Anonymous
01/17/2020 09:49
Subject: Trying to handle baby + big law and failing miserably. Talk me down.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:OP I’m in biglaw with two kids. I had my first in law school so I’ve never known it any other way.
A nanny won’t necessarily make it better especially since your baby is doing well. Nannies have sick days, vacations, and also a quitting time just like a closing daycare.
I personally can’t leave at 5 so I don’t do pickup. My workflow just would never allow that. I have an au pair but it sounds like your DH can do it.
IME law firms are relatively chill about you coming in late. I’d keep using your mornings like you do but stay later so you’re not up til midnight every night.
Juniors should not be giving you shit. Not all firms have that kind of defective culture. I have moved firms twice making sure my culture is working for me. Just because you want to leave your firm doesn’t mean you need to leave biglaw and the paycheck.
The problem for the more junior associates is they have no practical ability to leave at 5 and have to start dealing with OP’s requests and demands again starting at 7. They lose two hours waiting for her to re-engage. So of course they will throw her some shade.
There should be few times where associates can’t use that time. This is particularly true where this is op’s regular schedule and they should be able to plan accordingly to use that time, whether for other work, the gym, etc. plus, there are plenty of times things aren’t so pressing that the associate would have to stay late to match op’s schedule.
At the end of the day, the more senior person largely gets to dictate schedule, within the needs of the client’s timing.
The more senior person is the partner, and the partner will respond if the junior associates are unhappy because a mid-level or senior is leaving at 5. It is not going to work if she is giving them things to do the same evening after 7. Their lives matter, too.
OP. The nature of my practice is that many of the late nights are spent on client emails requiring a same-day answer on something. Juniors are not helpful for this. I give juniors work, but only for the type of projects that are longer term, and I always specify that. But you’re nuts if you think partners aren’t emailing the juniors at 7 pm.
Of course they are, but the partners probably aren’t cutting out at 5, plus they command more deference than you do. You can invoke seniority, but s law firm isn’t the military.
It’s good if you’re not making same-day demands on more junior associates from the comfort of your home after 7, but it still leaves them in a position where the partners may be more likely to turn to them than to you for evening assistance. Or perhaps you just give off the impression of being overwhelmed. If you were more confident in your dealings with them, they would be less likely to throw shade at you and might even look at you as a role model.
Midlevels and seniors are generally not comparable to juniors. I don't mean that as a pulling rank thing, but juniors typically aren't going to be getting the work that a partner would want a more senior person for. And if a partner wants a particular person for evening assistance, they're going to find that person. What year are you?
Anonymous
01/17/2020 09:47
Subject: Re:Trying to handle baby + big law and failing miserably. Talk me down.
I was in biglaw for 10 years but left before I had kids. I saw no one who was successful long term that had kids that didn’t have a spouse that either was a sah or cut way back on their own career. Since you don’t seem to want to stay long term and make partner, that doesn’t need to mean that you can’t stay a few years more if you are willing to continuing working long hours.
You absolutely need a nanny, and you need to subscribe to a back up nanny service for the rare times when your nanny is sick if you don’t have families or friends in the area, or the ability to cover yourself. Not only will the nanny rid you having to do drop offs and pick ups, they can do light housekeeping that will help free up the time when you are home from the more mundane tasks like laundry or groceries. Ideally, hire someone who can cook. I could not have continued to work as an attorney, even outside of big law , with a spouse with a demanding job, without a nanny.
I don’t think it is true that babyhood is the hardest part, it gets harder when your kids have homework and activities in the evening although you I’ll be sleeping better. It is true that your kid will not remember these early years, but you will. Plan your next career moves to give you the family life you want, because kids grow up really fast, and there is no turning back the clock.
You absolutely need a nanny, and you need to subscribe to a back up nanny service for the rare times when your nanny is sick if you don’t have families or friends in the area, or the ability to cover yourself. Not only will the nanny rid you having to do drop offs and pick ups, they can do light housekeeping that will help free up the time when you are home from the more mundane tasks like laundry or groceries. Ideally, hire someone who can cook. I could not have continued to work as an attorney, even outside of big law , with a spouse with a demanding job, without a nanny.
