Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s weird how angry it seems to make some people when a woman chooses not to have children. Maybe she wanted to but didn’t find the right guy (or didn’t find the right guy in time)? Maybe she wanted to but was afraid of burdening her theoretical offspring with heritable mental or physical illnesses? Maybe she hates kids? Maybe she lives kids but thinks she’d be a terrible mother?

Women aren’t choosing not to have kids AT YOU. This thread is bonkers.

On any individual level, you are right. But on a social/generational level, it is all our business. Because people with no family and kids will be more reliant on society and our tax dollars. Maybe it's because I come from a society with a strong emphasis on family. The expectation is that family takes care of each other. We don't rely on government help or policy. That attitude makes us, as a family unit, more resilient to the ups and downs of modern life and economic surprises. So yeah, when I see people freely choose to shun family (cutting off "toxic" family or not having kids when they can), I think it's selfish. And then when I hear all the people protesting for more government handouts and welfare, I get pretty annoyed. We are responsible for our own success and security in this life and family is the number one factor in obtaining that security.

Again, caveat about individual circumstances. But i think it's clear as a whole people are becoming more selfish and focusing more on themselves.

People are behaving rationally. We live in a late capitalism where basic living is very expensive, housing and education expenses are though the rough and wages are stagnant. Wealth is horded at the top. Covid really exposed to me that there is almost no social safety net. No one is going to give a shit about my kids but me and mine. I did not feel resilient during covid. I felt very isolated having two young children at home and almost no resources and still being expected to work like I didn't have children.

I don't blame younger people for deciding they don't want to bring children into this world. That if our society is selfish the most rational choice is to be selfish too.

But my whole point was that family is your safety net. Yes kids are a pain but they grow up to be adults, who hopefully will at least offer emotional support. When I am old and there is covid 100.0, I would rather have kids around to depend on (even if to just talk to), than to be alone. In my mind, the more I am on my own and feel like no one cares a crap about me, the more I want to make sure I have family. I guess we just think differently.

My friends are in their 50's / 60's and women friends are way more "helpful" and supportive than children or even husbands. After many having illnesses it's the community you create that is where you get emotional support.

Kids are off to college, living elsewhere, working hard, little leave, raising their own children, etc.

It's not kids.... maybe a sister but never kids.

Those women in their 50s/60s have raised families, which might make them more likely to value caregiving and community when the nest is empty. I wonder if women who have only ever had to look out for themselves would be as reliable for emotional support.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s weird how angry it seems to make some people when a woman chooses not to have children. Maybe she wanted to but didn’t find the right guy (or didn’t find the right guy in time)? Maybe she wanted to but was afraid of burdening her theoretical offspring with heritable mental or physical illnesses? Maybe she hates kids? Maybe she lives kids but thinks she’d be a terrible mother?

Women aren’t choosing not to have kids AT YOU. This thread is bonkers.

On any individual level, you are right. But on a social/generational level, it is all our business. Because people with no family and kids will be more reliant on society and our tax dollars. Maybe it's because I come from a society with a strong emphasis on family. The expectation is that family takes care of each other. We don't rely on government help or policy. That attitude makes us, as a family unit, more resilient to the ups and downs of modern life and economic surprises. So yeah, when I see people freely choose to shun family (cutting off "toxic" family or not having kids when they can), I think it's selfish. And then when I hear all the people protesting for more government handouts and welfare, I get pretty annoyed. We are responsible for our own success and security in this life and family is the number one factor in obtaining that security.

Again, caveat about individual circumstances. But i think it's clear as a whole people are becoming more selfish and focusing more on themselves.

People are behaving rationally. We live in a late capitalism where basic living is very expensive, housing and education expenses are though the rough and wages are stagnant. Wealth is horded at the top. Covid really exposed to me that there is almost no social safety net. No one is going to give a shit about my kids but me and mine. I did not feel resilient during covid. I felt very isolated having two young children at home and almost no resources and still being expected to work like I didn't have children.

I don't blame younger people for deciding they don't want to bring children into this world. That if our society is selfish the most rational choice is to be selfish too.

But my whole point was that family is your safety net. Yes kids are a pain but they grow up to be adults, who hopefully will at least offer emotional support. When I am old and there is covid 100.0, I would rather have kids around to depend on (even if to just talk to), than to be alone. In my mind, the more I am on my own and feel like no one cares a crap about me, the more I want to make sure I have family. I guess we just think differently.

My friends are in their 50's / 60's and women friends are way more "helpful" and supportive than children or even husbands. After many having illnesses it's the community you create that is where you get emotional support.

Kids are off to college, living elsewhere, working hard, little leave, raising their own children, etc.

