I sort of agree with you, but I sort of don't. I think that the acceptance of sex as something that starts much earlier than it used to is partly responsible for the commodification of women as sex objects. I know it's always happened, but if you look at pop culture now, it's so focused on women and girls as sex objects, and with them not having value for any other reason, I think it's partly due to the fact that it's happening before kids have the intellectual maturity to realize that it's devaluing them.

I don't mean to be critical... this has been said over and over again for at least 30 years. We still have the exact same problems, so this dialog is not changing anything.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/31/rapebait-fraternity-georgia-tech_n_6082952.html Unfortunately nothing will change until people/fraternities/universities are sued.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The social environment for college women is hostile. Those songs were disgusting. This is not limited to UVA. College guys love to make up barbaric chants to label women sluts any chance they get. In Boston the girls from Simmons were called "Simmons mattress". From Pine Manor they were called "Pine Mattress". The girls going from Wellesley to MIT or Harvard arrived on the "f**k truck". I think they mentioned the lovely chant from Yale bros "No means Yes, and Yes means anal." All around them everyone is drunk. No one dates, they only hookup and act like sex is just an act where you can turn all emotions off. After they graduate they arrive in cities like DC where other women look down on them if they want serious relationships that could lead to marriage. This is all nuts. Young women in their 20's have hormones and emotions that are craving male attention because it is biological but they also hope that they can make emotional connections at the same time. Instead the environment has men trying to use women any chance they get, everyone is drunk and high and then they chase money and careers. The sexual revolution certainly has a dark side where men just find another way to put women down.

I was with you until this turned into a "Bring back dating" nostalgia trip. Plenty of women got raped in the Golden Age of Dating, whenever that was. And they were taught to blame themselves, or at least doubt themselves, too.

What will stop rape is an end to rape culture -- to treating women as objects whose desires, whatever they are, are secondary to men's desires to put their bodily parts where they aren't welcome.

Maybe that will result in a wholesale return to sex only within the context of monogamous relationships or maybe people will continue to hook up. That's not my business, and it's not yours, either. But it would mean a society where any sex that isn't fully consensual is condemned by society, and the condemnation is limited to the perpetrator, not coexistent with a crapton of second-guessing the victim.

I sort of agree with you, but I sort of don't. I think that the acceptance of sex as something that starts much earlier than it used to is partly responsible for the commodification of women as sex objects. I know it's always happened, but if you look at pop culture now, it's so focused on women and girls as sex objects, and with them not having value for any other reason, I think it's partly due to the fact that it's happening before kids have the intellectual maturity to realize that it's devaluing them.

Anonymous wrote:

The social environment for college women is hostile. Those songs were disgusting. This is not limited to UVA. College guys love to make up barbaric chants to label women sluts any chance they get. In Boston the girls from Simmons were called "Simmons mattress". From Pine Manor they were called "Pine Mattress". The girls going from Wellesley to MIT or Harvard arrived on the "f**k truck". I think they mentioned the lovely chant from Yale bros "No means Yes, and Yes means anal." All around them everyone is drunk. No one dates, they only hookup and act like sex is just an act where you can turn all emotions off. After they graduate they arrive in cities like DC where other women look down on them if they want serious relationships that could lead to marriage. This is all nuts. Young women in their 20's have hormones and emotions that are craving male attention because it is biological but they also hope that they can make emotional connections at the same time. Instead the environment has men trying to use women any chance they get, everyone is drunk and high and then they chase money and careers. The sexual revolution certainly has a dark side where men just find another way to put women down.

I was with you until this turned into a "Bring back dating" nostalgia trip. Plenty of women got raped in the Golden Age of Dating, whenever that was. And they were taught to blame themselves, or at least doubt themselves, too.

What will stop rape is an end to rape culture -- to treating women as objects whose desires, whatever they are, are secondary to men's desires to put their bodily parts where they aren't welcome.