I don’t think it is true that babyhood is the hardest part, it gets harder when your kids have homework and activities in the evening although you I’ll be sleeping better. It is true that your kid will not remember these early years, but you will. Plan your next career moves to give you the family life you want, because kids grow up really fast, and there is no turning back the clock.
Anonymous
01/17/2020 09:42
Subject: Trying to handle baby + big law and failing miserably. Talk me down.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:OP I’m in biglaw with two kids. I had my first in law school so I’ve never known it any other way.
A nanny won’t necessarily make it better especially since your baby is doing well. Nannies have sick days, vacations, and also a quitting time just like a closing daycare.
I personally can’t leave at 5 so I don’t do pickup. My workflow just would never allow that. I have an au pair but it sounds like your DH can do it.
IME law firms are relatively chill about you coming in late. I’d keep using your mornings like you do but stay later so you’re not up til midnight every night.
Juniors should not be giving you shit. Not all firms have that kind of defective culture. I have moved firms twice making sure my culture is working for me. Just because you want to leave your firm doesn’t mean you need to leave biglaw and the paycheck.
The problem for the more junior associates is they have no practical ability to leave at 5 and have to start dealing with OP’s requests and demands again starting at 7. They lose two hours waiting for her to re-engage. So of course they will throw her some shade.
There should be few times where associates can’t use that time. This is particularly true where this is op’s regular schedule and they should be able to plan accordingly to use that time, whether for other work, the gym, etc. plus, there are plenty of times things aren’t so pressing that the associate would have to stay late to match op’s schedule.
At the end of the day, the more senior person largely gets to dictate schedule, within the needs of the client’s timing.
The more senior person is the partner, and the partner will respond if the junior associates are unhappy because a mid-level or senior is leaving at 5. It is not going to work if she is giving them things to do the same evening after 7. Their lives matter, too.
You didn’t really respond to the reasons I gave why it isn’t that big of deal.
As for the partner, the partner isn’t going to be that upset of emails after 7. The partner probably sends such emails himself. Nor is the partner going to want to wade in unless it really reaches an unacceptable level. The senior associate is more valuable to the partner than a junior. At the end of the day, shit flows downhill and the junior’s life/schedule isn’t given top priority. That’s part of the reason you get $200k+ right out of school despite knowing next to nothing.
Anonymous
01/17/2020 09:35
Subject: Trying to handle baby + big law and failing miserably. Talk me down.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:OP I’m in biglaw with two kids. I had my first in law school so I’ve never known it any other way.
A nanny won’t necessarily make it better especially since your baby is doing well. Nannies have sick days, vacations, and also a quitting time just like a closing daycare.
I personally can’t leave at 5 so I don’t do pickup. My workflow just would never allow that. I have an au pair but it sounds like your DH can do it.
IME law firms are relatively chill about you coming in late. I’d keep using your mornings like you do but stay later so you’re not up til midnight every night.
Juniors should not be giving you shit. Not all firms have that kind of defective culture. I have moved firms twice making sure my culture is working for me. Just because you want to leave your firm doesn’t mean you need to leave biglaw and the paycheck.
The problem for the more junior associates is they have no practical ability to leave at 5 and have to start dealing with OP’s requests and demands again starting at 7. They lose two hours waiting for her to re-engage. So of course they will throw her some shade.
There should be few times where associates can’t use that time. This is particularly true where this is op’s regular schedule and they should be able to plan accordingly to use that time, whether for other work, the gym, etc. plus, there are plenty of times things aren’t so pressing that the associate would have to stay late to match op’s schedule.
At the end of the day, the more senior person largely gets to dictate schedule, within the needs of the client’s timing.
The more senior person is the partner, and the partner will respond if the junior associates are unhappy because a mid-level or senior is leaving at 5. It is not going to work if she is giving them things to do the same evening after 7. Their lives matter, too.
OP. The nature of my practice is that many of the late nights are spent on client emails requiring a same-day answer on something. Juniors are not helpful for this. I give juniors work, but only for the type of projects that are longer term, and I always specify that. But you’re nuts if you think partners aren’t emailing the juniors at 7 pm.
Of course they are, but the partners probably aren’t cutting out at 5, plus they command more deference than you do. You can invoke seniority, but s law firm isn’t the military.
It’s good if you’re not making same-day demands on more junior associates from the comfort of your home after 7, but it still leaves them in a position where the partners may be more likely to turn to them than to you for evening assistance. Or perhaps you just give off the impression of being overwhelmed. If you were more confident in your dealings with them, they would be less likely to throw shade at you and might even look at you as a role model.
