Anonymous wrote:Somebody has had too many hot toddy’s tonight. Nobody is calling W&M the highest public ranked National University. Cmon now.

Why don't you actually read the post before you spout off?

Somebody has had too many hot toddy’s tonight. Nobody is calling W&M the highest public ranked National University. Cmon now.

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Anonymous wrote:Are the science programs really that bad at JMU?

I hesitate to say “bad”, but JMU definitely is very weak in real science degrees like Physics or Chem. The same science degree from ODU or GMU or VCU would be much much stronger, and obviously both UVa and VT have very credible science degrees. Going. to JMU for that degree will adversely impact one’s options at college graduation. Harder to get into a good grad science program from JMU and also harder to get a job. JMU would be OK if one’s career goal were o spend one’s life being a high school science teacher.

DP. Please list your source for the above claims. Nothing I have experienced - both with my own kids who are JMU grads (one in a science major) and many others we know - come even a little bit close to the fiction you're spinning. Thanks.

I'm the PP who asked the question, not the person who answered it, but I did find this:

https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-science-schools/chemistry-rankings

USNWR top 212 schools for chemistry:

42. UVA
67. VT
119. VCU
173. GMU
173. ODU
Not making the list: JMU

That is for graduate schools. Not undergraduate.

I don't think JMU has any graduate degree programs in chemistry. It would never appear on the list you cited. A school can be very good at undergraduate chemistry (e.g. Swarthmore) and it would never appear on the list you cited. However, their undergraduate program could be better than the undergraduate programs of many on the graduate list.

A better indicator of undergrad quality could be the numbers/% of students who go on to a chemistry PhD.
https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/top-feeders-phd-programs#chemistry

Top 4 by # = Berkeley, UNC, UCSD, UC Davis
Top 4 adjusted for college size = Cal Tech, Harvey Mudd, Carleton, Grinnell

FWIW Swarthmore is #16 in the "adjusted" list

VT is #29 in total, UVA is #42, UMD is #47, JMU doesn't make the list.

Of note, W&M is ranked at #15 in total, well ahead of VT , UVA, and UMD (and JMU) despite being much smaller. When adjusted for size, W&M is the highest ranked national public university.

What? There are 12 public universities ranked ahead of W&M in this ranking. No one is "adjusting for size."

No. Every one of those 12 public universities has an enrollment three times as large as W&M. (UNC is the closes at 3X.) If you do the math, W&M has a much higher "PhD Productivity" based on size than any of those schools. There are two privates above W&M, Cornell and Chicago, and both of them also have undergraduate enrollment higher than W&M. If you do the math, W&M also has a higher chemistry PhD Productivity than those two schools. There is a ranking adjusted for size on on the right side.

https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/top-feeders-phd-programs#chemistry

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Are the science programs really that bad at JMU?

I hesitate to say “bad”, but JMU definitely is very weak in real science degrees like Physics or Chem. The same science degree from ODU or GMU or VCU would be much much stronger, and obviously both UVa and VT have very credible science degrees. Going. to JMU for that degree will adversely impact one’s options at college graduation. Harder to get into a good grad science program from JMU and also harder to get a job. JMU would be OK if one’s career goal were o spend one’s life being a high school science teacher.

DP. Please list your source for the above claims. Nothing I have experienced - both with my own kids who are JMU grads (one in a science major) and many others we know - come even a little bit close to the fiction you're spinning. Thanks.

I'm the PP who asked the question, not the person who answered it, but I did find this:

https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-science-schools/chemistry-rankings

USNWR top 212 schools for chemistry:

42. UVA
67. VT
119. VCU
173. GMU
173. ODU
Not making the list: JMU

That is for graduate schools. Not undergraduate.

I don't think JMU has any graduate degree programs in chemistry. It would never appear on the list you cited. A school can be very good at undergraduate chemistry (e.g. Swarthmore) and it would never appear on the list you cited. However, their undergraduate program could be better than the undergraduate programs of many on the graduate list.

