Anonymous
Post 10/13/2022 16:02     Subject: Why are people here so averse to pushing their kids?
My parents pushed me. And pushed. And pushed. I’m very successful now. Got the A’s, then h the fancy degrees, and now a fancy job title. And almost no relationship with my parents, who drilled it in to me that I would never, ever be good enough, because there was always another accomplishment to be gotten.
Anonymous
Post 10/13/2022 15:58     Subject: Why are people here so averse to pushing their kids?
Some of us don’t look at life as a competition to be won. There is more than collecting achievements. Some of the people who contribute the most to our society do not have a glittering resume.
Anonymous
Post 10/13/2022 14:12     Subject: Why are people here so averse to pushing their kids?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:

For the people who worry that their kids need certain credentials to get into a good college, and need that good college to have a successful life, add me to the chorus of anecdotal evidence that says that’s simply not true. DH and I both went to state schools — me for financial reasons, him because he’s never been particularly ambitious — and we both got into top 10 law schools from there. Once you were in, which college you went to basically never mattered again. We’ve told our middle schooler that we know she’ll get into college *somewhere* no matter what, and it doesn’t have to be a particular ranking or a particular school unless she chooses to set her sights on that. I’m already glad we made that choice, it’s so much pressure off everyone’s shoulders for the years to come
.

Things are far more competitive now to go to your local state school, and certainly to get into a top 10 law school. And I'm sure that to get into that top ten law school, both you and your spouse had to be top students at your state school. Rankings and hard work and focus and drive still matter--you're deluding yourself if you think otherwise, and misleading your kids..

-- law school professor


OP here. Right?!! That PP makes me so mad. Saying shit like “we’re above it all, the college admissions rat race doesn’t apply to us, DC can go to Podunk State U and still end up at HYSCCN for law school” makes me angry. First, you’re just kicking the can down the road — work ethic, academic excellence, discipline, and prestige still matter to you, but for law school. And then there’s the factor that getting into Big Law out of law school has become infinitely more competitive — so your kids will still be subject to a rat race that’s infinitely more competitive than the one you went through.


Why would you be mad? Wouldn’t it make more sense for you to be happy the PP kids are not competing with yours? Someone is gotta be average!
BTW, l don’t push my kids because l am lazy and l also don’t care if they are average


If your kids are average, the future isn't looking good. Read "Average is Over" by Tyler Cowen.
Anonymous
Post 10/11/2022 20:36     Subject: Why are people here so averse to pushing their kids?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:

For the people who worry that their kids need certain credentials to get into a good college, and need that good college to have a successful life, add me to the chorus of anecdotal evidence that says that’s simply not true. DH and I both went to state schools — me for financial reasons, him because he’s never been particularly ambitious — and we both got into top 10 law schools from there. Once you were in, which college you went to basically never mattered again. We’ve told our middle schooler that we know she’ll get into college *somewhere* no matter what, and it doesn’t have to be a particular ranking or a particular school unless she chooses to set her sights on that. I’m already glad we made that choice, it’s so much pressure off everyone’s shoulders for the years to come
.

Things are far more competitive now to go to your local state school, and certainly to get into a top 10 law school. And I'm sure that to get into that top ten law school, both you and your spouse had to be top students at your state school. Rankings and hard work and focus and drive still matter--you're deluding yourself if you think otherwise, and misleading your kids..

-- law school professor


OP here. Right?!! That PP makes me so mad. Saying shit like “we’re above it all, the college admissions rat race doesn’t apply to us, DC can go to Podunk State U and still end up at HYSCCN for law school” makes me angry. First, you’re just kicking the can down the road — work ethic, academic excellence, discipline, and prestige still matter to you, but for law school. And then there’s the factor that getting into Big Law out of law school has become infinitely more competitive — so your kids will still be subject to a rat race that’s infinitely more competitive than the one you went through.