Anonymous
01/17/2020 09:29
Subject: Re:Trying to handle baby + big law and failing miserably. Talk me down.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I had two babies in big law because I was determined to squeeze to maternity leaves out. But I knew after the first I couldn’t carry on like that. I started working my network and let clients know I was interested in in-house opportunities. I got an email during my second maternity leave and started the interview process. I went back for one week and gave notice.
Male partners see this so much and it reflects poorly on every female associate behind you.
But glad it worked out for you.
Not a damn thing male associates can do about it. Next female associate up!
What are you talking about? Not a single mention was made of male associates.
Male partners are well aware of the reality of many female associates jetting early. But they have to replace them with other female associates. Honestly, regardless of gender, 98 percent of these lawyers are fungible. Magna Cum Laude Katie from T14 and Magna Cum Laude Connor from T14 will be the same .... And why is that? Because law is easy.
Of course they don’t replace then with other female associates. They stick with the male associate who worked crazy long hours, didn’t fuss about childcare and didn’t leave after 2 three month long maternity leaves in 24 months (with low hours in between the mat leaves).
Uh...no...incoming associate classes are more and more female.
This isn’t actually true, associate classes have been majority female since the late 1990s. Retention has always been a huge issue.
Anonymous
01/17/2020 09:17
Subject: Trying to handle baby + big law and failing miserably. Talk me down.
OP put paying off your loan a bit longer and invest in a nanny. In a few years you can do preschool. Preschool is the best thing I ever did for my kids.
— BigLaw wife
— BigLaw wife
Anonymous
01/17/2020 09:01
Subject: Trying to handle baby + big law and failing miserably. Talk me down.
Also, I don’t think it makes me an asshole to not want to move to Fargo, but to each her own. The comment was a joke but in all honesty, no I don’t want to live in those places. I’m from somewhere like that and much happier in large cities.
Anonymous
01/17/2020 08:57
Subject: Trying to handle baby + big law and failing miserably. Talk me down.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:OP I’m in biglaw with two kids. I had my first in law school so I’ve never known it any other way.
A nanny won’t necessarily make it better especially since your baby is doing well. Nannies have sick days, vacations, and also a quitting time just like a closing daycare.
I personally can’t leave at 5 so I don’t do pickup. My workflow just would never allow that. I have an au pair but it sounds like your DH can do it.
IME law firms are relatively chill about you coming in late. I’d keep using your mornings like you do but stay later so you’re not up til midnight every night.
Juniors should not be giving you shit. Not all firms have that kind of defective culture. I have moved firms twice making sure my culture is working for me. Just because you want to leave your firm doesn’t mean you need to leave biglaw and the paycheck.
The problem for the more junior associates is they have no practical ability to leave at 5 and have to start dealing with OP’s requests and demands again starting at 7. They lose two hours waiting for her to re-engage. So of course they will throw her some shade.
There should be few times where associates can’t use that time. This is particularly true where this is op’s regular schedule and they should be able to plan accordingly to use that time, whether for other work, the gym, etc. plus, there are plenty of times things aren’t so pressing that the associate would have to stay late to match op’s schedule.
At the end of the day, the more senior person largely gets to dictate schedule, within the needs of the client’s timing.
The more senior person is the partner, and the partner will respond if the junior associates are unhappy because a mid-level or senior is leaving at 5. It is not going to work if she is giving them things to do the same evening after 7. Their lives matter, too.
OP. The nature of my practice is that many of the late nights are spent on client emails requiring a same-day answer on something. Juniors are not helpful for this. I give juniors work, but only for the type of projects that are longer term, and I always specify that. But you’re nuts if you think partners aren’t emailing the juniors at 7 pm.
Anonymous
01/17/2020 08:53
Subject: Trying to handle baby + big law and failing miserably. Talk me down.
06:55 thank you for writing that little article! Very informative. One point you make about associates: they hardly have “time” to think about how their lives could be better. Honestly.
Anonymous
01/17/2020 08:46
Subject: Trying to handle baby + big law and failing miserably. Talk me down.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:OP I’m in biglaw with two kids. I had my first in law school so I’ve never known it any other way.
