Anonymous
12/20/2017 16:55
Subject: Re:He runs with her 5-6 days a week.
This is fine. Wouldn't bother me, especially because your DH leaves his phone around and open. Be happy he's getting even healthier.
Anonymous
12/20/2017 16:40
Subject: He runs with her 5-6 days a week.
Anonymous wrote:I can't speak to the therapist's intent behind the statements about the link between the alcoholism and cheating, but I think it's not helpful to think of the alcoholism as causing or excusing his lying and relationship outside your marriage (be it emotional or physical).
Your DH is a practiced liar. What you know about so far is the relationship with this woman and a drinking problem. Whatever mental health and brain issues he has that manifest as alcoholism can easily go hand-in-hand with other addictive behaviors like seeking extra-marital positive feelings about himself. It's all very concerning.
It's not insurmountable, but this is a long-haul thing (if you even want to try). I suggest thinking long and hard about what YOU want and do not rely on his statements about what he wants as any kind of guarantee or guide as to what you want. Read and research about alcoholism, addiction, lying, affairs. Recovery is possible but most people go back to these behaviors (despite saying "never again" and meaning it at the time), even if temporarily. Can you live with more of this? Can you live with the doubts and be happy?
To me the signs that he's all-in on the marriage sound like more gung-ho addictive behavior. He's all over the place. He went from daily romantic contact over an extended period with another woman to being super present in your and the kids' lives? How long is that going to last and be satisfying for him? Can you accept that he was pouring his emotional resources into another woman for so long and now like a rubber band has snapped back and it goes to you now? For how long?
This is good point to consider. You can choose to stay with him and work on rebuilding, but you will have to accept that you can't trust him. The roots of his addictive behavior need work, and he will always be susceptible. He is still lying and will be likely to lie again.
So do you feel you can handle whatever happens? Can you handle living day in, day out without trust? Even if things go better, every day you'll encounter painful moments where you'll doubt. You can't control him, though as people have mentioned with the transparency practices and the post-nup negotiations, you can make the terms of him staying crystal clear.
I've stayed with someone like this, and the hardest part is living with the lack of trust. It's stressful and draining. Oh he's addictively all in, and has done a lot of therapy and work on the root causes of his issues, and he's been acting better for several years. But the trust never comes back. I only relax when I'm away from him. When I'm around healthy, trustworthy people it's like a soothing balm, an absence of the chronic pain that I've gotten used to with him.
Anonymous
12/20/2017 15:30
Subject: Re:He runs with her 5-6 days a week.
I agree that his email to her was off. It sounded to me like he was telling her what the story was. I might be wrong, but....anyway, OP, you may or may not get trickle truth. But usually these kinds of affairs dont stay contained, and dont go from slightly physical to less physical, but with the same amount of texting, etc. I am guessing there was more, but he is genuine about wanting to save your marriage.
Let me ask you this: do you believe him 100%? is he a good liar? Would you be able to get past an affair if he confessed? would you if he did't and you found out anyway? I think lots of couples can get past affairs and he seems genuinely intent on rebuilding things, but I also wonder if you're getting the truth, 100%, and whether that matters.
Hope things are better, OP. I agree on the post-nup.
Let me ask you this: do you believe him 100%? is he a good liar? Would you be able to get past an affair if he confessed? would you if he did't and you found out anyway? I think lots of couples can get past affairs and he seems genuinely intent on rebuilding things, but I also wonder if you're getting the truth, 100%, and whether that matters.
Hope things are better, OP. I agree on the post-nup.
Anonymous
12/20/2017 13:35
Subject: He runs with her 5-6 days a week.
OP, do you honestly still believe they were running?!
Anonymous
12/20/2017 13:06
Subject: Re:He runs with her 5-6 days a week.
I completely agree with this.
I too was a victim of an EA but this was before we got married. He too, sprung around like a boomerang once caught and poured his love and devotion onto me and the wedding. however, after weeks of therapy i realized that I would never truly be able to trust him again. He was willing to 'do what it took' to make us work, but for me, the odds were far greater this would happen again and i would have given more of my life (we were already together 8 years at the time).