Why would you be mad? Wouldn’t it make more sense for you to be happy the PP kids are not competing with yours? Someone is gotta be average!
BTW, l don’t push my kids because l am lazy and l also don’t care if they are average
Anonymous
Post 10/11/2022 19:57     Subject: Why are people here so averse to pushing their kids?
Anonymous wrote:

For the people who worry that their kids need certain credentials to get into a good college, and need that good college to have a successful life, add me to the chorus of anecdotal evidence that says that’s simply not true. DH and I both went to state schools — me for financial reasons, him because he’s never been particularly ambitious — and we both got into top 10 law schools from there. Once you were in, which college you went to basically never mattered again. We’ve told our middle schooler that we know she’ll get into college *somewhere* no matter what, and it doesn’t have to be a particular ranking or a particular school unless she chooses to set her sights on that. I’m already glad we made that choice, it’s so much pressure off everyone’s shoulders for the years to come
.

Things are far more competitive now to go to your local state school, and certainly to get into a top 10 law school. And I'm sure that to get into that top ten law school, both you and your spouse had to be top students at your state school. Rankings and hard work and focus and drive still matter--you're deluding yourself if you think otherwise, and misleading your kids..

-- law school professor


OP here. Right?!! That PP makes me so mad. Saying shit like “we’re above it all, the college admissions rat race doesn’t apply to us, DC can go to Podunk State U and still end up at HYSCCN for law school” makes me angry. First, you’re just kicking the can down the road — work ethic, academic excellence, discipline, and prestige still matter to you, but for law school. And then there’s the factor that getting into Big Law out of law school has become infinitely more competitive — so your kids will still be subject to a rat race that’s infinitely more competitive than the one you went through.
Anonymous
Post 10/11/2022 18:04     Subject: Why are people here so averse to pushing their kids?


For the people who worry that their kids need certain credentials to get into a good college, and need that good college to have a successful life, add me to the chorus of anecdotal evidence that says that’s simply not true. DH and I both went to state schools — me for financial reasons, him because he’s never been particularly ambitious — and we both got into top 10 law schools from there. Once you were in, which college you went to basically never mattered again. We’ve told our middle schooler that we know she’ll get into college *somewhere* no matter what, and it doesn’t have to be a particular ranking or a particular school unless she chooses to set her sights on that. I’m already glad we made that choice, it’s so much pressure off everyone’s shoulders for the years to come
.

Things are far more competitive now to go to your local state school, and certainly to get into a top 10 law school. And I'm sure that to get into that top ten law school, both you and your spouse had to be top students at your state school. Rankings and hard work and focus and drive still matter--you're deluding yourself if you think otherwise, and misleading your kids..

-- law school professor
Anonymous
Post 10/11/2022 17:30     Subject: Why are people here so averse to pushing their kids?
Anonymous wrote:

Do you really though? Left to their own devices, they’ll find interests of their own. But it may not be interests you value or on your preferred timeline. Therein lies the issue. You’re still seeing their lives and choices as a reflection of you.

I have a kid who has a little neighborhood side hustle with a friend. They mow lawns, rake, weed, trim hedges, etc. They make a couple hundred a week but he doesn’t even spend the money on anything as we buy his clothes, pay for his tennis lessons, lift tickets, gadgets, etc. He just wants to see the money adding up in his bank account.

Anyway, he’d rather do this than join any of the ~ 60 or so school clubs at his high school. Like newspaper or debate team or something that might look “good” on a college application. Right now he only does tennis in the spring and water polo in the winter. But no academic clubs because he wants to focus on his “business” lol. Are we supposed to say no? At least he’s doing something. It is what it is.


It seems a shame that he’s not exploring other interests because he’s already yoked to a job…he has his whole life to live like that.


I knew a kid like this. He worked at a pizza restaurant from middle school and saved all his money. He saved a considerable amount, but all his free time he was working. He dropped out the first year of college because he didn't have strong study habits working at pizza restaurant, instead of studying. He may become an entrepreneur, it's possible, but it will be a tough path without a college degree.
Anonymous
Post 10/11/2022 17:20     Subject: Why are people here so averse to pushing their kids?
No one pushed me in childhood and I do have a strong work ethics. Maybe it's learnt by example?

So I'm kind of reluctant to push DC very hard. I feel like I don't have a right to do it.
Anonymous
Post 10/11/2022 17:20     Subject: Why are people here so averse to pushing their kids?
Anonymous wrote:People are averse to pushing kids because they most likely have a fat nest egg/inheritance. Why bother if kids inherit 5 mill each?