A better indicator of undergrad quality could be the numbers/% of students who go on to a chemistry PhD.
https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/top-feeders-phd-programs#chemistry

Top 4 by # = Berkeley, UNC, UCSD, UC Davis
Top 4 adjusted for college size = Cal Tech, Harvey Mudd, Carleton, Grinnell

FWIW Swarthmore is #16 in the "adjusted" list

VT is #29 in total, UVA is #42, UMD is #47, JMU doesn't make the list.

Of note, W&M is ranked at #15 in total, well ahead of VT , UVA, and UMD (and JMU) despite being much smaller. When adjusted for size, W&M is the highest ranked national public university.

What? There are 12 public universities ranked ahead of W&M in this ranking. No one is "adjusting for size."

If you are doing an eye roll, why don't you roll them over to the right side of the top feeder schools we page, where there is an "adjusted" rank. In it, W&M is ranked 30. No other national public university makes the top 50.

If you don't want to do that, and just want to focus on the overall totals, you can see that W&M is tied with the University of Texas at Austin and Penn State. The undergraduate enrollments of UT and Penn State are both 6.1X that of that of W&M.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are the science programs really that bad at JMU?

I hesitate to say “bad”, but JMU definitely is very weak in real science degrees like Physics or Chem. The same science degree from ODU or GMU or VCU would be much much stronger, and obviously both UVa and VT have very credible science degrees. Going. to JMU for that degree will adversely impact one’s options at college graduation. Harder to get into a good grad science program from JMU and also harder to get a job. JMU would be OK if one’s career goal were o spend one’s life being a high school science teacher.

DP. Please list your source for the above claims. Nothing I have experienced - both with my own kids who are JMU grads (one in a science major) and many others we know - come even a little bit close to the fiction you're spinning. Thanks.

I'm the PP who asked the question, not the person who answered it, but I did find this:

https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-science-schools/chemistry-rankings

USNWR top 212 schools for chemistry:

42. UVA
67. VT
119. VCU
173. GMU
173. ODU
Not making the list: JMU

That is for graduate schools. Not undergraduate.

I don't think JMU has any graduate degree programs in chemistry. It would never appear on the list you cited. A school can be very good at undergraduate chemistry (e.g. Swarthmore) and it would never appear on the list you cited. However, their undergraduate program could be better than the undergraduate programs of many on the graduate list.

A better indicator of undergrad quality could be the numbers/% of students who go on to a chemistry PhD.
https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/top-feeders-phd-programs#chemistry

Top 4 by # = Berkeley, UNC, UCSD, UC Davis
Top 4 adjusted for college size = Cal Tech, Harvey Mudd, Carleton, Grinnell

FWIW Swarthmore is #16 in the "adjusted" list

VT is #29 in total, UVA is #42, UMD is #47, JMU doesn't make the list.

Of note, W&M is ranked at #15 in total, well ahead of VT , UVA, and UMD (and JMU) despite being much smaller. When adjusted for size, W&M is the highest ranked national public university.

What? There are 12 public universities ranked ahead of W&M in this ranking. No one is "adjusting for size."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are the science programs really that bad at JMU?

I hesitate to say “bad”, but JMU definitely is very weak in real science degrees like Physics or Chem. The same science degree from ODU or GMU or VCU would be much much stronger, and obviously both UVa and VT have very credible science degrees. Going. to JMU for that degree will adversely impact one’s options at college graduation. Harder to get into a good grad science program from JMU and also harder to get a job. JMU would be OK if one’s career goal were o spend one’s life being a high school science teacher.

DP. Please list your source for the above claims. Nothing I have experienced - both with my own kids who are JMU grads (one in a science major) and many others we know - come even a little bit close to the fiction you're spinning. Thanks.