He had an addictive personality and through himself into things. He tried to blame med school and a stress but the reality was he would always need to through himself into something or someone else. I would never be enough.
He married about a year after we broke up and they divorced a year later due to his infidelities. The adage is true. "Once a cheater, always a cheater".
Please walk away now and don't waste another minute on him. If you must stay and try, please get a Post nup as suggested above. That is the ONLY way you should even think of moving forward.
I too was a victim of an EA but this was before we got married. He too, sprung around like a boomerang once caught and poured his love and devotion onto me and the wedding. however, after weeks of therapy i realized that I would never truly be able to trust him again. He was willing to 'do what it took' to make us work, but for me, the odds were far greater this would happen again and i would have given more of my life (we were already together 8 years at the time).
He had an addictive personality and through himself into things. He tried to blame med school and a stress but the reality was he would always need to through himself into something or someone else. I would never be enough.
He married about a year after we broke up and they divorced a year later due to his infidelities. The adage is true. "Once a cheater, always a cheater".
Please walk away now and don't waste another minute on him. If you must stay and try, please get a Post nup as suggested above. That is the ONLY way you should even think of moving forward.
Anonymous
12/20/2017 11:59
Subject: He runs with her 5-6 days a week.
Anonymous wrote:Honestly, OP, having been the victim of infidelity myself, I'll give you some advice that I myself wish I had received -- negotiate a post-nup agreement. Even the act of negotiating it sends a very clear signal to your DH about expectations and consequences moving forward.
He has significantly violated the marriage even if it was only an EA. He spent at least a year lying to you. It is not fair to ask you to stay without making explicit the terms on which you are willing to stay and the consequences if he violates his promises to you again.
For me, terms would include complete transparency on whereabouts, including access to all phone and email and banking records. Terms would also include whatever I needed to be able to work full time (his participation in child/house/life care or paying for extra childcare instead of being forced to take on these myself.) And, finally, post-nup terms would be negotiated in terms of divorce, custody, financial split of assets, etc. These terms would have to enable me to stay in the home and have primary custody of any kids (no overnight visitation). I know people will whine about the latter, but 10 years after my split due to infidelity due in part to alcoholism, I will say that having full custody of my kids is the best thing that I did for them. They have plenty of visitation and have a decent relationship with their father, but being able to give them one stable home and one stable parent has meant that we have avoided a lot of the problems I see in my ex's family due to his own parent's alcoholism. I am hoping to break the cycle, and it looks like we are succeeding, but of course, I won't know for sure until the kids are older. I also know people will whine about the notion that a post-nup should be anything other than 50/50 and that their shouldn't be any "penalty to pay", I think the reality is that you are taking a HUGE gamble by staying and you are forgoing other potential opportunities to build a happy and stable life. Your choice has an opportunity cost that your husband should pay should he violate his promises to you.
If he balks at negotiating and signing a post-nup favorable to you, that tells you all you need to know about how sincere he is.
This is solid advice.
Anonymous
12/20/2017 11:12
Subject: He runs with her 5-6 days a week.
Honestly, OP, having been the victim of infidelity myself, I'll give you some advice that I myself wish I had received -- negotiate a post-nup agreement. Even the act of negotiating it sends a very clear signal to your DH about expectations and consequences moving forward.
He has significantly violated the marriage even if it was only an EA. He spent at least a year lying to you. It is not fair to ask you to stay without making explicit the terms on which you are willing to stay and the consequences if he violates his promises to you again.