It's not kids.... maybe a sister but never kids.

Yes I agree not always kids. But you have a sister because your parents decided to have a decent sized family. And I agree kids are not that helpful but that is because that is the message they have received (the whole point of this thread): look out for themselves first.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s weird how angry it seems to make some people when a woman chooses not to have children. Maybe she wanted to but didn’t find the right guy (or didn’t find the right guy in time)? Maybe she wanted to but was afraid of burdening her theoretical offspring with heritable mental or physical illnesses? Maybe she hates kids? Maybe she lives kids but thinks she’d be a terrible mother?

Women aren’t choosing not to have kids AT YOU. This thread is bonkers.

On any individual level, you are right. But on a social/generational level, it is all our business. Because people with no family and kids will be more reliant on society and our tax dollars. Maybe it's because I come from a society with a strong emphasis on family. The expectation is that family takes care of each other. We don't rely on government help or policy. That attitude makes us, as a family unit, more resilient to the ups and downs of modern life and economic surprises. So yeah, when I see people freely choose to shun family (cutting off "toxic" family or not having kids when they can), I think it's selfish. And then when I hear all the people protesting for more government handouts and welfare, I get pretty annoyed. We are responsible for our own success and security in this life and family is the number one factor in obtaining that security.

Again, caveat about individual circumstances. But i think it's clear as a whole people are becoming more selfish and focusing more on themselves.

People are behaving rationally. We live in a late capitalism where basic living is very expensive, housing and education expenses are though the rough and wages are stagnant. Wealth is horded at the top. Covid really exposed to me that there is almost no social safety net. No one is going to give a shit about my kids but me and mine. I did not feel resilient during covid. I felt very isolated having two young children at home and almost no resources and still being expected to work like I didn't have children.

I don't blame younger people for deciding they don't want to bring children into this world. That if our society is selfish the most rational choice is to be selfish too.

But my whole point was that family is your safety net. Yes kids are a pain but they grow up to be adults, who hopefully will at least offer emotional support. When I am old and there is covid 100.0, I would rather have kids around to depend on (even if to just talk to), than to be alone. In my mind, the more I am on my own and feel like no one cares a crap about me, the more I want to make sure I have family. I guess we just think differently.

My friends are in their 50's / 60's and women friends are way more "helpful" and supportive than children or even husbands. After many having illnesses it's the community you create that is where you get emotional support.

Kids are off to college, living elsewhere, working hard, little leave, raising their own children, etc.

It's not kids.... maybe a sister but never kids.

Anonymous wrote:How many millennial men are willing & able to (a) be the sole provider so their wives can SAHM, or (b) take on 50% of house and kid responsibilities so their wives can also have a career? I guess option (c) is the men can SAHD but very few women are actually interested in that setup. There is your answer.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s weird how angry it seems to make some people when a woman chooses not to have children. Maybe she wanted to but didn’t find the right guy (or didn’t find the right guy in time)? Maybe she wanted to but was afraid of burdening her theoretical offspring with heritable mental or physical illnesses? Maybe she hates kids? Maybe she lives kids but thinks she’d be a terrible mother?

Women aren’t choosing not to have kids AT YOU. This thread is bonkers.

I just see this all the time and conservative rhetoric. Seem to take everything so personally

Conservative women often think that their life purpose is having and raising children, and are threatened when others choose not to do that. (And I see nothing wrong if they choose to focus on having a family, but not everyone has to do that).

Also they are clearly extremely upset when you tell them it's not an "accomplishment". It's their lifes work but in reality it's just for their own pleasure.

They are upset because they realize they just wasted their time talking to an idiot. If you think your career is more of an accomplishment than raising human beings, then you are delusional.

I never said my career was more of an accomplishment. Very few people have a major accomplishment in work or home. It's just life. Your child is not the 2nd coming and my computer programming paid the bills but really did not change anybody's life.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s weird how angry it seems to make some people when a woman chooses not to have children. Maybe she wanted to but didn’t find the right guy (or didn’t find the right guy in time)? Maybe she wanted to but was afraid of burdening her theoretical offspring with heritable mental or physical illnesses? Maybe she hates kids? Maybe she lives kids but thinks she’d be a terrible mother?

Women aren’t choosing not to have kids AT YOU. This thread is bonkers.

