I don’t think anyone has argued that AP courses are necessarily amazing, just that some AP courses at some schools are (or, at schools that dropped them, were) amazing. A rigid rubric doesn’t have to mean a rigid lecture or class discussion.

I can see the point that the private schools don’t want to teach the rubric, and without teaching the rubric their kids aren’t getting the scores the parents expect. That’s a fine reason to drop APs. But it also means there’s no easy way to confirm that what your school is teaching in Calculus, or US History, is what any other school is teaching under that title. High schools that drop APs are trading very heavily on their reputation, and it stops working if your kid wants to go anywhere that’s beyond the reach of that reputation, whether that’s overseas or to someplace like UGA.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^ and here is a specific example of some ridiculous stuff from the calc free response rubric from a former grader. You can definitely see that solid knowledge sometimes goes unrewarded and nonsense gets rewarded so long as it fits the standardized rubric. And this is from a math test, which you think would be much easier to standardize than history or literature! This is not to bash AP, because there are benefits to having a standardized test too. But I’m glad my kid is also taking non-AP courses in addition to the APs.

https://www.lehigh.edu/~shw2/ap2001.html

This is from 2001. There’s a reasonable chance things have changed somewhat in the ensuing almost quarter of a century.

Unless reality has changed with respect to the difficulties of standardizing a rubric, then I am willing to bet they have not. I used to consult for Pearson, and it's a challenging feat.

How long ago did you consult?

Off and on for the past 15 years with various test companies. Pearson was the biggest. Last time was right before pandemic. I did not work on high school exams but they were various writing based exams and coming up with rubrics for graders that result in reliability for a standardized exam is not the same as getting a bunch of highly trained pros in a field and telling them to use their expert judgment. You’re basically telling people to grade like robots by following an algorithm that leaves no room for personal judgment.

And if you don’t believe me, there are plenty of teachers who graded for recent AP history exams who are still saying that mediocre writing can get full marks. You just have to be familiar with what elements they expect to see in a formulaic way. I’m not against standardized exams by any means but I’m really surprised there are people in this thread who think AP classes and exams are so amazing. They are just okay. They are a good way to standardize courses between schools.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^ and here is a specific example of some ridiculous stuff from the calc free response rubric from a former grader. You can definitely see that solid knowledge sometimes goes unrewarded and nonsense gets rewarded so long as it fits the standardized rubric. And this is from a math test, which you think would be much easier to standardize than history or literature! This is not to bash AP, because there are benefits to having a standardized test too. But I’m glad my kid is also taking non-AP courses in addition to the APs.

https://www.lehigh.edu/~shw2/ap2001.html

This is from 2001. There’s a reasonable chance things have changed somewhat in the ensuing almost quarter of a century.

Unless reality has changed with respect to the difficulties of standardizing a rubric, then I am willing to bet they have not. I used to consult for Pearson, and it's a challenging feat.

How long ago did you consult?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^ and here is a specific example of some ridiculous stuff from the calc free response rubric from a former grader. You can definitely see that solid knowledge sometimes goes unrewarded and nonsense gets rewarded so long as it fits the standardized rubric. And this is from a math test, which you think would be much easier to standardize than history or literature! This is not to bash AP, because there are benefits to having a standardized test too. But I’m glad my kid is also taking non-AP courses in addition to the APs.

https://www.lehigh.edu/~shw2/ap2001.html

This is from 2001. There’s a reasonable chance things have changed somewhat in the ensuing almost quarter of a century.

Unless reality has changed with respect to the difficulties of standardizing a rubric, then I am willing to bet they have not. I used to consult for Pearson, and it's a challenging feat.

