Anonymous wrote:

Will it eliminate rape? No it will not. The people who have the urge to rape will rape.

Will it reduce rape? No it will not. It will increase the instances where even innocent contact is now rape. It will inf act define all sexual contact as rape, and you'll see alot more falsely accused men. It will have the counter effect of making real rape victims less believed. I used to feel really sorry and want to help rape victims. Now my first question is. what if...she is making it up.

You should care about what consent and what rape means. Because it has dire consequences for people's lives. The problem is now that noone knows what consent is anymore. Its not clear cutnow that every interaction is rape. Rape used to be clear cut.

Oh, the good old days, when everybody knew that rape was a strange man jumping out of the bushes and beating a woman over the head, and somebody using your body sexually without your consent under any other circumstances was simply your own damn fault, you slut, you were probably asking for it.

People known darn well what consent is -- if they want to. It's only people who talk about "real rape" who find the idea so complicated and confusing.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

What I object to is the assumption that just if mothers teach their sons to respect women, the issue of rape will disappear. The truth is MOST MEN WILL NOT DREAM OF RAPING WOMEN. Its a subset of evil people, no matter how much you teach them to respect the other person, who will commit evil crimes.

When it comes to rape, the whole issue why people are focusing on this teach your son to respect women is due to a supposed epidemic of rape. So that's why we are talking about false rape accusations because we are pointing out is unfair to assume all men are evil people out to rape women, and that currently the whole climate of rape has warped what rape actually is..leading to every contact being suddenly sexual assault.

You keep talking about don't have sexual contact with a person without their consent. We're pointing out to you that it is hard to prove consent even when there was consent. This is a serious issue that can derail a young man's life. So yes we take false accusations of rape seriously. Just as we take a rape victim seriously. In this current climate there are victims on both sides.

The issue of rape, or actual rapes? I don't care if the issue of rape disappears or doesn't disappear. I do care if rape disappears. That would be great.

However, as you say, mothers (or fathers) teaching their sons to respect women will not eliminate rape. Everybody teaching everybody about the importance of affirmative consent (not just no means no, but also yes means yes) will also not eliminate rape. Will it reduce rape, though? Yes. Will it reduce the ability of people who want to rape to get away with rape? Yes. Those are two very worthwhile goals, in my opinion. Do you agree?

Also, I am not a police officer, prosecutor, defense attorney, judge, university dean, or relative of a person who is the subject of a rape accusation I believe to be false. (Are you?) So I am not very interested in legal/administrative standards for proving consent, after the fact. I am much more interested in people only having sexual contact with consenting partners.

Will it eliminate rape? No it will not. The people who have the urge to rape will rape.

Will it reduce rape? No it will not. It will increase the instances where even innocent contact is now rape. It will inf act define all sexual contact as rape, and you'll see alot more falsely accused men. It will have the counter effect of making real rape victims less believed. I used to feel really sorry and want to help rape victims. Now my first question is. what if...she is making it up.

You should care about what consent and what rape means. Because it has dire consequences for people's lives. The problem is now that noone knows what consent is anymore. Its not clear cutnow that every interaction is rape. Rape used to be clear cut.

Anonymous wrote:

What I object to is the assumption that just if mothers teach their sons to respect women, the issue of rape will disappear. The truth is MOST MEN WILL NOT DREAM OF RAPING WOMEN. Its a subset of evil people, no matter how much you teach them to respect the other person, who will commit evil crimes.

When it comes to rape, the whole issue why people are focusing on this teach your son to respect women is due to a supposed epidemic of rape. So that's why we are talking about false rape accusations because we are pointing out is unfair to assume all men are evil people out to rape women, and that currently the whole climate of rape has warped what rape actually is..leading to every contact being suddenly sexual assault.

You keep talking about don't have sexual contact with a person without their consent. We're pointing out to you that it is hard to prove consent even when there was consent. This is a serious issue that can derail a young man's life. So yes we take false accusations of rape seriously. Just as we take a rape victim seriously. In this current climate there are victims on both sides.

The issue of rape, or actual rapes? I don't care if the issue of rape disappears or doesn't disappear. I do care if rape disappears. That would be great.

However, as you say, mothers (or fathers) teaching their sons to respect women will not eliminate rape. Everybody teaching everybody about the importance of affirmative consent (not just no means no, but also yes means yes) will also not eliminate rape. Will it reduce rape, though? Yes. Will it reduce the ability of people who want to rape to get away with rape? Yes. Those are two very worthwhile goals, in my opinion. Do you agree?

Also, I am not a police officer, prosecutor, defense attorney, judge, university dean, or relative of a person who is the subject of a rape accusation I believe to be false. (Are you?) So I am not very interested in legal/administrative standards for proving consent, after the fact. I am much more interested in people only having sexual contact with consenting partners.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Not everyone has time on DCUM to sift through 22 pages to find one instance. However it is pretty clear. If you want to talk about rape you have to admit that there is a growing problem of false rape accusations and it is not clear cut as "not giving consent".