A nanny won’t necessarily make it better especially since your baby is doing well. Nannies have sick days, vacations, and also a quitting time just like a closing daycare.
I personally can’t leave at 5 so I don’t do pickup. My workflow just would never allow that. I have an au pair but it sounds like your DH can do it.
IME law firms are relatively chill about you coming in late. I’d keep using your mornings like you do but stay later so you’re not up til midnight every night.
Juniors should not be giving you shit. Not all firms have that kind of defective culture. I have moved firms twice making sure my culture is working for me. Just because you want to leave your firm doesn’t mean you need to leave biglaw and the paycheck.
The problem for the more junior associates is they have no practical ability to leave at 5 and have to start dealing with OP’s requests and demands again starting at 7. They lose two hours waiting for her to re-engage. So of course they will throw her some shade.
There should be few times where associates can’t use that time. This is particularly true where this is op’s regular schedule and they should be able to plan accordingly to use that time, whether for other work, the gym, etc. plus, there are plenty of times things aren’t so pressing that the associate would have to stay late to match op’s schedule.
At the end of the day, the more senior person largely gets to dictate schedule, within the needs of the client’s timing.
The more senior person is the partner, and the partner will respond if the junior associates are unhappy because a mid-level or senior is leaving at 5. It is not going to work if she is giving them things to do the same evening after 7. Their lives matter, too.
Anonymous
01/17/2020 08:39
Subject: Re:Trying to handle baby + big law and failing miserably. Talk me down.
Anonymous wrote:I had two babies in big law because I was determined to squeeze to maternity leaves out. But I knew after the first I couldn’t carry on like that. I started working my network and let clients know I was interested in in-house opportunities. I got an email during my second maternity leave and started the interview process. I went back for one week and have notice.
Girl working it.
Anonymous
01/17/2020 08:33
Subject: Trying to handle baby + big law and failing miserably. Talk me down.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:https://www.chambers-associate.com/where-to-start/commercial-awareness/parenting-and-biglaw
Long article about being a woman parent in Big Law. I can’t find a stat on how many woman partners have children. Sadly all the ones I know do not have children.
But they have robust practices?
Yes. They are well known in their practice area. Who knows maybe infertility played a role. But similarly situated male partners have children.
Anonymous
01/17/2020 08:02
Subject: Trying to handle baby + big law and failing miserably. Talk me down.
Do not go part time - maybe things have changed or it is firm dependent, but women working part time ended up working just as many hours for lower pay. Set a target exit date and take it day by day. I literally counted X number of days until loans were paid off and we had enough in savings and crossed off each day.
That said, if you think you want to stay in Biglaw for the long term I would go the nanny route.
That said, if you think you want to stay in Biglaw for the long term I would go the nanny route.
Anonymous
01/17/2020 07:50
Subject: Trying to handle baby + big law and failing miserably. Talk me down.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:OP I’m in biglaw with two kids. I had my first in law school so I’ve never known it any other way.
A nanny won’t necessarily make it better especially since your baby is doing well. Nannies have sick days, vacations, and also a quitting time just like a closing daycare.
I personally can’t leave at 5 so I don’t do pickup. My workflow just would never allow that. I have an au pair but it sounds like your DH can do it.
IME law firms are relatively chill about you coming in late. I’d keep using your mornings like you do but stay later so you’re not up til midnight every night.
Juniors should not be giving you shit. Not all firms have that kind of defective culture. I have moved firms twice making sure my culture is working for me. Just because you want to leave your firm doesn’t mean you need to leave biglaw and the paycheck.
The problem for the more junior associates is they have no practical ability to leave at 5 and have to start dealing with OP’s requests and demands again starting at 7. They lose two hours waiting for her to re-engage. So of course they will throw her some shade.
There should be few times where associates can’t use that time. This is particularly true where this is op’s regular schedule and they should be able to plan accordingly to use that time, whether for other work, the gym, etc. plus, there are plenty of times things aren’t so pressing that the associate would have to stay late to match op’s schedule.
At the end of the day, the more senior person largely gets to dictate schedule, within the needs of the client’s timing.
Anonymous
01/17/2020 07:42
Subject: Re:Trying to handle baby + big law and failing miserably. Talk me down.
Anonymous wrote:I haven't gone through all posts in the thread, but I think quite a lot of helpful advice has been given.