Anonymous wrote:^^ and here is a specific example of some ridiculous stuff from the calc free response rubric from a former grader. You can definitely see that solid knowledge sometimes goes unrewarded and nonsense gets rewarded so long as it fits the standardized rubric. And this is from a math test, which you think would be much easier to standardize than history or literature! This is not to bash AP, because there are benefits to having a standardized test too. But I’m glad my kid is also taking non-AP courses in addition to the APs.

https://www.lehigh.edu/~shw2/ap2001.html

This is from 2001. There’s a reasonable chance things have changed somewhat in the ensuing almost quarter of a century.

^^ and here is a specific example of some ridiculous stuff from the calc free response rubric from a former grader. You can definitely see that solid knowledge sometimes goes unrewarded and nonsense gets rewarded so long as it fits the standardized rubric. And this is from a math test, which you think would be much easier to standardize than history or literature! This is not to bash AP, because there are benefits to having a standardized test too. But I’m glad my kid is also taking non-AP courses in addition to the APs.

https://www.lehigh.edu/~shw2/ap2001.html

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DC will apply to colleges in Europe and needs APs. Otherwise quite high performing but only got 4s on the ones he self studied (no support or reviewing from school). Based on other performance I’d think he would have gotten 5s if he had been learning the AP curriculum all year similar to his friends that are at public schools. It’s hard fitting in learning all of the additional content on your own when there’s already other school work that’s more pressing.

Did he actually study AP rubrics and test strategies, or did he just try to learn content? DD is also looking at schools abroad (UK) and is at a private that offers APs and she sat for her first APs this spring. My impression is that the school did a good job preparing the kids for the AP exam. They did more than just matching the syllabus to the exam. They went further by familiarizing the kids with the grading rubric for the essay and short answer portions of the exams. It's best to learn what the graders are looking for and what kind of answers fulfill certain requirements. All this information is in the test prep books like Barron's or Princeton Review, but I'll bet many kids probably don't bother with the exam strategy and are just trying to memorize the content.

Modern AP tests are not just content memorization tests. They are mostly analysis and application that requires a broad background in the material and themes of the subject.

They require a very specific kind of application, due to the need for strict standardization. Just because you are good at analysis does not guarantee you will do well on one of those tests. And you can write horribly and still get a 5 so long as you hit the right points in a way that is simply comprehensible to the grader. I have heard about specific (ridiculous) examples that graders have complained about, where even though it is clear the student understood a topic well and made a good connection, they could not award points because a specific item was required by the rubric. Understandably, the college board values high consistency between graders and there is a trade off in flexibility. Our kid’s teachers have pretty much stuck to that style of rubric when grading the course work so the kids understand what to do on the test. I have a kid who sometimes likes to think divergently when writing essays and so I’m glad she took an AP specific course. She had no problem getting all 5s but definitely might not have stuck to AP approved answers she had self studied.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just avoid any school that both has no AP AND doesn't offer the tests.

I think only GDS around here falls into that category.

That way you always have the option to take the test if you want.

You can sign up to take tests at Whitman, Churchill and Basis so it's not a big deal.

For anyone who cares, you can ask the teachers what is different about their class vs the AP and most can specifically explain what is different about their class. APs are required to follow a certain order and use AP tests/quizzes. For some private school advanced/upper level classes that replaced APs, the course will cover the AP information, but not on the schedule or using the quizzes/test the AP prescribes. Or they may omit a section in favor of another or add in something extra (ie labs, different novels, extra text books/primary sources, etc).

All of the standardized tests have tricks and hacks to get the best score. Dedicated AP classes will focus on those throughout the year. It is 99% teaching to the test if they want students to get a 5. Many will take practice tests or do many practice questions so that test day is totally familiar.

A good instructor will hammer those tricks in. But that's the debate here - is it more important for your DC to learn the test or more about that field of study?

It's close to impossible to do both well, not in the limited time.

Then what is the value of these classes if they're all about learning tricks and hacks? This is a pretty cynical approach.