I'm the PP who asked the question, not the person who answered it, but I did find this:

https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-science-schools/chemistry-rankings

USNWR top 212 schools for chemistry:

42. UVA
67. VT
119. VCU
173. GMU
173. ODU
Not making the list: JMU

That is for graduate schools. Not undergraduate.

I don't think JMU has any graduate degree programs in chemistry. It would never appear on the list you cited. A school can be very good at undergraduate chemistry (e.g. Swarthmore) and it would never appear on the list you cited. However, their undergraduate program could be better than the undergraduate programs of many on the graduate list.

A better indicator of undergrad quality could be the numbers/% of students who go on to a chemistry PhD.
https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/top-feeders-phd-programs#chemistry

Top 4 by # = Berkeley, UNC, UCSD, UC Davis
Top 4 adjusted for college size = Cal Tech, Harvey Mudd, Carleton, Grinnell

FWIW Swarthmore is #16 in the "adjusted" list

VT is #29 in total, UVA is #42, UMD is #47, JMU doesn't make the list.

Of note, W&M is ranked at #15 in total, well ahead of VT , UVA, and UMD (and JMU) despite being much smaller. When adjusted for size, W&M is the highest ranked national public university.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are the science programs really that bad at JMU?

I hesitate to say “bad”, but JMU definitely is very weak in real science degrees like Physics or Chem. The same science degree from ODU or GMU or VCU would be much much stronger, and obviously both UVa and VT have very credible science degrees. Going. to JMU for that degree will adversely impact one’s options at college graduation. Harder to get into a good grad science program from JMU and also harder to get a job. JMU would be OK if one’s career goal were o spend one’s life being a high school science teacher.

DP. Please list your source for the above claims. Nothing I have experienced - both with my own kids who are JMU grads (one in a science major) and many others we know - come even a little bit close to the fiction you're spinning. Thanks.

Science majors are doing fine with positions and not just science teachers. Don’t believe those lies.

Totally agree, just wanted the PP to list any sources that could possibly back up her absurd opinion. She couldn't - grad school rankings don't count. JMU is a fine place to earn a degree - in a wide variety of majors/fields.

I don't think the absurd OP has returned. I accidentally posted the grad school rankings, and I'm not OP. Someone did post future PhD percentage, which is one factor.

Anybody else have an opinion on how JMU ranks in the hard sciences as compared to other VA state schools?

Anonymous wrote:

I can't figure out why Virginia's top-3 (Tech, UVa, W&M) are so much more expensive for Virginians. Maybe it's made up with cheaper housing/board options but those vary so widely based on need and preference that it's truly hard to compare quickly.

When all-in easily floats up over $150,000, and realistically is closer to $175K! for a public and in-state degree (and that's IF your kid can do that engineering in four years) -- it'll really make you question what's going on.

The Virginia state legislature didn't fund higher ed well to start with and also cuts funding year after year.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are the science programs really that bad at JMU?

I hesitate to say “bad”, but JMU definitely is very weak in real science degrees like Physics or Chem. The same science degree from ODU or GMU or VCU would be much much stronger, and obviously both UVa and VT have very credible science degrees. Going. to JMU for that degree will adversely impact one’s options at college graduation. Harder to get into a good grad science program from JMU and also harder to get a job. JMU would be OK if one’s career goal were o spend one’s life being a high school science teacher.

DP. Please list your source for the above claims. Nothing I have experienced - both with my own kids who are JMU grads (one in a science major) and many others we know - come even a little bit close to the fiction you're spinning. Thanks.

Science majors are doing fine with positions and not just science teachers. Don’t believe those lies.

Totally agree, just wanted the PP to list any sources that could possibly back up her absurd opinion. She couldn't - grad school rankings don't count. JMU is a fine place to earn a degree - in a wide variety of majors/fields.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is every state, OP.

This is OP.

I completely agree with what you said; that's precisely my point. Like people in many other states, Virginians have limited good options for public colleges.