There is a growing problem of false rape accusations? There are more false rape accusations than there used to be? Could you cite some evidence for this statement, please?

But, in fact, it is entirely possible, not to mention reasonable, to talk about rape without talking about false rape accusations, just as it is possible to talk about (for example) burglary without talking about insurance fraud, or workplace injuries without false workers' compensation claims. Don't have sexual contact with a person without their consent; don't take stuff from people's houses without their permission; don't expose your workers to unsafe working conditions.

What I object to is the assumption that just if mothers teach their sons to respect women, the issue of rape will disappear. The truth is MOST MEN WILL NOT DREAM OF RAPING WOMEN. Its a subset of evil people, no matter how much you teach them to respect the other person, who will commit evil crimes.

When it comes to rape, the whole issue why people are focusing on this teach your son to respect women is due to a supposed epidemic of rape. So that's why we are talking about false rape accusations because we are pointing out is unfair to assume all men are evil people out to rape women, and that currently the whole climate of rape has warped what rape actually is..leading to every contact being suddenly sexual assault.

You keep talking about don't have sexual contact with a person without their consent. We're pointing out to you that it is hard to prove consent even when there was consent. This is a serious issue that can derail a young man's life. So yes we take false accusations of rape seriously. Just as we take a rape victim seriously. In this current climate there are victims on both sides.

Anonymous wrote:

Not everyone has time on DCUM to sift through 22 pages to find one instance. However it is pretty clear. If you want to talk about rape you have to admit that there is a growing problem of false rape accusations and it is not clear cut as "not giving consent".

There is a growing problem of false rape accusations? There are more false rape accusations than there used to be? Could you cite some evidence for this statement, please?

But, in fact, it is entirely possible, not to mention reasonable, to talk about rape without talking about false rape accusations, just as it is possible to talk about (for example) burglary without talking about insurance fraud, or workplace injuries without false workers' compensation claims. Don't have sexual contact with a person without their consent; don't take stuff from people's houses without their permission; don't expose your workers to unsafe working conditions.

Anonymous wrote:

No actually most people are saying the women does not need to take responsibility.

Two adults get drunk, both have sketchy memories of the night before, they have sex, but only the male is being accused of rape. Most people are saying that the girl does not need to take responsibility for having sex with a drunk partner.

Who is saying that? Specific citations, please.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Don't stop there...

It is also impossible to work together towards a gender -equitable society without teaching one's daughter that she must take responsibility for her actions and be culpable for those decisions.

Nobody is saying that girls and women need not take responsibility for their own actions and the consequences of those actions. Nobody.

But if you want to spend your time arguing against something that nobody is arguing for, you are free to do so.

No actually most people are saying the women does not need to take responsibility.

Two adults get drunk, both have sketchy memories of the night before, they have sex, but only the male is being accused of rape. Most people are saying that the girl does not need to take responsibility for having sex with a drunk partner.

please. throughout this whole discussion every time someone tried to talk about false rape accusations being a real issue it was quickly brushed aside. When asked to define what consent could consist of and how to prove it that was quickly brushed aside too.

Not everyone has time on DCUM to sift through 22 pages to find one instance. However it is pretty clear. If you want to talk about rape you have to admit that there is a growing problem of false rape accusations and it is not clear cut as "not giving consent".

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2015/06/02/why-do-high-profile-campus-rape-stories-keep-falling-apart/?hpid=z3

If you were to ask an average person today to name a prominent story about rape on college campuses, odds are pretty good that among the top four or five replies would be the Duke lacrosse case, the Rolling Stone cover story about Jackie and the University of Virginia, Columbia University “mattress girl” Emma Sulkowicz and one of the stories from “The Hunting Ground.” Yet in all of these stories, either the accusations were later shown to be a complete fabrication or at least serious questions were raised about them.

Each time a new high-profile story falls apart, a larger portion of the public becomes less likely to believe the next one. (It would be nice to think that we’d evaluate these stories on their own merits. But that isn’t how we tend to process contentious issues.) The anti-campus rape activists often claim that false accusations of sexual assault are practically nonexistent. (“Anti-campus rape activists” is a necessary but admittedly clumsy term. Every sane person is obviously opposed to campus rape. And even among activists who have made campus rape their issue, there is dissent and disagreement about strategy, priorities and reform.) But that so many of the accusations that they themselves have chosen as emblems of the cause have been proved false or debatable suggests that they’re either wrong about the frequency of false accusations or that the movement itself has had some extraordinarily bad luck.

Calculating the frequency of false rape accusations is even more difficult than studying the frequency of rape. Consequently, the researchers and activists who have tried have put this figure all over the map, from a fraction of a percent to as high as 40 percent. My own hunch is that they’re much more common than “almost never,” which activists claim, but nowhere nearly as common as their apparent occurrence in these high-profile cases. So why do anti-campus rape activists keep shooting themselves in the foot? Something else must be at play.


this isn’t an argument that college students (and anti-rape activists in particular) never get raped. Nor is it an argument that accusations should never be believed. Nor is it an argument that rape victims should be ashamed to come forward. It’s only to say that generally speaking, an alleged victim eager to generate publicity about what happened to her may require more verification than an alleged victim who is reluctant to come forward. All else being equal, reluctant witnesses are more persuasive than eager ones. (Of course, all else is rarely equal.)

