to Israel. But, this will meet your objection of not placing fault only on one side.

Does what is happening in Gaza fall under this definition? Isreal could have mowed the land there by now. Did it?
Definition of genocide by the U.N.
Article II

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Yes, Israel has killed members of the group, upwards of 40,000 of them. Yes, Israel has caused serious bodily and mental harm to members of the group. Yes, Israel is deliberately inflicting conditions on the group calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or part — namely, it is striving Palestinians in northern Gaza at the moment. So, Israel is clearly 3 for 5 and only one is needed. Moreover, there are arguments that Israel has done the last two as well.

It's not only me saying this, but the International Court of Justice as well.

No, that's a common misconception. The IJC did not say that.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3g9g63jl17o

“a plausible risk of genocide”. Seems like it.

For the folks who keep using the word "genocide," have you actually stopped to compare the civilian casualty stats from the Gaza war to other urban combat scenarios?

Current death toll estimates from Gaza Health Ministry is around 42,000. This number has been disputed but for the sake of argument let's accept it, as pro-Palestine activists don't have any reason to dispute it. It's known that in those numbers, the Gaza Health Ministry lumps together civilians and militants, so we need to separate the numbers out. IDF claims 17,000 militants killed in Gaza, of which 8,500 are confirmed and identified in detailed reports. If we go by that smaller number, that gives us 42,000-8,500 = 33,500 civilians as a worst-case number. Given a population of approximately 2 million for Gaza, that gives a per-capita civilian death rate of 1.67%

In comparison, the civilian death rate in WWII was 2.17% to 2.39%. Korean war was 6.67% to 10%. Battle of Mosul may have been as high as 2.67%. Battle of Manila 10% - yet with higher civilian casualty rates than Gaza, none of these have ever been regarded as being "genocide" apart from the 6 million who died in Nazi concentration camps out of an estimated 50-55 million who died overall as a result of WWII.

Yes, war is brutal and awful and yes, the Gaza war needs to end, and yes, there are documented examples of IDF abuses and war crimes, and yes, tens of thousands of civilian Palestinian casualties is horrible but going by the numbers, it still does not bear out the term "genocide" and the numbers for Gaza are generally consistent with the numbers seen in combat elsewhere. Using that term is inflammatory rhetoric.

OK.

While we’re still on the subject of reducing human beings to numbers, Israel’s 695 dead civilians on 10/7 is what percentage of Israel’s 9.8M population?

I’ll let you do the math and then conjure an excuse for why the fact that you just stepped in shit with your lame analysis has now exploded on your own face.

Anonymous wrote:Jeff is an Orientalist; he cannot be objective about this topic.

Atrocities are committed on both sides; both sides use people as pawns and shields in this conflict. Why is nobody mentioning how many rockets Hezbollah fired over Yom Kippur?

Why are we holding Israel to a higher expectation and are outraged when they do not act with some high moral ground, but it is ok for Hamas and Hezbollah to be savage?
On that note, why is it barely news that rockets were fired at Israel, but we are all judging Israelis with a different lens?

I wrote a long post about how people are used and abused by those in power on both sides. Why are so many outraged only on behalf of Israel's actions?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are you deleting posts that press valid historical facts? If Hamas could, they would bomb every church in the world. They would kill every Christian in the world. They can’t but you can’t even bring yourself to criticize me, you who lives in your cushy place far from everything you are so vocal about. The hypocrisy of your disguist towards me, who is doing something daily to help those Israel displaces.

I am deleting posts that, like this one, are full of lines. Do you not know that one of the oldest churches in the world is in Gaza and Hamas never touched it? The Christian community lived there without issue until Israel attacked them. Hamas did not kill them as you claim they would have, but Israel has. You know who bombed that historic church? Israel. Not Hamas, Israel

You're not only ignorant about the Middle East, but proud of your ignorance. I have been saving you from embarrassment by removing your lie-filled posts.

Do you want people who do not agree with you not to post here? They should just read and accept what they read here as instruction? You will lose visitors this way, which is not of benefit to your business. I hope you don't take this as a threat or an insult, but a heads up from those who appreciate this site.

DP. How about, instead of threatening Jeff, you reapond to facts he posted?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, if Hamas and Hezbollah choose to secrete themselves into civilian neighborhoods, as they saying goes, "you get what you get".

The overwhelming Palestinian population has elected Hamas as the government of Gaza.

Really?
Is it not true that Hana’s was last elected nearly 20 years ago, when the majority of Palestinians were either unborn or else ineligible to vote? And didn’t Hamas fail to gain a plurality of the vote at that time, but instead assume power with the assistance of the Israeli government?

Boy, your command of the actual facts is really bad, even for a Zionist.

20 years ago? Why are you judging their electoral system by U.S. standards? it is what it is.

Better question: why are you insinuating that the innocents being slaughtered by Israel have themselves to blame?

