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Anonymous wrote:Someone posted a video simulation on Reddit of what the sky might have looked like for the helicopter pilots. They probably didn’t see the airplane until they were right in front it. I do believe they were looking at the departing flight to the right when they should have been looking for the descending plane on the left. It seems like the ATC should have been more specific about the location of the plane.

The sky was not an issue - they confirmed they could see other planes so it wasn’t an issue of weather/fog/clarity etc..

The planes wings had flashing anti collision lights that can be seen several miles away.





Planes aren’t sitting in the sky in stealth mode with the lights out.

No, you don’t know this is true for this situation.

You can literally see light illuminating from the plane on multiple angles of surveillance camera footage

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Anonymous wrote:I know that some people on here really want to blame the female pilot, but I ask you to ask yourselves if you were training someone and they were taking risks you weren’t comfortable with, isn’t it your responsibility to get them back into the realm of safety? And if the ATC is trying to make both pilots aware of a risk they are encountering, and you are in charge of answering, isn’t it your job to make sure you and the other pilot are aware of the risk the ATC is alerting you to before you answer in the affirmative and take responsibility for that risk?

Not trying to throw all the blame at the trainer, just think there was more than one failure here. I feel sorry for everyone involved in this situation.

And again, just to echo what other folks are saying, if this training was really just the return trip of the helo necessitated by some initial (and perhaps not really necessary) VIP trip, we deserve to know that, too.

I think the copilot was equally culpable.

Why? Please be specific. And also please tell us your qualifications and experience that give you insight.

He was communicating with ATC and claimed to have eyes on the plane.

And he very well may have. He wasn't the one controlling where the helicopter went.

You have absolutely no idea what was going on in the helicopter. Let the NTSB issue their report and stop this pathological need to blame people before facts are known.

From the ATC video, the copilot, a male voice was reassuring ATC he has things under control. Up until 1-2 secs of the crash.

He sounded calm and clear, not panicked, so I don't think there was any disagreement between him and the pilot.

Not blaming anyone, but if it was some kind of error that led to this, all the three soldiers were equally wrong.

Why would the crew chief be “wrong?”

It was their responsibility to ensure safe flight operations

A crew chief is a mechanic. They are responsible for the equipment of the aircraft. A crew chief is not a pilot and does not have flight training. They have no control over the piloting. Both pilots outranked the crew chief.

Bless you for having the patience to continue trying to educate in this thread.

Why does an ex-black hawk crew chief say differently?

https://www.newsnationnow.com/travel/is-it-safe-time-fly-black-hawk/

“The pilots’ jobs are to fly the aircraft. The crew chief’s job is airspace surveillance and obstacle avoidance,” he said.

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Anonymous wrote:I know that some people on here really want to blame the female pilot, but I ask you to ask yourselves if you were training someone and they were taking risks you weren’t comfortable with, isn’t it your responsibility to get them back into the realm of safety? And if the ATC is trying to make both pilots aware of a risk they are encountering, and you are in charge of answering, isn’t it your job to make sure you and the other pilot are aware of the risk the ATC is alerting you to before you answer in the affirmative and take responsibility for that risk?

Not trying to throw all the blame at the trainer, just think there was more than one failure here. I feel sorry for everyone involved in this situation.

And again, just to echo what other folks are saying, if this training was really just the return trip of the helo necessitated by some initial (and perhaps not really necessary) VIP trip, we deserve to know that, too.

I think the copilot was equally culpable.

Why? Please be specific. And also please tell us your qualifications and experience that give you insight.

He was communicating with ATC and claimed to have eyes on the plane.

And he very well may have. He wasn't the one controlling where the helicopter went.

You have absolutely no idea what was going on in the helicopter. Let the NTSB issue their report and stop this pathological need to blame people before facts are known.

From the ATC video, the copilot, a male voice was reassuring ATC he has things under control. Up until 1-2 secs of the crash.

He sounded calm and clear, not panicked, so I don't think there was any disagreement between him and the pilot.

Not blaming anyone, but if it was some kind of error that led to this, all the three soldiers were equally wrong.

Why would the crew chief be “wrong?”

It was their responsibility to ensure safe flight operations

A crew chief is a mechanic. They are responsible for the equipment of the aircraft. A crew chief is not a pilot and does not have flight training. They have no control over the piloting. Both pilots outranked the crew chief.

Bless you for having the patience to continue trying to educate in this thread.

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Anonymous wrote:Someone posted a video simulation on Reddit of what the sky might have looked like for the helicopter pilots. They probably didn’t see the airplane until they were right in front it. I do believe they were looking at the departing flight to the right when they should have been looking for the descending plane on the left. It seems like the ATC should have been more specific about the location of the plane.