For me, terms would include complete transparency on whereabouts, including access to all phone and email and banking records. Terms would also include whatever I needed to be able to work full time (his participation in child/house/life care or paying for extra childcare instead of being forced to take on these myself.) And, finally, post-nup terms would be negotiated in terms of divorce, custody, financial split of assets, etc. These terms would have to enable me to stay in the home and have primary custody of any kids (no overnight visitation). I know people will whine about the latter, but 10 years after my split due to infidelity due in part to alcoholism, I will say that having full custody of my kids is the best thing that I did for them. They have plenty of visitation and have a decent relationship with their father, but being able to give them one stable home and one stable parent has meant that we have avoided a lot of the problems I see in my ex's family due to his own parent's alcoholism. I am hoping to break the cycle, and it looks like we are succeeding, but of course, I won't know for sure until the kids are older. I also know people will whine about the notion that a post-nup should be anything other than 50/50 and that their shouldn't be any "penalty to pay", I think the reality is that you are taking a HUGE gamble by staying and you are forgoing other potential opportunities to build a happy and stable life. Your choice has an opportunity cost that your husband should pay should he violate his promises to you.
If he balks at negotiating and signing a post-nup favorable to you, that tells you all you need to know about how sincere he is.
He has significantly violated the marriage even if it was only an EA. He spent at least a year lying to you. It is not fair to ask you to stay without making explicit the terms on which you are willing to stay and the consequences if he violates his promises to you again.
For me, terms would include complete transparency on whereabouts, including access to all phone and email and banking records. Terms would also include whatever I needed to be able to work full time (his participation in child/house/life care or paying for extra childcare instead of being forced to take on these myself.) And, finally, post-nup terms would be negotiated in terms of divorce, custody, financial split of assets, etc. These terms would have to enable me to stay in the home and have primary custody of any kids (no overnight visitation). I know people will whine about the latter, but 10 years after my split due to infidelity due in part to alcoholism, I will say that having full custody of my kids is the best thing that I did for them. They have plenty of visitation and have a decent relationship with their father, but being able to give them one stable home and one stable parent has meant that we have avoided a lot of the problems I see in my ex's family due to his own parent's alcoholism. I am hoping to break the cycle, and it looks like we are succeeding, but of course, I won't know for sure until the kids are older. I also know people will whine about the notion that a post-nup should be anything other than 50/50 and that their shouldn't be any "penalty to pay", I think the reality is that you are taking a HUGE gamble by staying and you are forgoing other potential opportunities to build a happy and stable life. Your choice has an opportunity cost that your husband should pay should he violate his promises to you.
If he balks at negotiating and signing a post-nup favorable to you, that tells you all you need to know about how sincere he is.
Anonymous
12/20/2017 11:02
Subject: He runs with her 5-6 days a week.
I can't speak to the therapist's intent behind the statements about the link between the alcoholism and cheating, but I think it's not helpful to think of the alcoholism as causing or excusing his lying and relationship outside your marriage (be it emotional or physical).
Your DH is a practiced liar. What you know about so far is the relationship with this woman and a drinking problem. Whatever mental health and brain issues he has that manifest as alcoholism can easily go hand-in-hand with other addictive behaviors like seeking extra-marital positive feelings about himself. It's all very concerning.
It's not insurmountable, but this is a long-haul thing (if you even want to try). I suggest thinking long and hard about what YOU want and do not rely on his statements about what he wants as any kind of guarantee or guide as to what you want. Read and research about alcoholism, addiction, lying, affairs. Recovery is possible but most people go back to these behaviors (despite saying "never again" and meaning it at the time), even if temporarily. Can you live with more of this? Can you live with the doubts and be happy?
To me the signs that he's all-in on the marriage sound like more gung-ho addictive behavior. He's all over the place. He went from daily romantic contact over an extended period with another woman to being super present in your and the kids' lives? How long is that going to last and be satisfying for him? Can you accept that he was pouring his emotional resources into another woman for so long and now like a rubber band has snapped back and it goes to you now? For how long?
Your DH is a practiced liar. What you know about so far is the relationship with this woman and a drinking problem. Whatever mental health and brain issues he has that manifest as alcoholism can easily go hand-in-hand with other addictive behaviors like seeking extra-marital positive feelings about himself. It's all very concerning.