My wife and I are DINK, I am still in biglaw while she bailed to an inhouse role as a second year. The first 5-7 years are brutal - you are learning the ropes and working horrible hours for (sometimes) horrible clients and partners. To be honest, I am not sure how I made it through those years. I have moved two firms in my 12+ years in biglaw (both at V5 firms) in the naive expectation that culture would make a difference. I would say that the long hours on the job are absolutely essential to becoming a great lawyer - it was once explained to me that the reason why Wachtell partners were made up so early was because they had much more experience than an equivalent associate at another biglaw firm, by virtue of billing 3500 hrs year in and year out every year (close to double the usual 1800hrs requirement at a "normal" biglaw firm) - whether or not this is true, I don't know.
When the prior posters said things get better as you get more senior, that is true in some ways. Things are better now in the sense that I know what I am doing and I have a reasonably good estimate of how long the work is going to take me and I can better manage my time. I can now delegate work to juniors but many times I will need to amend and correct drafts to ensure that they are "client ready". The aggressive deadlines and the unreasonable requests haven't gone away, and probably have gotten worse - the only thing that has changed is that I am now better equipped to handle them (for example, I generally have a sense of what the "right" answer would be, and most times clients would be happy with a preliminary answer followed up by advice in writing at a later stage). I also have my own clients now who trust me to deliver work product on time and on point, which makes it easier to manage the workload of the associates that work with me, since I can tell the client that we do need just that extra bit of time to make sure our advice is correct. The biglaw firm I am at now requires each partner to generate enough work to keep their team busy - which means that the pressure has changed from being an associate (and it is probably more intense). Instead of constantly worrying about meeting deadlines, whether I would need to cancel my plans or whether I had drafted a document correctly or missed out a major point, I worry about where my next transaction is going to come from, and whether I would have enough work to keep the team busy throughout the year.
I don't know how I would have handled having a baby and biglaw during the early years. It is tough, and I am truly impressed by all who manage it. DW and I made a conscious decision not to have kids until my career was more "settled", so that we would not have the additional stress or pressure while trying to make partner (if I didn't, I would have just gone to an in-house role). It is doable, though, and I have seen some associates manage it, but of course as the pp have mentioned, the key is to outsource the various housekeeping chores as much as you can. It is very easy to tell from work product whether an associate has put in 100% or has done a sloppy job (and you do not want to have the reputation of being the associate that no one is able to rely on). Don't think otherwise, but many people that biglaw firms hire are ambitious, driven and have big aspirations (at least in the early years). Work product from an ambitious, driven associate that spends hours making sure every last typo has been picked up reads vastly different to an associate who does "just enough" and seems to be distracted by life outside the office. I am not saying that this is bad, but merely just a fact, and that is why there is so much attrition over the years. Leaving biglaw is a personal choice and many people do not want this lifestyle which is entirely fair enough. I don't know of any career (other than big tech, which attracts similar personalities) which pays a graduate with no experience $190k plus a $15k bonus in their first year out, so I guess commitment to the job should be expected. I could think of other jobs that require the same or similar amount of time commitment, which pays much less (single mom having to work two minimum wage jobs perhaps)? So I think in some ways, biglaw attorneys do have it "easy".
My only advice is that whatever you decide, do it soon. Any decision to leave biglaw should be made in the early years (years 1-3). Grinding it out for 8-10 years in biglaw and then realizing you do not want to be in private practice for the long haul feels to me like a waste of time - you would have sacrificed so much personal time with family (particularly a young family) and friends that it is just not worth it. And I have seen it happen. Senior associates who have billed 2500 hours a year for years suddenly lifting their heads up from their desk and suddenly realizing, this is not what I want. They spent the past few years chasing deadlines, churning work product constantly that it has become the "norm" and they never really had the time to think about what they wanted to do in life. Being in biglaw was just a rite of passage, just like getting good grades at school, getting into law school, getting a biglaw job...
I know this may not be helpful, but just my 2 cents as a fellow biglaw attorney. I wish you the very best of luck OP, and I hope it all works out!
I disagree staying beyond 1-3 years is a waste. First, many of the better exit options aren’t available that early. Second, you will make a lot of money those extra years. If you are smart, that should allow you to build up a nice nest egg that should give you significant financial flexibility going forward.