Maybe that will result in a wholesale return to sex only within the context of monogamous relationships or maybe people will continue to hook up. That's not my business, and it's not yours, either. But it would mean a society where any sex that isn't fully consensual is condemned by society, and the condemnation is limited to the perpetrator, not coexistent with a crapton of second-guessing the victim.

Remember, you can report what happened and decide not to bring charges. You should ALWAYS seek medical attention. When your kids go to college, learn what area hospitals actually have SAME nurses on staff. Here, it's WHC. If you go to the ER at GW to report a sexual assault, they will not have a person qualified to process a SAFE kit. Not a lot of people know that.

This is very true, my husband is an MD and he also says the SAFE kit is not available in every hospital emergency room. If I remember correctly, it requires a special secured locker (evidence locker) and training. If you call a rape crisis hotline they can direct you and, at least in this area, will send someone to go with you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_kit#Description_and_use

I have two girls, to think I'll have to pass this information on to them when they go to college is heartbreaking.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:US News and World Report needs to make a list of college rankings where the environment is most hostile towards women. College bros getting drunk, chanting sexual slurs at women, using women, raping women. Just sick.

so pretty much every college campus

Isn't that the sad truth.

Anonymous wrote:I read the RS article, the follow-up article about others coming forward, and a few pages of this thread. What a sad story. I don't know what happened to Jackie that night, but I'm sure that she was wronged. Like a few pps, I struggle with the thought of seven offenders. I don't understand how she isn't ready to file charges. She has done a pretty great job at making the incident public - why not keep going?

I support the Greek system. I think that it is different at each school and probably from house to house, but generally I think it can be good. Incidents like this give all frats a bad name, and that is a shame. The good frat members should see this an opportunity and lead the charge for reform.

Last, I think the drinking age should change to 18 or 19. Move some of the partying from frats and to the bars.

You are part of the problem. You feel bad for Jackie but you don't believe her, you support the trashy Greek system, and you think people will drink less by starting early (like there is no alcohol abuse or alcoholism in Europe). No wonder the cycle continues.

Anonymous wrote:I read the RS article, the follow-up article about others coming forward, and a few pages of this thread. What a sad story. I don't know what happened to Jackie that night, but I'm sure that she was wronged. Like a few pps, I struggle with the thought of seven offenders. I don't understand how she isn't ready to file charges. She has done a pretty great job at making the incident public - why not keep going?

I support the Greek system. I think that it is different at each school and probably from house to house, but generally I think it can be good. Incidents like this give all frats a bad name, and that is a shame. The good frat members should see this an opportunity and lead the charge for reform.

Last, I think the drinking age should change to 18 or 19. Move some of the partying from frats and to the bars.

I agree that it's different from house to house, but I do not have ANY issues with the idea of fucked up group think during rush season, with deliberate humiliation and hazing of the rushees (not to mention their victims' humiliation). I don't understand why this is so hard to believe. There are hundreds of accounts of the demeaning way that many fraternities treat women - from former frat members, from women associated either willingly or unwillingly with the frats, from researchers. I agree that it's an opportunity for the upstanding human beings who choose to participate in this system to stand up for justice and morality, but it's clear that the social incentives for not doing that are too much for a lot of young people of both genders to resist.

Think about what was important to you when you were 18 years old, away from home for possibly the first time. Community. Being liked. Feeling grown up. Now imagine that something horrible happens to you. What do you do? Turn to your community. Call a friend to come get you. Go to the friendly university administrator. That's what we'd want our children to do, right? Now imagine that your friend comes to you, with this kind of story. Imagine that you're in a cutthroat system where associating with a person who accuses in this way could result in your social isolation. That's not fair, right? You weren't even there, you weren't part of it. You shouldn't be punished just because you know someone who is no longer on the approved list, right? I have no doubt whatsoever that many people involved in the situation have the best intentions. They probably think they're good people who care. Unfortunately, those friends and those administrators are contributing to the culture that discourages reporting.