It's not insurmountable, but this is a long-haul thing (if you even want to try). I suggest thinking long and hard about what YOU want and do not rely on his statements about what he wants as any kind of guarantee or guide as to what you want. Read and research about alcoholism, addiction, lying, affairs. Recovery is possible but most people go back to these behaviors (despite saying "never again" and meaning it at the time), even if temporarily. Can you live with more of this? Can you live with the doubts and be happy?
To me the signs that he's all-in on the marriage sound like more gung-ho addictive behavior. He's all over the place. He went from daily romantic contact over an extended period with another woman to being super present in your and the kids' lives? How long is that going to last and be satisfying for him? Can you accept that he was pouring his emotional resources into another woman for so long and now like a rubber band has snapped back and it goes to you now? For how long?
Anonymous
12/20/2017 10:58
Subject: Re:He runs with her 5-6 days a week.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:How is an alcoholic getting up at 5:30 AM and running? How much was he drinking? That's "higher functioning" than anyone I have ever heard of.
Yeah to run 5-12 miles at 5:30 am 5-6 days a week and also be an alcoholic to the point that his counselor said all of his actions, even ones he took while sober (no drinking during work etc, correct?), were due to that?
Hmmm.
My guess is because they weren't running
Anonymous
12/20/2017 10:53
Subject: Re:He runs with her 5-6 days a week.
Anonymous wrote:How is an alcoholic getting up at 5:30 AM and running? How much was he drinking? That's "higher functioning" than anyone I have ever heard of.
Yeah to run 5-12 miles at 5:30 am 5-6 days a week and also be an alcoholic to the point that his counselor said all of his actions, even ones he took while sober (no drinking during work etc, correct?), were due to that?
Hmmm.
Anonymous
12/20/2017 10:49
Subject: Re:He runs with her 5-6 days a week.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Daily for more than a year. And all day?
I don’t know if a one-night stand after he’d been drinking would’ve been worse.
So sorry OP. Did he cut it off with her completely?
OP. I wonder which would have been worse too. Yes, he cut things off that day, Nov 7 (blocked her phone number, defriended on FB, etc) and wrote her an e-mail:
"I can’t run with you tomorrow. And I can’t run Friday or this weekend or ever again. I have come to believe that though I may have not broken any physical rules in our late night walks back to your car, those were not honorable to my marriage. Even though those walks stopped sometime ago, and our friendship has strengthened without that underlying tone, my wife and my children deserve 100% focus that our runs detract from. I don’t want to talk about it, please."
She wrote back, "Read and understood. Have a nice life."
Ugh! Something about that response hits a nerve. Almost as if his letter is conveying "what really happened" and she's like, "got it!".
"Have a nice life" sounds like she was pretty angry, which means that his message was genuinely a cut-off message. Think about it. If I had a friend who said they could no longer see me, I'd be pretty upset. If I had an emotional AP, I'd be even more upset.
OP, I don't think any of this is great, but I wouldn't walk away from this marriage just yet. If you believe they didn't jump into bed for over a year, then that tells you about a level of respect he has had for you and a level of commitment for your marriage that is honestly higher than typical.
The easiest piece of advice for the Internet to tell you is to walk away. But life is not so black and white. Certainly if he does anything like this again, I'd say game over. But from what you've shared, I think you may have a basically decent guy on your hands. Good luck to you.
New Poster here but I basically agree w/ this pp. I think that you are very early in the "recovery" stages for your marriage, as is your husband regarding his alcoholism. I see/hear two generally well-meaning people, who still have some significant attachments to each other, have built a family together, etc... That is no small thing. And the hurt of the past year and a half is no small thing either. Don't expect yourself to be able or ready to wipe the slate clean in just a few weeks, and don't assume that you have to write off the marriage either.
Give this time, continued best and honest effort, and do your level best to be kind and decent to yourself and your husband. Then see what time brings.
I wish you the best.
Anonymous
12/20/2017 10:03
Subject: Re:He runs with her 5-6 days a week.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Daily for more than a year. And all day?
I don’t know if a one-night stand after he’d been drinking would’ve been worse.
So sorry OP. Did he cut it off with her completely?