The sky was not an issue - they confirmed they could see other planes so it wasn’t an issue of weather/fog/clarity etc..

The planes wings had flashing anti collision lights that can be seen several miles away.





Planes aren’t sitting in the sky in stealth mode with the lights out.

No, you don’t know this is true for this situation.

You can literally see light illuminating from the plane on multiple angles of surveillance camera footage

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Anonymous wrote:I do think it’s odd all of the female pilot’s social media was completely scrubbed. But also her siblings and her parents.

Why? It’s the first thing I would do.

Because the other pilots and crew involved were released immediately, either willingly or not, I don’t know. They didn’t take extreme time and measures to erase all traces of them the public could potentially judge. And when you are involved in killing a bunch of people, the public will judge. By them not allowing military to release her name and then scrubbing all traces of narrative about her except what they explicitly publish, it seems like something is being hidden she would be judged harshly for- beyond her gender alone

Rebecca as a Captain outranked the copilot, how does that factor in to decision making?

It may have.

NVGs likely were a factor.

That the plane saw the BH at the last second and tried to evade is sad.

ATC could have been more explicit.

NVGs have been used for decades without this ever happening before now. Helicopters and planes don’t crash into each other weekly, monthly, daily. Stop making up excuses. ATC has been using the same commands and language for decade, as have pilots - this wasn’t invented yesterday.

The issue lies with the three in that helicopter. Full stop. The combination of those three individuals is the variable. That plane route was regular and common and the runways were not new.

Were they paying attention? Were they jacking around? ATC was directing dozens of planes all night without issue.

Helicopter behavior on the night in question is the issue here.

Pilots don’t “jack around” or stop paying attention. You sound like you went to the Hollywood flight school.

Sure, Jan! Do you not realize that 99% of people half-ass nearly every duty they have? From jobs to parenthood to life.

You can expect someone to have a serious job and act maturely but do they actually?

The 90+ fighter pilots I know do take their job seriously, yes. Watching Top Gun doesn’t make you an expert. Just because everyone in your life half-asses everything doesn’t mean that’s the way other people behave. I’m sorry you don’t have better role models.

+1

Seriously.

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Anonymous wrote:I do think it’s odd all of the female pilot’s social media was completely scrubbed. But also her siblings and her parents.

Why? It’s the first thing I would do.

Because the other pilots and crew involved were released immediately, either willingly or not, I don’t know. They didn’t take extreme time and measures to erase all traces of them the public could potentially judge. And when you are involved in killing a bunch of people, the public will judge. By them not allowing military to release her name and then scrubbing all traces of narrative about her except what they explicitly publish, it seems like something is being hidden she would be judged harshly for- beyond her gender alone

Rebecca as a Captain outranked the copilot, how does that factor in to decision making?

It may have.

NVGs likely were a factor.

That the plane saw the BH at the last second and tried to evade is sad.

ATC could have been more explicit.

NVGs have been used for decades without this ever happening before now. Helicopters and planes don’t crash into each other weekly, monthly, daily. Stop making up excuses. ATC has been using the same commands and language for decade, as have pilots - this wasn’t invented yesterday.

The issue lies with the three in that helicopter. Full stop. The combination of those three individuals is the variable. That plane route was regular and common and the runways were not new.

Were they paying attention? Were they jacking around? ATC was directing dozens of planes all night without issue.

Helicopter behavior on the night in question is the issue here.

Pilots don’t “jack around” or stop paying attention. You sound like you went to the Hollywood flight school.

Sure, Jan! Do you not realize that 99% of people half-ass nearly every duty they have? From jobs to parenthood to life.

You can expect someone to have a serious job and act maturely but do they actually?

The 90+ fighter pilots I know do take their job seriously, yes. Watching Top Gun doesn’t make you an expert. Just because everyone in your life half-asses everything doesn’t mean that’s the way other people behave. I’m sorry you don’t have better role models.

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Anonymous wrote:I do think it’s odd all of the female pilot’s social media was completely scrubbed. But also her siblings and her parents.

Why? It’s the first thing I would do.

Because the other pilots and crew involved were released immediately, either willingly or not, I don’t know. They didn’t take extreme time and measures to erase all traces of them the public could potentially judge. And when you are involved in killing a bunch of people, the public will judge. By them not allowing military to release her name and then scrubbing all traces of narrative about her except what they explicitly publish, it seems like something is being hidden she would be judged harshly for- beyond her gender alone

Rebecca as a Captain outranked the copilot, how does that factor in to decision making?