The issue is that many people don't realize it and keep saying things like, "we're so fortunate to have so many good options." The sooner Virginians dispel that delusional idea, the sooner we can expect real policy changes:

1) We need to increase enrollment for VT, W&M, and UVa.
2) We need to curb out-of-state admissions, currently at about one-third.

Nope. There are plenty of other good schools in VA, beyond these three. Deal with it.
DP

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Anonymous wrote:VA is in the top 3 states in terms of state sponsored university systems. OP is nuts.

OP here.

Did you consider the size?

Undergraduate Enrollment

W&M: 6800
UVA: 17,500
VT: 30,400
Total: 54,700

Arizona State: 65,500
Arizona: 40,400

Michigan: 33,700
MSU: 39,200

IU: 35,600
Purdue: 38,000

I won’t say VA is better than IN or AZ.

Also, if I understand correctly the soft cap for OOS admission is about 33 percent. Many OOS kids apply to UVa and W&M so the admission rate of OOS kids is lower for these two. But the admission rate for OOS is much higher at VT and JMU

No, because everyone here is only concerned about quality

Here's what's shocking to me. Yes, we have some wonderful "state" universities but our "in-state" tuition & fees (not room & board or extras) are rather eye-opening.

Compare state flagships (I'll let UVA slide in on this one) for engineering:

UVA ($26,152/yr, first 3 years)

VT ($15,478/yr, freshman-on campus, not incl housing)

vs our adjacent states:

Kentucky ($13,212/yr)

UMD ($14,535/yr)

NCSU ($9,105/yr)

Tennessee ($13,484/yr)

WVU ($11,160/yr)

** This was just a quick data search, may not be exactly apples-to-apples but I tried, and I did not see specific add-ons for engineering at UK, NCSU, or UT.

UMD is within ~$1K of VT....but the others are several thousand dollars less Tech per year. Now, you might want to argue rankings and such...and the at least ~10K+ difference over a degree program...is "worth it" for a "better" school, but all of them turn out fine engineers. And many of the top engineering schools (like UC-Berkeley, Purdue, GA Tech, Texas and Texas A&M) all have low in-state rates too.

I can't figure out why Virginia's top-3 (Tech, UVa, W&M) are so much more expensive for Virginians. Maybe it's made up with cheaper housing/board options but those vary so widely based on need and preference that it's truly hard to compare quickly.

When all-in easily floats up over $150,000, and realistically is closer to $175K! for a public and in-state degree (and that's IF your kid can do that engineering in four years) -- it'll really make you question what's going on.

Look at the acceptance rate:

VT in-state: 50%
VT OOS: 63%

JMU in-state: 71%
JMU OOS: 87%

Anonymous wrote:VA is in the top 3 states in terms of state sponsored university systems. OP is nuts.

OP here.

Did you consider the size?

Undergraduate Enrollment

W&M: 6800
UVA: 17,500
VT: 30,400
Total: 54,700

Arizona State: 65,500
Arizona: 40,400

Michigan: 33,700
MSU: 39,200

IU: 35,600
Purdue: 38,000

I won’t say VA is better than IN or AZ.

Also, if I understand correctly the soft cap for OOS admission is about 33 percent. Many OOS kids apply to UVa and W&M so the admission rate of OOS kids is lower for these two. But the admission rate for OOS is much higher at VT and JMU

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are the science programs really that bad at JMU?

I hesitate to say “bad”, but JMU definitely is very weak in real science degrees like Physics or Chem. The same science degree from ODU or GMU or VCU would be much much stronger, and obviously both UVa and VT have very credible science degrees. Going. to JMU for that degree will adversely impact one’s options at college graduation. Harder to get into a good grad science program from JMU and also harder to get a job. JMU would be OK if one’s career goal were o spend one’s life being a high school science teacher.

DP. Please list your source for the above claims. Nothing I have experienced - both with my own kids who are JMU grads (one in a science major) and many others we know - come even a little bit close to the fiction you're spinning. Thanks.

Science majors are doing fine with positions and not just science teachers. Don’t believe those lies.