OP. I wonder which would have been worse too. Yes, he cut things off that day, Nov 7 (blocked her phone number, defriended on FB, etc) and wrote her an e-mail:
"I can’t run with you tomorrow. And I can’t run Friday or this weekend or ever again. I have come to believe that though I may have not broken any physical rules in our late night walks back to your car, those were not honorable to my marriage. Even though those walks stopped sometime ago, and our friendship has strengthened without that underlying tone, my wife and my children deserve 100% focus that our runs detract from. I don’t want to talk about it, please."
She wrote back, "Read and understood. Have a nice life."
And she's like, "f off, you chose your wife over me, which was not our implicit agreement."
Ugh! Something about that response hits a nerve. Almost as if his letter is conveying "what really happened" and she's like, "got it!".
Yup. All very fake, really saying, "I got busted, babe."
Agree with all of the above. He set out what he wanted her to repeat if ever asked.
He should have just said: "I can’t run with you tomorrow. And I can’t run Friday or this weekend or ever again. Don't ever contact me again. Ever."
All the rest is "cover my ass" desperation.
OP - I am sorry. I don't know if you'll ever know the full story.
Yes! The message is transparent. Why mention the parameters of their relationship like that? It's not natural and rather odd--the most likely explanation being that he was communicating what the story should be.
OP, I think you know this, but there are so many concerns here--from the alcoholism to the daily contact with someone, lying right in your face. It's a hard thing because he's going overboard now being "present" -- and how can you trust that? I'd always wonder if it was a cover. If he's an addict he's an adept liar, including with himself. I wouldn't be surprised if he has an explicit agreement with this woman, including about how she was supposed to respond ("read and understood" ???) and he's still seeing her or will.
Anonymous
12/20/2017 09:29
Subject: Re:He runs with her 5-6 days a week.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Daily for more than a year. And all day?
I don’t know if a one-night stand after he’d been drinking would’ve been worse.
So sorry OP. Did he cut it off with her completely?
OP. I wonder which would have been worse too. Yes, he cut things off that day, Nov 7 (blocked her phone number, defriended on FB, etc) and wrote her an e-mail:
"I can’t run with you tomorrow. And I can’t run Friday or this weekend or ever again. I have come to believe that though I may have not broken any physical rules in our late night walks back to your car, those were not honorable to my marriage. Even though those walks stopped sometime ago, and our friendship has strengthened without that underlying tone, my wife and my children deserve 100% focus that our runs detract from. I don’t want to talk about it, please."
She wrote back, "Read and understood. Have a nice life."
Ugh! Something about that response hits a nerve. Almost as if his letter is conveying "what really happened" and she's like, "got it!".
"Have a nice life" sounds like she was pretty angry, which means that his message was genuinely a cut-off message. Think about it. If I had a friend who said they could no longer see me, I'd be pretty upset. If I had an emotional AP, I'd be even more upset.
OP, I don't think any of this is great, but I wouldn't walk away from this marriage just yet. If you believe they didn't jump into bed for over a year, then that tells you about a level of respect he has had for you and a level of commitment for your marriage that is honestly higher than typical.
The easiest piece of advice for the Internet to tell you is to walk away. But life is not so black and white. Certainly if he does anything like this again, I'd say game over. But from what you've shared, I think you may have a basically decent guy on your hands. Good luck to you.
Anonymous
12/20/2017 08:47
Subject: He runs with her 5-6 days a week.
Anonymous wrote:Check out Esther Perel and her new book on infidelity. Check out podcasts where she's been interviewed.
Oh, god, I hate Esther Perel. I know she's really popular, but she basically is biased toward non-monogamy and shared blame for the infidelity. I really don't have the same world view as her. IMO, if people want to cheat, they really need to own up to it first with the partner -- say you want an open marriage or a divorce -- anything less is manipulation of your unknowing partner into participating in a sexual relationship that appears consensual on the surface but really isn't consensual, because you have hidden all the details that are important to consensual sexual dexision-making.
Anonymous
12/20/2017 07:55
Subject: He runs with her 5-6 days a week.
This would definitely bother me