PP is simply wrong.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DC will apply to colleges in Europe and needs APs. Otherwise quite high performing but only got 4s on the ones he self studied (no support or reviewing from school). Based on other performance I’d think he would have gotten 5s if he had been learning the AP curriculum all year similar to his friends that are at public schools. It’s hard fitting in learning all of the additional content on your own when there’s already other school work that’s more pressing.

Did he actually study AP rubrics and test strategies, or did he just try to learn content? DD is also looking at schools abroad (UK) and is at a private that offers APs and she sat for her first APs this spring. My impression is that the school did a good job preparing the kids for the AP exam. They did more than just matching the syllabus to the exam. They went further by familiarizing the kids with the grading rubric for the essay and short answer portions of the exams. It's best to learn what the graders are looking for and what kind of answers fulfill certain requirements. All this information is in the test prep books like Barron's or Princeton Review, but I'll bet many kids probably don't bother with the exam strategy and are just trying to memorize the content.

Modern AP tests are not just content memorization tests. They are mostly analysis and application that requires a broad background in the material and themes of the subject.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just avoid any school that both has no AP AND doesn't offer the tests.

I think only GDS around here falls into that category.

That way you always have the option to take the test if you want.

You can sign up to take tests at Whitman, Churchill and Basis so it's not a big deal.

For anyone who cares, you can ask the teachers what is different about their class vs the AP and most can specifically explain what is different about their class. APs are required to follow a certain order and use AP tests/quizzes. For some private school advanced/upper level classes that replaced APs, the course will cover the AP information, but not on the schedule or using the quizzes/test the AP prescribes. Or they may omit a section in favor of another or add in something extra (ie labs, different novels, extra text books/primary sources, etc).

All of the standardized tests have tricks and hacks to get the best score. Dedicated AP classes will focus on those throughout the year. It is 99% teaching to the test if they want students to get a 5. Many will take practice tests or do many practice questions so that test day is totally familiar.

A good instructor will hammer those tricks in. But that's the debate here - is it more important for your DC to learn the test or more about that field of study?

It's close to impossible to do both well, not in the limited time.

Then what is the value of these classes if they're all about learning tricks and hacks? This is a pretty cynical approach.

The principal value is the score the kid can get on the test. You can be sure that the teacher's success rate is tracked that way by management. Can't have someone teaching AP if the kids aren't acing the test at the end. It's a self-fulfilling cycle.

Anyone who wants to know the tricks can go to YouTube and search "How to get a 5 on AP test" then see the flood of results. Watch a few and ask yourself how they compare to really learning the subject like you would in college.

The tips and tricks are not the substance of the course, obviously. And You Tube may not be your best source. It really sounds like you haven't been in an AP classroom lately, so you may not be the best source either.

Anonymous wrote:DC will apply to colleges in Europe and needs APs. Otherwise quite high performing but only got 4s on the ones he self studied (no support or reviewing from school). Based on other performance I’d think he would have gotten 5s if he had been learning the AP curriculum all year similar to his friends that are at public schools. It’s hard fitting in learning all of the additional content on your own when there’s already other school work that’s more pressing.

Did he actually study AP rubrics and test strategies, or did he just try to learn content? DD is also looking at schools abroad (UK) and is at a private that offers APs and she sat for her first APs this spring. My impression is that the school did a good job preparing the kids for the AP exam. They did more than just matching the syllabus to the exam. They went further by familiarizing the kids with the grading rubric for the essay and short answer portions of the exams. It's best to learn what the graders are looking for and what kind of answers fulfill certain requirements. All this information is in the test prep books like Barron's or Princeton Review, but I'll bet many kids probably don't bother with the exam strategy and are just trying to memorize the content.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just avoid any school that both has no AP AND doesn't offer the tests.

I think only GDS around here falls into that category.

That way you always have the option to take the test if you want.

You can sign up to take tests at Whitman, Churchill and Basis so it's not a big deal.