I say this as a person who has sat at hospitals and police stations with friends who have reported sexual assaults. The questions that are asked of victims are triggering. They are asked to describe exactly what happened. They are not always asked in sensitive ways. Questions like "Had you been drinking?" and "What were you wearing?" can feel like accusations, especially hours after the crime. I agree that reporting is important. I would love if there was an effort to make it easier. I think the dean at UVA sounds like a nice person who has been treating victims with compassion and making them feel safe, in the immediate moment. I do not think she has been acting in their best interests by keeping the reporting on campus.

Remember, you can report what happened and decide not to bring charges. You should ALWAYS seek medical attention. When your kids go to college, learn what area hospitals actually have SAME nurses on staff. Here, it's WHC. If you go to the ER at GW to report a sexual assault, they will not have a person qualified to process a SAFE kit. Not a lot of people know that.

Anonymous wrote:US News and World Report needs to make a list of college rankings where the environment is most hostile towards women. College bros getting drunk, chanting sexual slurs at women, using women, raping women. Just sick.

so pretty much every college campus

Anyone remember the Jodie Foster movie where one m a n knows that what is happening is wrong and slips o ut and calls the police? If just one of those frat boys had called the police to stop these cretins, but not a single one did.

I went out with an alum of UVA who told me this story. He kept giving his date drinks and when she was drunk enougj, he auctioned her off to the highest bidder ($5.00) and this guy took her upstairs and had sex with her. I slapped him and threw my drink in his face. He called me the next day asking why I did that.

How does UVA get out of staff requiremented to be a mandatory reporter for crimes? I know mandatory reporter laws exist for primarily for children and elderly but it seems like they should be required to report a gang rape to proper legal authorities.

System is so woefully broken...

Sexual assault victims go to the university for help, the university's best interest is served in not reporting a rape.

The university sexual misconduct board investigates rape claims? I can't imagine they have the resources or staffing available to properly investigate any real crime.

I know you will say if people are mandated reporters victims won't go get help, it seems like victims are already not reporting due to this broken system and if there is no evidence collected or confession then there is no way to prosecute.

Everyone says this issue need to be spoken about and addressed, read in bold the reaction of the young men to the march and memorials but also pay attention to the fact that the person describing the reactions and fixing the memorial was male.

http://www.roanoke.com/news/education/higher_education/uva-protest-against-sexual-violence-swells-on-rugby-road/article_83c704fa-2b1f-56b1-af3d-2c30e6ae5d86.html

The fury in the crowd was palpable as speaker after speaker criticized responses from UVa President Teresa Sullivan and others in the wake of the exposé.

Claire Wyatt, a 2013 UVa graduate, dismissed the reaction that the article should “unite [students] rather than divide [them],” and praised the crowd’s “righteous anger.”

“As a survivor of sexual assault at UVa, I think our community should be divided,” Wyatt told the crowd. “It should be divided between the rapists, the assailants and those who would defend them, versus the rest of us that want to cut them out of our community.”
The protest did not proceed without criticism. Men lining the patio of a bar on The Corner were quick to yell “insults and slurs” at the protestors as they walked by, said Carl Goette-Luciak, a fifth-year student who helped to lead the march.

Others volleyed comments scorning the actions of the crowd as it marched through the streets, but Goette-Luciak contends that facing such a reaction was the protest’s way of “confronting the issue where it lives.”

“If male students at this school will deride the people who are demanding change, [if they] won’t take seriously how important this moment is, it just stresses the gravity of the situation we’re facing,” he said.

Later in the night, Goette-Luciak said he saw five students, both male and female, tearing down a memorial that students had created at Peabody Hall. In support of those who had been sexually assaulted, students had covered the doors of the administrative building with Post-it notes filled with stories of their experiences and encouragement toward survivors, he said. They also placed stones, creating a “small mountain” in front of the building, to symbolize survivors they knew.

Goette-Luciak said he walked past the memorial an hour or two after the protest when he saw students tearing down the notes and discarding the stones.

