Anonymous
Post 03/08/2022 11:28     Subject: US has no good options in Ukraine
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:NATO expansion isn’t the cause. It’s the effect. Countries want in NATO and the EU because Russia won’t leave them alone, militarily or economically. They don’t want to be puppet states with Russia installing thei leaders and looting their economies.


Yes, this is the tl;dr explanation for those with short attention spans. I would just say they don’t want to “go back to” being puppet states—been there done that. Freedom was hard won and they’re not giving it back.

At the same time, small countries are puppet states, always will be.
No super power has their interest in heart
The countries that have a border with Russia will have it for all eternity and it is in their interest for Russia to be happy healthy wealthy and wise.
Everybody wants to rule the world and the superpowers care about themselves and themselves and themselves
The interest of NATO is not everyone's interest
Anonymous
Post 03/08/2022 10:25     Subject: US has no good options in Ukraine
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:NATO expansion is one of the causes of the conflict. It was expanded recklessly
I do not think NATO will be able to stand up for the small member states, should the need arise


I agree with you, but we are the minority opinion.

I think the optimal approach -- that is, the approach that would have been most likely to produce a lasting peace -- would have been to leave any countries that directly border Russia out of NATO and out of any NATO discussions. These areas should have been a neutral area in which neither NATO nor Russia would place military equipment.
The US has the luxury of having two large oceans that act as natural insulation against enemy attack. This makes it more difficult, I think, for Americans to understand the concerns of countries that must rub shoulders with opposing powers.

I think this strategic agreement between the US and Ukraine -- signed on Nov 10, 2021 -- was as boneheaded move that was likely the precipitating event that led Putin to invade Ukraine:

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=us+strategic+partnership+ukraine+nov+10

It was foolish to make this sort of agreement public. If we wished to help Ukraine militarily, we should have worked at it quietly, out of public view.


That sounds great, but Putin has proven that he has no respect for international agreements Russia has made. Just read the Budapest Memorandum of 1994, where, in exchange for Ukraine giving up the nuclear weapons it inherited from the Soviet Union, Russia committed “to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine” and “to refrain from the threat or use of force” against the country. How's that working out?

If the Baltic countries of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia weren't in NATO, you better believe that Russian tanks would be there now.

And look at a map. On the border of Poland and Lithuania there's a strategic strip of land called the Suwalski Gap, which could connect Belarus to Russia's port of Kaliningrad on the Baltic Sea. Don't think Putin wants that? Why won't he try? Because it's in NATO territory. NATO is serving its purpose of preventing another World War.



Ah, so our "sh%t" doesn't smell, but Putin's does? We also have ripped up agreements and tossed them into the wastebasket when it has suited our purposes. The American Indians were on the receiving end of this.

I do not think having Ukraine armed with nukes would have been the optimal approach to achieve stability. A better approach, IMO, would be a neutral zone in which neither NATO nor Russia operate.

By your logic, the safest security arrangement for the planet would be for all countries to have nukes. I think this would be a terrifying "security" arrangement that would ultimately lead to the end of us all.
Anonymous
Post 03/08/2022 10:04     Subject: US has no good options in Ukraine
Hah. Putin the New Hitler wants Ukraine. Move north on the map to Kalingrad. That was a spoil of war for the USSR after WW2. It used to be named Konigsberg and was heavily bombed by the Allies in WW2. Nazi Germany.

Move northeast across countries and you get to St Petersburg, Russia. Near Finland.

Kalingrad needs to be cut off from Russia for transportation, air, and sea. Surrounded by NATO https://www.rferl.org/a/russian-invasion-kaliningrad-economy-sanctions/31732543.html

Take Kalingrad and give it to Poland

Anonymous
Post 03/08/2022 09:55     Subject: US has no good options in Ukraine
Anonymous wrote:Tabloids say Putin’s mistress with their kids are in Switzerland. Could it be true?

https://pagesix.com/2022/03/06/vladimir-putin-hiding-alina-kabaeva-kids-in-switzerland/amp/


They’ve lived there for years.
Anonymous
Post 03/08/2022 09:54     Subject: US has no good options in Ukraine
I think we are reaping what was sown when the US largely ignored the start of the war against Ukraine in 2014.
Anonymous
Post 03/08/2022 09:45     Subject: US has no good options in Ukraine
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:All the bickering on this thread just tells me that the Russian effort to weaken the US by encouraging political fighting among US citizens is working.


Who knew we were so easy to weaken. Or that Republicans would be easily manipulated to Russia.


Honestly, this whole thread tells me that Americans are largely ignorant of the actual facts of post-WWII Europe and Russian history. Both Republicans who accept the kind of fake news descriptions of European and Russian history and alliances and the Democrats who have so little knowledge they cannot effectively pre-but or re-but these fake news, a-historical descriptions of past events.