On any individual level, you are right. But on a social/generational level, it is all our business. Because people with no family and kids will be more reliant on society and our tax dollars. Maybe it's because I come from a society with a strong emphasis on family. The expectation is that family takes care of each other. We don't rely on government help or policy. That attitude makes us, as a family unit, more resilient to the ups and downs of modern life and economic surprises. So yeah, when I see people freely choose to shun family (cutting off "toxic" family or not having kids when they can), I think it's selfish. And then when I hear all the people protesting for more government handouts and welfare, I get pretty annoyed. We are responsible for our own success and security in this life and family is the number one factor in obtaining that security.

Again, caveat about individual circumstances. But i think it's clear as a whole people are becoming more selfish and focusing more on themselves.

People are behaving rationally. We live in a late capitalism where basic living is very expensive, housing and education expenses are though the rough and wages are stagnant. Wealth is horded at the top. Covid really exposed to me that there is almost no social safety net. No one is going to give a shit about my kids but me and mine. I did not feel resilient during covid. I felt very isolated having two young children at home and almost no resources and still being expected to work like I didn't have children.

I don't blame younger people for deciding they don't want to bring children into this world. That if our society is selfish the most rational choice is to be selfish too.

But my whole point was that family is your safety net. Yes kids are a pain but they grow up to be adults, who hopefully will at least offer emotional support. When I am old and there is covid 100.0, I would rather have kids around to depend on (even if to just talk to), than to be alone. In my mind, the more I am on my own and feel like no one cares a crap about me, the more I want to make sure I have family. I guess we just think differently.

My friends are in their 50's / 60's and women friends are way more "helpful" and supportive than children or even husbands. After many having illnesses it's the community you create that is where you get emotional support.

Kids are off to college, living elsewhere, working hard, little leave, raising their own children, etc.

It's not kids.... maybe a sister but never kids.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s weird how angry it seems to make some people when a woman chooses not to have children. Maybe she wanted to but didn’t find the right guy (or didn’t find the right guy in time)? Maybe she wanted to but was afraid of burdening her theoretical offspring with heritable mental or physical illnesses? Maybe she hates kids? Maybe she lives kids but thinks she’d be a terrible mother?

Women aren’t choosing not to have kids AT YOU. This thread is bonkers.

On any individual level, you are right. But on a social/generational level, it is all our business. Because people with no family and kids will be more reliant on society and our tax dollars. Maybe it's because I come from a society with a strong emphasis on family. The expectation is that family takes care of each other. We don't rely on government help or policy. That attitude makes us, as a family unit, more resilient to the ups and downs of modern life and economic surprises. So yeah, when I see people freely choose to shun family (cutting off "toxic" family or not having kids when they can), I think it's selfish. And then when I hear all the people protesting for more government handouts and welfare, I get pretty annoyed. We are responsible for our own success and security in this life and family is the number one factor in obtaining that security.

Again, caveat about individual circumstances. But i think it's clear as a whole people are becoming more selfish and focusing more on themselves.

People are behaving rationally. We live in a late capitalism where basic living is very expensive, housing and education expenses are though the rough and wages are stagnant. Wealth is horded at the top. Covid really exposed to me that there is almost no social safety net. No one is going to give a shit about my kids but me and mine. I did not feel resilient during covid. I felt very isolated having two young children at home and almost no resources and still being expected to work like I didn't have children.

I don't blame younger people for deciding they don't want to bring children into this world. That if our society is selfish the most rational choice is to be selfish too.

This is hysterical. People have never had better living conditions. This is the safest and most prosperous time ever on earth.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s weird how angry it seems to make some people when a woman chooses not to have children. Maybe she wanted to but didn’t find the right guy (or didn’t find the right guy in time)? Maybe she wanted to but was afraid of burdening her theoretical offspring with heritable mental or physical illnesses? Maybe she hates kids? Maybe she lives kids but thinks she’d be a terrible mother?

Women aren’t choosing not to have kids AT YOU. This thread is bonkers.

On any individual level, you are right. But on a social/generational level, it is all our business. Because people with no family and kids will be more reliant on society and our tax dollars. Maybe it's because I come from a society with a strong emphasis on family. The expectation is that family takes care of each other. We don't rely on government help or policy. That attitude makes us, as a family unit, more resilient to the ups and downs of modern life and economic surprises. So yeah, when I see people freely choose to shun family (cutting off "toxic" family or not having kids when they can), I think it's selfish. And then when I hear all the people protesting for more government handouts and welfare, I get pretty annoyed. We are responsible for our own success and security in this life and family is the number one factor in obtaining that security.

Again, caveat about individual circumstances. But i think it's clear as a whole people are becoming more selfish and focusing more on themselves.

People are behaving rationally. We live in a late capitalism where basic living is very expensive, housing and education expenses are though the rough and wages are stagnant. Wealth is horded at the top. Covid really exposed to me that there is almost no social safety net. No one is going to give a shit about my kids but me and mine. I did not feel resilient during covid. I felt very isolated having two young children at home and almost no resources and still being expected to work like I didn't have children.