It may have.

NVGs likely were a factor.

That the plane saw the BH at the last second and tried to evade is sad.

ATC could have been more explicit.

NVGs have been used for decades without this ever happening before now. Helicopters and planes don’t crash into each other weekly, monthly, daily. Stop making up excuses. ATC has been using the same commands and language for decade, as have pilots - this wasn’t invented yesterday.

The issue lies with the three in that helicopter. Full stop. The combination of those three individuals is the variable. That plane route was regular and common and the runways were not new.

Were they paying attention? Were they jacking around? ATC was directing dozens of planes all night without issue.

Helicopter behavior on the night in question is the issue here.

Pilots don’t “jack around” or stop paying attention. You sound like you went to the Hollywood flight school.

Sure, Jan! Do you not realize that 99% of people half-ass nearly every duty they have? From jobs to parenthood to life.

You can expect someone to have a serious job and act maturely but do they actually?

Anonymous wrote:You know the latest assessment of altitude suggests that it could have been in the 200. The 360 reading in the plane’s control is only refreshed every 4 seconds. Not saying that will end up being correct or it changes the outcome of fault but let’s wait until the facts come out.

Anonymous wrote:I think the person on the helicopter radio was distracted and just responded to the tower without paying attention, maybe assumed afterwards that the airport was only using runway 1, and that negligence was compounded by them not sticking to their flight path. They didn’t see the plane, or at least not in time. But it’s clearly negligence on the part of the helicopter crew on the radio because they don’t seem to have had the jet in sight either time they said they did and requested responsibility for not hitting it.

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Anonymous wrote:I know that some people on here really want to blame the female pilot, but I ask you to ask yourselves if you were training someone and they were taking risks you weren’t comfortable with, isn’t it your responsibility to get them back into the realm of safety? And if the ATC is trying to make both pilots aware of a risk they are encountering, and you are in charge of answering, isn’t it your job to make sure you and the other pilot are aware of the risk the ATC is alerting you to before you answer in the affirmative and take responsibility for that risk?

Not trying to throw all the blame at the trainer, just think there was more than one failure here. I feel sorry for everyone involved in this situation.

And again, just to echo what other folks are saying, if this training was really just the return trip of the helo necessitated by some initial (and perhaps not really necessary) VIP trip, we deserve to know that, too.

I think the copilot was equally culpable.

Why? Please be specific. And also please tell us your qualifications and experience that give you insight.

He was communicating with ATC and claimed to have eyes on the plane.

And he very well may have. He wasn't the one controlling where the helicopter went.

You have absolutely no idea what was going on in the helicopter. Let the NTSB issue their report and stop this pathological need to blame people before facts are known.

From the ATC video, the copilot, a male voice was reassuring ATC he has things under control. Up until 1-2 secs of the crash.

He sounded calm and clear, not panicked, so I don't think there was any disagreement between him and the pilot.

Not blaming anyone, but if it was some kind of error that led to this, all the three soldiers were equally wrong.

Why would the crew chief be “wrong?”

It was their responsibility to ensure safe flight operations

A crew chief is a mechanic. They are responsible for the equipment of the aircraft. A crew chief is not a pilot and does not have flight training. They have no control over the piloting. Both pilots outranked the crew chief.

Anonymous wrote:Someone posted a video simulation on Reddit of what the sky might have looked like for the helicopter pilots. They probably didn’t see the airplane until they were right in front it. I do believe they were looking at the departing flight to the right when they should have been looking for the descending plane on the left. It seems like the ATC should have been more specific about the location of the plane.

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Anonymous wrote:I do think it’s odd all of the female pilot’s social media was completely scrubbed. But also her siblings and her parents.

Why? It’s the first thing I would do.

Because the other pilots and crew involved were released immediately, either willingly or not, I don’t know. They didn’t take extreme time and measures to erase all traces of them the public could potentially judge. And when you are involved in killing a bunch of people, the public will judge. By them not allowing military to release her name and then scrubbing all traces of narrative about her except what they explicitly publish, it seems like something is being hidden she would be judged harshly for- beyond her gender alone

Rebecca as a Captain outranked the copilot, how does that factor in to decision making?

It may have.

NVGs likely were a factor.

That the plane saw the BH at the last second and tried to evade is sad.

ATC could have been more explicit.

NVGs have been used for decades without this ever happening before now. Helicopters and planes don’t crash into each other weekly, monthly, daily. Stop making up excuses. ATC has been using the same commands and language for decade, as have pilots - this wasn’t invented yesterday.