For anyone who cares, you can ask the teachers what is different about their class vs the AP and most can specifically explain what is different about their class. APs are required to follow a certain order and use AP tests/quizzes. For some private school advanced/upper level classes that replaced APs, the course will cover the AP information, but not on the schedule or using the quizzes/test the AP prescribes. Or they may omit a section in favor of another or add in something extra (ie labs, different novels, extra text books/primary sources, etc).

All of the standardized tests have tricks and hacks to get the best score. Dedicated AP classes will focus on those throughout the year. It is 99% teaching to the test if they want students to get a 5. Many will take practice tests or do many practice questions so that test day is totally familiar.

A good instructor will hammer those tricks in. But that's the debate here - is it more important for your DC to learn the test or more about that field of study?

It's close to impossible to do both well, not in the limited time.

Our school does not teach to the test and leaves it to the ambitious kids to self teach 'tricks and hacks' if there really are such things.

Our school teaches them but does it after school or during Saturday sessions in April so that the class time is spent productively. It’s possible to do both.

You sound naive.

Lol such a weak response. Because you have nothing else, I guess.

You can teach the content well and teach test strategies. Yes, it may require time outside of the normal class. But it is done regularly. What’s naive is believing these things can’t both happen.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just avoid any school that both has no AP AND doesn't offer the tests.

I think only GDS around here falls into that category.

That way you always have the option to take the test if you want.

You can sign up to take tests at Whitman, Churchill and Basis so it's not a big deal.

For anyone who cares, you can ask the teachers what is different about their class vs the AP and most can specifically explain what is different about their class. APs are required to follow a certain order and use AP tests/quizzes. For some private school advanced/upper level classes that replaced APs, the course will cover the AP information, but not on the schedule or using the quizzes/test the AP prescribes. Or they may omit a section in favor of another or add in something extra (ie labs, different novels, extra text books/primary sources, etc).

All of the standardized tests have tricks and hacks to get the best score. Dedicated AP classes will focus on those throughout the year. It is 99% teaching to the test if they want students to get a 5. Many will take practice tests or do many practice questions so that test day is totally familiar.

A good instructor will hammer those tricks in. But that's the debate here - is it more important for your DC to learn the test or more about that field of study?

It's close to impossible to do both well, not in the limited time.

Our school does not teach to the test and leaves it to the ambitious kids to self teach 'tricks and hacks' if there really are such things.

Our school teaches them but does it after school or during Saturday sessions in April so that the class time is spent productively. It’s possible to do both.

Same. Many of our cover them either throughout the year as part of exams or in fourth quarter right before the exam.

Also, teachers determine the syllabus for an AP class. Sure there is a framework of topics/materials that need to be covered, but that is true for most standard courses in HS.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just avoid any school that both has no AP AND doesn't offer the tests.

I think only GDS around here falls into that category.

That way you always have the option to take the test if you want.

You can sign up to take tests at Whitman, Churchill and Basis so it's not a big deal.

For anyone who cares, you can ask the teachers what is different about their class vs the AP and most can specifically explain what is different about their class. APs are required to follow a certain order and use AP tests/quizzes. For some private school advanced/upper level classes that replaced APs, the course will cover the AP information, but not on the schedule or using the quizzes/test the AP prescribes. Or they may omit a section in favor of another or add in something extra (ie labs, different novels, extra text books/primary sources, etc).

All of the standardized tests have tricks and hacks to get the best score. Dedicated AP classes will focus on those throughout the year. It is 99% teaching to the test if they want students to get a 5. Many will take practice tests or do many practice questions so that test day is totally familiar.

A good instructor will hammer those tricks in. But that's the debate here - is it more important for your DC to learn the test or more about that field of study?

It's close to impossible to do both well, not in the limited time.

Our school does not teach to the test and leaves it to the ambitious kids to self teach 'tricks and hacks' if there really are such things.

Our school teaches them but does it after school or during Saturday sessions in April so that the class time is spent productively. It’s possible to do both.

You sound naive.