I don't blame younger people for deciding they don't want to bring children into this world. That if our society is selfish the most rational choice is to be selfish too.

But my whole point was that family is your safety net. Yes kids are a pain but they grow up to be adults, who hopefully will at least offer emotional support. When I am old and there is covid 100.0, I would rather have kids around to depend on (even if to just talk to), than to be alone. In my mind, the more I am on my own and feel like no one cares a crap about me, the more I want to make sure I have family. I guess we just think differently.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s weird how angry it seems to make some people when a woman chooses not to have children. Maybe she wanted to but didn’t find the right guy (or didn’t find the right guy in time)? Maybe she wanted to but was afraid of burdening her theoretical offspring with heritable mental or physical illnesses? Maybe she hates kids? Maybe she lives kids but thinks she’d be a terrible mother?

Women aren’t choosing not to have kids AT YOU. This thread is bonkers.

I just see this all the time and conservative rhetoric. Seem to take everything so personally

Conservative women often think that their life purpose is having and raising children, and are threatened when others choose not to do that. (And I see nothing wrong if they choose to focus on having a family, but not everyone has to do that).

Also they are clearly extremely upset when you tell them it's not an "accomplishment". It's their lifes work but in reality it's just for their own pleasure.

They are upset because they realize they just wasted their time talking to an idiot. If you think your career is more of an accomplishment than raising human beings, then you are delusional.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s weird how angry it seems to make some people when a woman chooses not to have children. Maybe she wanted to but didn’t find the right guy (or didn’t find the right guy in time)? Maybe she wanted to but was afraid of burdening her theoretical offspring with heritable mental or physical illnesses? Maybe she hates kids? Maybe she lives kids but thinks she’d be a terrible mother?

Women aren’t choosing not to have kids AT YOU. This thread is bonkers.

I just see this all the time and conservative rhetoric. Seem to take everything so personally

Conservative women often think that their life purpose is having and raising children, and are threatened when others choose not to do that. (And I see nothing wrong if they choose to focus on having a family, but not everyone has to do that).

Also they are clearly extremely upset when you tell them it's not an "accomplishment". It's their lifes work but in reality it's just for their own pleasure.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s weird how angry it seems to make some people when a woman chooses not to have children. Maybe she wanted to but didn’t find the right guy (or didn’t find the right guy in time)? Maybe she wanted to but was afraid of burdening her theoretical offspring with heritable mental or physical illnesses? Maybe she hates kids? Maybe she lives kids but thinks she’d be a terrible mother?

Women aren’t choosing not to have kids AT YOU. This thread is bonkers.

On any individual level, you are right. But on a social/generational level, it is all our business. Because people with no family and kids will be more reliant on society and our tax dollars. Maybe it's because I come from a society with a strong emphasis on family. The expectation is that family takes care of each other. We don't rely on government help or policy. That attitude makes us, as a family unit, more resilient to the ups and downs of modern life and economic surprises. So yeah, when I see people freely choose to shun family (cutting off "toxic" family or not having kids when they can), I think it's selfish. And then when I hear all the people protesting for more government handouts and welfare, I get pretty annoyed. We are responsible for our own success and security in this life and family is the number one factor in obtaining that security.

Again, caveat about individual circumstances. But i think it's clear as a whole people are becoming more selfish and focusing more on themselves.

People are behaving rationally. We live in a late capitalism where basic living is very expensive, housing and education expenses are though the rough and wages are stagnant. Wealth is horded at the top. Covid really exposed to me that there is almost no social safety net. No one is going to give a shit about my kids but me and mine. I did not feel resilient during covid. I felt very isolated having two young children at home and almost no resources and still being expected to work like I didn't have children.

I don't blame younger people for deciding they don't want to bring children into this world. That if our society is selfish the most rational choice is to be selfish too.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Raising kids has always been difficult and lots of work. Difference is whereas people in the old days knew they needed kids (to support them in old age, to have family support in general), people today don't think they need kids anymore. They think because they have their degrees and hobbies and friends, they don't need family or kids anymore. There is an argument that the bigger the govt safety net, the less people think they need family (and kids). So while kids have always been a tremendous sacrifice, the cost analysis just isn't there anymore.

Caveat that i'm talking about millennials in general. On individual level, I recognize many would love to have kids but just never found the right partner. But as a generation, if enough people feel like they can be comfortable and happy and self sufficient without family, then the rate of coupling/marriage will go down.