LOl like republicans/conservatives care. They love what Putin is doing and hope the US will become the next Russia under trump. It does not matter if you show republicans facts. They just want to believe whatever feeds their world view- democrats are bad, Putin is strong and is supported by trump. Therefore they will not support the US while there is a democrat in office. It is that simple.
Anonymous
Post 03/08/2022 09:41     Subject: US has no good options in Ukraine
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:NATO expansion is one of the causes of the conflict. It was expanded recklessly
I do not think NATO will be able to stand up for the small member states, should the need arise


I agree with you, but we are the minority opinion.

I think the optimal approach -- that is, the approach that would have been most likely to produce a lasting peace -- would have been to leave any countries that directly border Russia out of NATO and out of any NATO discussions. These areas should have been a neutral area in which neither NATO nor Russia would place military equipment.
The US has the luxury of having two large oceans that act as natural insulation against enemy attack. This makes it more difficult, I think, for Americans to understand the concerns of countries that must rub shoulders with opposing powers.

I think this strategic agreement between the US and Ukraine -- signed on Nov 10, 2021 -- was as boneheaded move that was likely the precipitating event that led Putin to invade Ukraine:

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=us+strategic+partnership+ukraine+nov+10

It was foolish to make this sort of agreement public. If we wished to help Ukraine militarily, we should have worked at it quietly, out of public view.


That sounds great, but Putin has proven that he has no respect for international agreements Russia has made. Just read the Budapest Memorandum of 1994, where, in exchange for Ukraine giving up the nuclear weapons it inherited from the Soviet Union, Russia committed “to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine” and “to refrain from the threat or use of force” against the country. How's that working out?

If the Baltic countries of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia weren't in NATO, you better believe that Russian tanks would be there now.

And look at a map. On the border of Poland and Lithuania there's a strategic strip of land called the Suwalski Gap, which could connect Belarus to Russia's port of Kaliningrad on the Baltic Sea. Don't think Putin wants that? Why won't he try? Because it's in NATO territory. NATO is serving its purpose of preventing another World War.

Anonymous
Post 03/08/2022 09:40     Subject: US has no good options in Ukraine
Anonymous wrote:Tabloids say Putin’s mistress with their kids are in Switzerland. Could it be true?

https://pagesix.com/2022/03/06/vladimir-putin-hiding-alina-kabaeva-kids-in-switzerland/amp/


I would love to see the Ukrainians (or someone on their behalf) grab the kids.
Anonymous
Post 03/08/2022 09:39     Subject: Re:US has no good options in Ukraine

Thread:
Anonymous
Post 03/08/2022 09:39     Subject: US has no good options in Ukraine
Anonymous wrote:NATO expansion isn’t the cause. It’s the effect. Countries want in NATO and the EU because Russia won’t leave them alone, militarily or economically. They don’t want to be puppet states with Russia installing thei leaders and looting their economies.


Yes, this is the tl;dr explanation for those with short attention spans. I would just say they don’t want to “go back to” being puppet states—been there done that. Freedom was hard won and they’re not giving it back.
Anonymous
Post 03/08/2022 09:37     Subject: US has no good options in Ukraine
Tabloids say Putin’s mistress with their kids are in Switzerland. Could it be true?

https://pagesix.com/2022/03/06/vladimir-putin-hiding-alina-kabaeva-kids-in-switzerland/amp/
Anonymous
Post 03/08/2022 09:23     Subject: Re:US has no good options in Ukraine
Anonymous wrote:Thank you very much for this explanation. Very helpful for understanding. The ignorant rantings on these threads are very confusing. Saying something loud & mean doesn't mean it's true.

*make it true.
Anonymous
Post 03/08/2022 09:22     Subject: US has no good options in Ukraine
NATO expansion isn’t the cause. It’s the effect. Countries want in NATO and the EU because Russia won’t leave them alone, militarily or economically. They don’t want to be puppet states with Russia installing thei leaders and looting their economies.
Anonymous
Post 03/08/2022 09:22     Subject: Re:US has no good options in Ukraine
Thank you very much for this explanation. Very helpful for understanding. The ignorant rantings on these threads are very confusing. Saying something loud & mean doesn't mean it's true.
Anonymous
Post 03/08/2022 09:18     Subject: US has no good options in Ukraine
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:All the bickering on this thread just tells me that the Russian effort to weaken the US by encouraging political fighting among US citizens is working.


Who knew we were so easy to weaken. Or that Republicans would be easily manipulated to Russia.


Honestly, this whole thread tells me that Americans are largely ignorant of the actual facts of post-WWII Europe and Russian history. Both Republicans who accept the kind of fake news descriptions of European and Russian history and alliances and the Democrats who have so little knowledge they cannot effectively pre-but or re-but these fake news, a-historical descriptions of past events.