I mean, this is our kids and I am adverse to pushing them too much BUT with the major caveat that we'll (hopefully) be old when we die and then so will they.

Inheritances are only meaningful imho if they are multimillion dollar trust funds that you get to access in your 20s.

Does it matter so much if you inherit ~ 5 mil in your fifties or sixties? It helps and it's definitely nicer to have than not but it won't change your life or choices.
Anonymous
Post 10/11/2022 17:15     Subject: Re:Why are people here so averse to pushing their kids?
I pushed my kid into sports (golf and soccer) and music (guitar and piano) when he was five years old, and he absolutely hated it when he turned twelve years old. Around that time, I hired a D1 soccer athlete to live at my house and trained my kid into an athlete in the summer of 7th and 8th grade. My kid trained everyday with the D1 athlete from 6:30am until 1pm and he practiced music from 3pm until 6pm everyday during the summer. The D1 athlete also taught him social skills and how to talk to girls. He also showed my kid how to have a healthy diet if his goal is to play D1 college. My kid ended up as a four years starter in varsity in golf (spring) and soccer (spring). He played for a Power-5 school and met his trust fund wife at the school (she actually asked him out on a date). Men and women want to hang out with people who have talents, especially college athletes who actually graduated from college with a useful degrees. Nobody wants to hang out with unmotivated losers.
Anonymous
Post 10/11/2022 16:06     Subject: Why are people here so averse to pushing their kids?
OP come back when your kids are in college or 18 and tell us how it went for you with your demanding parenting and not giving them much choice. Trust me your kids will relish the day they can make their own decisions and be away from your ridiculous stringent parenting. Unless of course you plan to tell them what they will major in in college...
Anonymous
Post 10/11/2022 15:29     Subject: Why are people here so averse to pushing their kids?
Thought of this thread when I read this article today:

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022/10/why-are-kids-so-sad.html

It’s a bit rambling, but the relevant bit is that kids need autonomy in order to develop “the sense that your choices and actions affect your life, that they matter” (what psychologists call an “internal locus of control”). By contrast, having one’s life controlled by others (an “external locus of control”) has been shown to correlate with “hopelessness, depression, and suicidiality.”

The teen depression crisis is being driven by a perfect storm of societal-level factors, and there’s only so much one family can do to counteract all that. But giving the kids some control over their own decisions and choices may be one of the biggest.

For the people who worry that their kids need certain credentials to get into a good college, and need that good college to have a successful life, add me to the chorus of anecdotal evidence that says that’s simply not true. DH and I both went to state schools — me for financial reasons, him because he’s never been particularly ambitious — and we both got into top 10 law schools from there. Once you were in, which college you went to basically never mattered again. We’ve told our middle schooler that we know she’ll get into college *somewhere* no matter what, and it doesn’t have to be a particular ranking or a particular school unless she chooses to set her sights on that. I’m already glad we made that choice, it’s so much pressure off everyone’s shoulders for the years to come.
Anonymous
Post 10/08/2022 16:52     Subject: Why are people here so averse to pushing their kids?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I’ve been trying hard to ignore this thread but people need to hear another good why. I don’t push my kids in the way OP suggests is healthy because last year one of my friends died by suicide. He had a perfect life on paper and had always achieved and pushed for the next level. His father, even in his adulthood, pushed him relentlessly and made clear that he should always be achieving more. Nothing was good enough unless he exceeded the father’s accomplishments, which are too public and well-known to write about here. In our modern competitive world, it would be nearly impossible to pull that off two generations in a row.

We all loved my friend but now he is gone, because he got the message from the time he was a child that he was only his accomplishments and nothing would ever be enough.

I support my kids. I encourage them. I don’t push them because I want them to know they are enough and they are loved for who they are.


Thanks for posting this.


So sorry about your friend. But normally, people who are mentally ill enough to commit suicide would’ve done it no matter how hard their parents pushed. I have a feeling even if your friend had “gentle parents” they still would’ve died.