Finally, it may be that activists deliberately seek out and champion the ambiguous cases to demonstrate their commitment to the cause

But the “believe every accuser” approach to this issue is proving to be destructive to both goals. It’s obviously destructive to the men who have been wrongly accused and whose reputations and lives have been ruined. But it’s also destructive to actual victims of sexual assault. Every high-profile story that crumbles under scrutiny reinforces the perception that false accusations are common. And that only makes it more difficult to hold the real assailants accountable.

Anonymous wrote: However, some of you are actually refusing to admit there is also a subset of women/girls who think nothing of falsely accusing a boy or man of rape.

Where? Show just one post of someone doing this. And saying that it's more rare than rape itself is not the same as saying it never happens. We are all aware that people lie.

So again, show just ONE POST where anyone is refusing to admit this ever happens.

Anonymous wrote:

Don't stop there...

It is also impossible to work together towards a gender -equitable society without teaching one's daughter that she must take responsibility for her actions and be culpable for those decisions.

Nobody is saying that girls and women need not take responsibility for their own actions and the consequences of those actions. Nobody.

But if you want to spend your time arguing against something that nobody is arguing for, you are free to do so.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reason is because all this hand wringing over rape and how young men don't respect women is focused on a supposed epidemic of rape on campuses. Which is not true.

I mean look at the title of this thread - teach your sons how to respect women.

What about working together towards a gender equity society?

You are correct that in real life, women are at more risk of rape off campus than on campus. But the whole hysteria now surrounds campuses and "young men".

The problem is rape. On-campus, off-campus, wherever. Rape is a problem. When we talk about rape, we should talk about rape. If you want to talk about campus codes of conduct, please do so -- as a separate discussion.

Also, in my mind, there is no contradiction between teaching one's sons to respect women and working together towards a gender-equitable society. On the contrary, it's impossible to work together towards a gender-equitable society without teaching one's sons to respect women.

Don't stop there...

It is also impossible to work together towards a gender -equitable society without teaching one's daughter that she must take responsibility for her actions and be culpable for those decisions.

yes we are talking about rape. And we're talking about how the definition of rape and consent has become ridiculous. so eveyrthing we talk about campus codes is relevant. Because this discussion is starting on the campus, the whole affirmative consent discussion is starting on campus and our high schools. So yes it is relevant.

Anonymous wrote:The reason is because all this hand wringing over rape and how young men don't respect women is focused on a supposed epidemic of rape on campuses. Which is not true.

I mean look at the title of this thread - teach your sons how to respect women.

What about working together towards a gender equity society?

You are correct that in real life, women are at more risk of rape off campus than on campus. But the whole hysteria now surrounds campuses and "young men".

The problem is rape. On-campus, off-campus, wherever. Rape is a problem. When we talk about rape, we should talk about rape. If you want to talk about campus codes of conduct, please do so -- as a separate discussion.

Also, in my mind, there is no contradiction between teaching one's sons to respect women and working together towards a gender-equitable society. On the contrary, it's impossible to work together towards a gender-equitable society without teaching one's sons to respect women.

The reason is because all this hand wringing over rape and how young men don't respect women is focused on a supposed epidemic of rape on campuses. Which is not true.

I mean look at the title of this thread - teach your sons how to respect women.

What about working together towards a gender equity society?

You are correct that in real life, women are at more risk of rape off campus than on campus. But the whole hysteria now surrounds campuses and "young men".

Anonymous wrote:yeah but everything is now conflated. For all your harping on consent, you still can't define what consent is really and that people consent and then say they don't consent. Thats the reason for all those high profile fake rape cases that are now breaking down.

Laura Kipnis puts it well:

In the meantime, Ezra Klein is praising Laura Kipnis — who was targeted not for her outré feminism or for the quality of her work, but because she wrote against “sexual paranoia”; noted that, on campus, “gropers become rapists and accusers become survivors, opening the door for another panicky conflation: teacher-student sex and incest”; and warned that “the myths and fantasies about power perpetuated in these new codes are leaving our students disabled when it comes to the ordinary interpersonal tangles and erotic confusions that pretty much everyone has to deal with at some point in life.”

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/419271/tide-turning-against-pc-charles-c-w-cooke

There are lots of things that exist in law that people can't define. Pornography, famously. "Reasonable" is another example. "The age of consent" is a long-standing legal thing, and you can't have the idea of an age of consent without the idea of consent.

Also, which "all those high profile fake rape cases that are now breaking down"? Fake rape? Fake cases? Which? If somebody says that they were raped, but the sexual activity was actually consensual, or there wasn't any sexual activity at all, that's not "fake rape" -- that's a false accusation.

Finally, I really don't understand some people's fixation on campus codes of conduct. Most people, for most of their lives, are not on campus. And yet discussions of rape invariably get derailed into discussions of campus codes of conduct. Why?