“We confronted them and they were very aggressive, very violent towards us,” he said. “One young man in particular, with chest puffed out, kept screaming, ‘What are you going to do about it?’ and then left.”

Goette-Luciak said he spent two hours taping the memorial back together, along with friend Danya Batallas, and called the university police to file a report.


“It sheds light on the fact that despite the outpouring of concern over the issue that the Rolling Stone has started, there are still indications that there are many in the UVa student body who are angered by the concern being given to the issue,” Goette-Luciak said.
As the protest began to wind down early in the morning Sunday, Victoria Olwell, a professor in UVa’s English department and organizer of the protest, took the stage.

“When we thought of this, we thought this was going to be an event with seven people,” Olwell said, commending the outpouring of student support. “I’m moved. I’m astonished to see all of you here today — you know this is only the beginning.”

I read the RS article, the follow-up article about others coming forward, and a few pages of this thread. What a sad story. I don't know what happened to Jackie that night, but I'm sure that she was wronged. Like a few pps, I struggle with the thought of seven offenders. I don't understand how she isn't ready to file charges. She has done a pretty great job at making the incident public - why not keep going?

I support the Greek system. I think that it is different at each school and probably from house to house, but generally I think it can be good. Incidents like this give all frats a bad name, and that is a shame. The good frat members should see this an opportunity and lead the charge for reform.

Last, I think the drinking age should change to 18 or 19. Move some of the partying from frats and to the bars.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That's my point pp...and I'm not blaming the victim. Rather, I'm blaming the anti-rape advocates who have failed to equip women with basic knowledge on how to navigate the aftermath of rape...coupled with a national advocacy group that holds their hands through the criminal proceedings.

Shouldn't we all be anti-rape advocates?

Also, you seem to think that there is one correct way to "navigate the aftermath of rape", that applies to all women. There isn't.

Then stop complaining when prosecutions aren't made because women fail to come forward immediately following rapes. Just stop.

No, I don't think I'll stop complaining about that. Why don't you stop being a rape culture apologist?

I'm not in any way a "rape culture apologist" - what a moronic statement. Why do you think we are calling on women to REPORT the rape? Just for fun? Jesus.

I don't think you're pro-rape, but you keep posting "report, report, report" without addressing any of the arguments why women don't report, or providing some ways we can make it safer and more effective for women to report. Your posts put the entire burden on the victim to put herself through a destructive system designed to fail as if that will stop rapes. And you refuse to acknowledge that.

So you may not be an apologist, but in terms of stopping rape, you are part of the problem.

First of all, there are plenty of posters here urging victims to report, not just me. You can imagine you're talking to just one person, but you'd be wrong.

Ok, fine. Attention all like-minded PPs: my post applies to you as well.

Secondly, I see you, and others like you, as a huge part of the problem yourselves. After a rape occurs, you're ones urging victims NOT to come forward, as it would just be too painful, etc.

No, I'm not, and there is not a single post in this thread telling rape victims NOT to come forward. Not a single one. There are many posts explaining why they wouldn't come forward, and many posts arguing that, under the circumstances, this is an understandable decision, but none of them are saying "Psst. Rape victims. Don't go to the cops!!"

I blame you for refusing to help women find it within themselves after a trauma such as rape, to do what needs to be done in order to at least TRY to bring these people to justice. I completely understand why a woman would desperately not want to come forward, and would prefer to pretend like it never happened. But exactly how will that help? You certainly haven't come up with anything more insightful than I. Unless your "solution" is to just round up all the men and have done with it.

I posted my solution at 9:11 am. Spoiler alert: it does not involve rounding up all men.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That's my point pp...and I'm not blaming the victim. Rather, I'm blaming the anti-rape advocates who have failed to equip women with basic knowledge on how to navigate the aftermath of rape...coupled with a national advocacy group that holds their hands through the criminal proceedings.

Shouldn't we all be anti-rape advocates?

Also, you seem to think that there is one correct way to "navigate the aftermath of rape", that applies to all women. There isn't.