I disagree. So much of life begins with nature (genetic predisposition) but is then influenced by nurture (environmental influences). I believe we may be pointed in certain directions biologically, but our experiences and influences along the way certainly are influential, as well.

For some kids (and adults), external pressure by their parents will have marginal impact, either because they're not particularly sensitive to (natural temprament) it or because their mental health is just not that close to the "edge". Other kids (and adults) are far more sensitive to parental input and pressure, some of whom are naturally very tightly wound, anxious, or depressed already.

Those are the high-risk kids (and adults) - the ones whose internal voice + environmental influences both tell them a story of "not good enough". Again, most fall far short of suicide, of course. But even so, there's a lot of avoidable suffering due to anxiety and depression . . . .


Okay. So what do you do when you have a kid predisposed to anxiety or depression? Not push them at all?

The fact is, we all need to do some amount of pushing if we don't want failure to launch kids. Everyone (except for the trust funders) needs to hold down a relatively well-paying job to support themselves. So we need to push our kids to develop the work ethic, discipline, and habits necessary to build up to that. Being predisposed to mental illness doesn't change that.


OP, your view here is unpopular but I agree. In fact, I’d argue that kids with anxiety or depression ESPECIALLY need to be pushed — it’s one of tje core features of CBT/DBT.


You can push them once they are stable and with the guidance of a therapist. It is not going to look anything like what DCUM considers pushing kids academically. It might be a goal of attending school every day. Or submitting an assignment even if the student doesn’t think it is good enough.
Anonymous
Post 10/08/2022 16:46     Subject: Why are people here so averse to pushing their kids?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I’ve been trying hard to ignore this thread but people need to hear another good why. I don’t push my kids in the way OP suggests is healthy because last year one of my friends died by suicide. He had a perfect life on paper and had always achieved and pushed for the next level. His father, even in his adulthood, pushed him relentlessly and made clear that he should always be achieving more. Nothing was good enough unless he exceeded the father’s accomplishments, which are too public and well-known to write about here. In our modern competitive world, it would be nearly impossible to pull that off two generations in a row.

We all loved my friend but now he is gone, because he got the message from the time he was a child that he was only his accomplishments and nothing would ever be enough.

I support my kids. I encourage them. I don’t push them because I want them to know they are enough and they are loved for who they are.


Thanks for posting this.


So sorry about your friend. But normally, people who are mentally ill enough to commit suicide would’ve done it no matter how hard their parents pushed. I have a feeling even if your friend had “gentle parents” they still would’ve died.


I disagree. So much of life begins with nature (genetic predisposition) but is then influenced by nurture (environmental influences). I believe we may be pointed in certain directions biologically, but our experiences and influences along the way certainly are influential, as well.

For some kids (and adults), external pressure by their parents will have marginal impact, either because they're not particularly sensitive to (natural temprament) it or because their mental health is just not that close to the "edge". Other kids (and adults) are far more sensitive to parental input and pressure, some of whom are naturally very tightly wound, anxious, or depressed already.

Those are the high-risk kids (and adults) - the ones whose internal voice + environmental influences both tell them a story of "not good enough". Again, most fall far short of suicide, of course. But even so, there's a lot of avoidable suffering due to anxiety and depression . . . .


Okay. So what do you do when you have a kid predisposed to anxiety or depression? Not push them at all?

The fact is, we all need to do some amount of pushing if we don't want failure to launch kids. Everyone (except for the trust funders) needs to hold down a relatively well-paying job to support themselves. So we need to push our kids to develop the work ethic, discipline, and habits necessary to build up to that. Being predisposed to mental illness doesn't change that.


OP, your view here is unpopular but I agree. In fact, I’d argue that kids with anxiety or depression ESPECIALLY need to be pushed — it’s one of tje core features of CBT/DBT.
Anonymous
Post 10/08/2022 13:19     Subject: Why are people here so averse to pushing their kids?
If a child is mentally healthy, you can push them within reason. However, when there is already mental illness, you need to proceed more carefully. It’s comparable to physical health in that respect. You can push your healthy kid to exercise hard every day, but wouldn’t do the same to a medically fragile child with the idea that they had to build grit and resilience.