For this to be true, the increase in childlessness is driven by a decrease in the perceived “need” to have children. But how many of us parents or would-be parents on DCUM would put ourselves in the category of pursuing parenthood out of need vs. because we knew we would “love to have kids”? I think basically zero. So if basically none of the parents on DCUM had kids out of need, then it doesn’t seem that PP’s theory does much to explain millennials’ behavior vs. Gen X or boomers.

If you loved being a kid, I think it’s natural to want to have kids and to look forward to the raising-kids life stage. Maybe there’s data to show that millennials didn’t love being kids themselves as much as previous generations. Could that be because amongst millennials there are more children of divorce, children of addiction, children with absent fathers, children of bankruptcy, fewer free-range children, etc.? That’s my theory.

In my experience it's because millennials have siblings/close friends that have died from gun violence, cancer or other childhood illnesses.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Raising kids has always been difficult and lots of work. Difference is whereas people in the old days knew they needed kids (to support them in old age, to have family support in general), people today don't think they need kids anymore. They think because they have their degrees and hobbies and friends, they don't need family or kids anymore. There is an argument that the bigger the govt safety net, the less people think they need family (and kids). So while kids have always been a tremendous sacrifice, the cost analysis just isn't there anymore.

Caveat that i'm talking about millennials in general. On individual level, I recognize many would love to have kids but just never found the right partner. But as a generation, if enough people feel like they can be comfortable and happy and self sufficient without family, then the rate of coupling/marriage will go down.

For this to be true, the increase in childlessness is driven by a decrease in the perceived “need” to have children. But how many of us parents or would-be parents on DCUM would put ourselves in the category of pursuing parenthood out of need vs. because we knew we would “love to have kids”? I think basically zero. So if basically none of the parents on DCUM had kids out of need, then it doesn’t seem that PP’s theory does much to explain millennials’ behavior vs. Gen X or boomers.

If you loved being a kid, I think it’s natural to want to have kids and to look forward to the raising-kids life stage. Maybe there’s data to show that millennials didn’t love being kids themselves as much as previous generations. Could that be because amongst millennials there are more children of divorce, children of addiction, children with absent fathers, children of bankruptcy, fewer free-range children, etc.? That’s my theory.

Anonymous wrote:Raising kids has always been difficult and lots of work. Difference is whereas people in the old days knew they needed kids (to support them in old age, to have family support in general), people today don't think they need kids anymore. They think because they have their degrees and hobbies and friends, they don't need family or kids anymore. There is an argument that the bigger the govt safety net, the less people think they need family (and kids). So while kids have always been a tremendous sacrifice, the cost analysis just isn't there anymore.

Caveat that i'm talking about millennials in general. On individual level, I recognize many would love to have kids but just never found the right partner. But as a generation, if enough people feel like they can be comfortable and happy and self sufficient without family, then the rate of coupling/marriage will go down.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s weird how angry it seems to make some people when a woman chooses not to have children. Maybe she wanted to but didn’t find the right guy (or didn’t find the right guy in time)? Maybe she wanted to but was afraid of burdening her theoretical offspring with heritable mental or physical illnesses? Maybe she hates kids? Maybe she lives kids but thinks she’d be a terrible mother?

Women aren’t choosing not to have kids AT YOU. This thread is bonkers.

On any individual level, you are right. But on a social/generational level, it is all our business. Because people with no family and kids will be more reliant on society and our tax dollars. Maybe it's because I come from a society with a strong emphasis on family. The expectation is that family takes care of each other. We don't rely on government help or policy. That attitude makes us, as a family unit, more resilient to the ups and downs of modern life and economic surprises. So yeah, when I see people freely choose to shun family (cutting off "toxic" family or not having kids when they can), I think it's selfish. And then when I hear all the people protesting for more government handouts and welfare, I get pretty annoyed. We are responsible for our own success and security in this life and family is the number one factor in obtaining that security.

Again, caveat about individual circumstances. But i think it's clear as a whole people are becoming more selfish and focusing more on themselves.

People are behaving rationally. We live in a late capitalism where basic living is very expensive, housing and education expenses are though the rough and wages are stagnant. Wealth is horded at the top. Covid really exposed to me that there is almost no social safety net. No one is going to give a shit about my kids but me and mine. I did not feel resilient during covid. I felt very isolated having two young children at home and almost no resources and still being expected to work like I didn't have children.

I don't blame younger people for deciding they don't want to bring children into this world. That if our society is selfish the most rational choice is to be selfish too.

+1. After they left parents of young kids, and kids generally, twisting in the wind, I do. not. care. about anyone out of obligation.

Literally get out of my way or I will move you.

Where are you going?