Yes. This. We can go back and forth about he 2006 election but honestly does it matter? Clearly more than militants are being killed (and maimed and displaced don’t forget). I understand it’s hard to accept that Israel is this cruel, but it is. I find it sickening that a country whose people know suffering can inflict such harm on others. (Ps. I’m not an anti semite. I’m of Jewish descent and think my people must do better).

The Hamas militants are hiding among civilians and literally used hospitals and other civilian facilities to launch attacks on the IDF. They are thus equally culpable in the killings of civilians. It's extremely misleading to try and claim that EVERY civilian death is SOLELY the fault of the IDF and we are far past due an admission from pro-Palestinians of that.

Let's agree that Israel and Hamas have equal responsibility for the ongoing genocide. The leaders of both sides should be indicted on war crimes (has already happened) and the U.S. should follow U.S. law and stop supplying weapons to both sides. Of course, the U.S. does not supply weapons to Hamas so we can only stop providing weapons to Israel. But, this will meet your objection of not placing fault only on one side.

Does what is happening in Gaza fall under this definition? Isreal could have mowed the land there by now. Did it?
Definition of genocide by the U.N.
Article II

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Yes, Israel has killed members of the group, upwards of 40,000 of them. Yes, Israel has caused serious bodily and mental harm to members of the group. Yes, Israel is deliberately inflicting conditions on the group calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or part — namely, it is striving Palestinians in northern Gaza at the moment. So, Israel is clearly 3 for 5 and only one is needed. Moreover, there are arguments that Israel has done the last two as well.

It's not only me saying this, but the International Court of Justice as well.

No, that's a common misconception. The IJC did not say that.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3g9g63jl17o

“a plausible risk of genocide”. Seems like it.

For the folks who keep using the word "genocide," have you actually stopped to compare the civilian casualty stats from the Gaza war to other urban combat scenarios?

Current death toll estimates from Gaza Health Ministry is around 42,000. This number has been disputed but for the sake of argument let's accept it, as pro-Palestine activists don't have any reason to dispute it. It's known that in those numbers, the Gaza Health Ministry lumps together civilians and militants, so we need to separate the numbers out. IDF claims 17,000 militants killed in Gaza, of which 8,500 are confirmed and identified in detailed reports. If we go by that smaller number, that gives us 42,000-8,500 = 33,500 civilians as a worst-case number. Given a population of approximately 2 million for Gaza, that gives a per-capita civilian death rate of 1.67%

In comparison, the civilian death rate in WWII was 2.17% to 2.39%. Korean war was 6.67% to 10%. Battle of Mosul may have been as high as 2.67%. Battle of Manila 10% - yet with higher civilian casualty rates than Gaza, none of these have ever been regarded as being "genocide" apart from the 6 million who died in Nazi concentration camps out of an estimated 50-55 million who died overall as a result of WWII.

Yes, war is brutal and awful and yes, the Gaza war needs to end, and yes, there are documented examples of IDF abuses and war crimes, and yes, tens of thousands of civilian Palestinian casualties is horrible but going by the numbers, it still does not bear out the term "genocide" and the numbers for Gaza are generally consistent with the numbers seen in combat elsewhere. Using that term is inflammatory rhetoric.

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are you deleting posts that press valid historical facts? If Hamas could, they would bomb every church in the world. They would kill every Christian in the world. They can’t but you can’t even bring yourself to criticize me, you who lives in your cushy place far from everything you are so vocal about. The hypocrisy of your disguist towards me, who is doing something daily to help those Israel displaces.

I am deleting posts that, like this one, are full of lines. Do you not know that one of the oldest churches in the world is in Gaza and Hamas never touched it? The Christian community lived there without issue until Israel attacked them. Hamas did not kill them as you claim they would have, but Israel has. You know who bombed that historic church? Israel. Not Hamas, Israel

You're not only ignorant about the Middle East, but proud of your ignorance. I have been saving you from embarrassment by removing your lie-filled posts.

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why are you deleting posts that press valid historical facts? If Hamas could, they would bomb every church in the world. They would kill every Christian in the world. They can’t but you can’t even bring yourself to criticize me, you who lives in your cushy place far from everything you are so vocal about. The hypocrisy of your disguist towards me, who is doing something daily to help those Israel displaces.

I am deleting posts that, like this one, are full of lines. Do you not know that one of the oldest churches in the world is in Gaza and Hamas never touched it? The Christian community lived there without issue until Israel attacked them. Hamas did not kill them as you claim they would have, but Israel has. You know who bombed that historic church? Israel. Not Hamas, Israel

You're not only ignorant about the Middle East, but proud of your ignorance. I have been saving you from embarrassment by removing your lie-filled posts.

Do you want people who do not agree with you not to post here? They should just read and accept what they read here as instruction? You will lose visitors this way, which is not of benefit to your business. I hope you don't take this as a threat or an insult, but a heads up from those who appreciate this site.