The issue lies with the three in that helicopter. Full stop. The combination of those three individuals is the variable. That plane route was regular and common and the runways were not new.

Were they paying attention? Were they jacking around? ATC was directing dozens of planes all night without issue.

Helicopter behavior on the night in question is the issue here.

You don't know that.

You don't have all of the informaton.

We know the helicopter flew outside their route and well above their allowed altitude. We know that to them into the path of a landing airplane, when they were told by ATC to wait until it passed before proceeding.

We know the helicopter's behavior caused this. We just don't know why they did it.

You just don't know, period.

There's a lot we do know. Why are you ignoring that?

That PP wants to argue that ATC is full of DEI hires

FAA is more than 70% male and 70% white.

What are the names, CV, races and genders of the 3 on duty that night at Reagan? You had a supervisor, an ATC, and an ATC who the supe let go home early.

what were the names races and genders of the people who decided that it is appropriate to have training flights there at all?

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Anonymous wrote:There has been such a tight lid on the VIP leg of this flight.

There is NO WAY the "VIP" request isn't something that is bad optics.

Where are the journaliats who used to lurk around here?

They weren’t on some special unauthorized route for a VIP. The VIP wasn’t part of this crash.

They were flying an authorized route that is frequently flown by helicopters and were getting signed off on their annual night training on this route when the crash occurred. This was a required evaluation they were doing AFTER whatever VIP business was done

The VIP leg is why they were training in the dark during the busiest hour at National. The public deserves to know who the VIP was and the purpose of the VIP trip.

is the implication that they added the training to justify the VIP trip?

They use the return legs of "VIP" trips as "training" legs very frequently.

If people knew how many BS VIP trips there are in the national airspace, it would be a scandal.

More reason to know who the VIP was!

People want to know who vip was. Ok, but how about people on the AA plane? Was the AA jet a target for whatever reason? Besides skaters, who else were on that plane? Were vip also on that plane?

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Anonymous wrote:Someone posted a video simulation on Reddit of what the sky might have looked like for the helicopter pilots. They probably didn’t see the airplane until they were right in front it. I do believe they were looking at the departing flight to the right when they should have been looking for the descending plane on the left. It seems like the ATC should have been more specific about the location of the plane.

The sky was not an issue - they confirmed they could see other planes so it wasn’t an issue of weather/fog/clarity etc..

The planes wings had flashing anti collision lights that can be seen several miles away.





Planes aren’t sitting in the sky in stealth mode with the lights out.

No, you don’t know this is true for this situation.

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Anonymous wrote:FWIW I’m hearing it was simulating getting a govt official to safety as it was a COG (continuity of government) exercise.

“The missions are routine: In the event of a catastrophe, helicopters are often employed to usher government officials to safety.”

This is not secret intel, it's a direct CNN quote, so why not say so? These routine simulation exercises were widely covered in the news in the past couple of days.

"The soldiers on the Black Hawk were conducting what Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth described as an annual nighttime training on 'a continuity of government mission.' The missions are routine: In the event of a catastrophe, helicopters are often employed to usher government officials to safety. Crew members had night vision goggles, the defense secretary said."

Ok … even if training to evacuate VIP’s is necessary, why tf was it necessary for the evacuation route to go through DCA? Makes no sense.

Since you seem to know definitively that it makes no sense, please tell us where does the evacuation route they were training on go from and to (such that it makes no sense to pass by DCA)?

There are published helicopter routes, which go right by DCA every day. They’ve been talking about this in the news since day one. It’s not that they “just decided” to go by DCA, this was one of the approved helicopter routes… training or not.

They were outside that route-- too close to DCA and too high.

… and that’s the consequence of having a training route next to a civilian airport.

Are you saying they’re all that incompetent they can’t stay on a river bank path at a consistent altitude on a clear night?

Cancel the whole program then. Call DOGE.

Have you not read any of the news reports explaining that actually yes this is a persistent problem and that there have been many near misses over the years with helicopters around DCA?

You don't have to "call DOGE" to "cancel the whole program." There are already procedures in place for stopping the practice of sending military helicopters past DCA at all hours. Sadly, it has taken a deadline incident to actually engage those procedures.

Speaking of DOGE though, I wonder what kind of deadly incident SpaceX will wind up experiencing to finally make Musk realize that the "unnecessary regulation" imposed on him by the FAA might actually be saving lives. Because rather than just follow regulations imposed by the FAA, he has instead bought the influence over the current president so that he can bully the last head of the FAA into resigning so he can get his way. Is DOGE going to "cancel the whole program" when it turns out that the regulations SpaceX is being asked to follow are actually necessary for civilian safety?