Then stop complaining when prosecutions aren't made because women fail to come forward immediately following rapes. Just stop.

No, I don't think I'll stop complaining about that. Why don't you stop being a rape culture apologist?

I'm not in any way a "rape culture apologist" - what a moronic statement. Why do you think we are calling on women to REPORT the rape? Just for fun? Jesus.

I don't think you're pro-rape, but you keep posting "report, report, report" without addressing any of the arguments why women don't report, or providing some ways we can make it safer and more effective for women to report. Your posts put the entire burden on the victim to put herself through a destructive system designed to fail as if that will stop rapes. And you refuse to acknowledge that.

So you may not be an apologist, but in terms of stopping rape, you are part of the problem.

First of all, there are plenty of posters here urging victims to report, not just me. You can imagine you're talking to just one person, but you'd be wrong. Secondly, I see you, and others like you, as a huge part of the problem yourselves. After a rape occurs, you're ones urging victims NOT to come forward, as it would just be too painful, etc. I blame you for refusing to help women find it within themselves after a trauma such as rape, to do what needs to be done in order to at least TRY to bring these people to justice. I completely understand why a woman would desperately not want to come forward, and would prefer to pretend like it never happened. But exactly how will that help? You certainly haven't come up with anything more insightful than I. Unless your "solution" is to just round up all the men and have done with it.

Wow, talk about deliberately obtuse! Don't be stupid. No one is discouraging victims from reporting. Of course I want to give rape victims the counseling and encouragement they need to report. But what YOU are doing is saying "well, don't expect a prosecution if you don't report right away". Thus forgiving the system for failing the victim so badly. Of course if the victim has the wherewithal, s/he should report. But we need to recognize that it's perfectly understandable that a victim may NOT have that wherewithal. And NOT then say that "oh, well, you didn't report right away so we won't do anything about it". That's essentially putting a statute of limitations on rape of a day or a week. That's ridiculous.
By the way, you think you're "helping" victims with this excuse-making for piss poor prosecution rates? What do you do to help victims report? Do you do rape counseling? Or do you just sit there and tell them it's their fault their rapist goes free because they didn't report soon enough.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That's my point pp...and I'm not blaming the victim. Rather, I'm blaming the anti-rape advocates who have failed to equip women with basic knowledge on how to navigate the aftermath of rape...coupled with a national advocacy group that holds their hands through the criminal proceedings.

Shouldn't we all be anti-rape advocates?

Also, you seem to think that there is one correct way to "navigate the aftermath of rape", that applies to all women. There isn't.

Then stop complaining when prosecutions aren't made because women fail to come forward immediately following rapes. Just stop.

No, I don't think I'll stop complaining about that. Why don't you stop being a rape culture apologist?

I'm not in any way a "rape culture apologist" - what a moronic statement. Why do you think we are calling on women to REPORT the rape? Just for fun? Jesus.

Yes you are. You think it's fine to not prosecute because he traumatized victim doesn't report immediately. Apologist.

Seriously? Can you read at all? Apparently not.

Pretty good reader, yes. I seem to be able to read what you're saying better than you can. Or maybe you just don't know what an apologist is.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That's my point pp...and I'm not blaming the victim. Rather, I'm blaming the anti-rape advocates who have failed to equip women with basic knowledge on how to navigate the aftermath of rape...coupled with a national advocacy group that holds their hands through the criminal proceedings.

Shouldn't we all be anti-rape advocates?

Also, you seem to think that there is one correct way to "navigate the aftermath of rape", that applies to all women. There isn't.

Then stop complaining when prosecutions aren't made because women fail to come forward immediately following rapes. Just stop.

No, I don't think I'll stop complaining about that. Why don't you stop being a rape culture apologist?

I'm not in any way a "rape culture apologist" - what a moronic statement. Why do you think we are calling on women to REPORT the rape? Just for fun? Jesus.

Yes you are. You think it's fine to not prosecute because he traumatized victim doesn't report immediately. Apologist.

Seriously? Can you read at all? Apparently not.