Anonymous
Post 01/05/2016 11:06     Subject: Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
Anonymous wrote:In western nations what is the percentage of men who have premarital sex? Based on this unfortunately high percentage, I would say women are already treated as sex objects here.


People have premarital sex for many reasons. Many do so on the road to seeing whether the couple is compatible on many dimensions before marrying. Getting to know your future spouse in both carnal and non-carnal ways is a plus of Western culture IMO.

And seriously--if a couple has premarital sex, you think the woman is the one being treated as a "sex object"? The woman may (gasp) enjoy it. How on earth is the man the only one benefitting here? Why on earth do you think only the woman is being treated as a "sex object"?

The veil is about ensuring paternity via intact hymens, in keeping w/ pre-Islamic culture. It has nothing to do with protecting women from exploitation--unless you can find a verse about exploitation in the Quran, which you can't. IMO the true exploitation lies in seeing women as reproductive vessels only.
Anonymous
Post 01/05/2016 11:02     Subject: Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
Anonymous wrote:In western nations what is the percentage of men who have premarital sex? Based on this unfortunately high percentage, I would say women are already treated as sex objects here.


This is a bit disingenuous. In western and non-western nations, are these men who have premarital sex only having the sex with married women or prostitutes, or are they having this premarital sex with women? In western countries, it's mostly with women, not prostitutes or married women. Let's make sure we're throwing stones at the right people, the men and women having premarital sex, if that's what we're condemning.
Anonymous
Post 01/05/2016 10:56     Subject: Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
Anonymous wrote:In western nations what is the percentage of men who have premarital sex? Based on this unfortunately high percentage, I would say women are already treated as sex objects here.


As opposed to Muslim countries, where men will yell at you in the street or sexually harass you. I know which place I'd choose.
Anonymous
Post 01/05/2016 10:55     Subject: Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
Anonymous wrote:
Maybe the Muslim theology student was simply pleased that his wife chose to show her body to only him. And it's not uncommon for men to get excited by a woman who makes them feel special and important in any way.

In Islam gazing inevitably leads to lust (in many cases). Lust may lead to greater sins. To permit women ( or men) to show off their adornments and say no sin will ever result is just false.

Newsflash- if men and women marry, no need to have sex outside of marriage...or have sex with animals. ?


The Muslim theology student, of course, was kind of a sleaze. He loved spending time with female students, but for his own wife, I guess he wanted someone "pure." Fair enough.

Of course, pp, your description of Islam sounds consistent to what I have seen in practice. Narrow, legalistic, and overly onerous. To cover your entire body so that you can save some poor man from the risk of lust- I guess if you feel this is for the glory of God, good for you.
Anonymous
Post 01/05/2016 10:37     Subject: Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
In western nations what is the percentage of men who have premarital sex? Based on this unfortunately high percentage, I would say women are already treated as sex objects here.
Anonymous
Post 01/05/2016 10:32     Subject: Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
Anonymous wrote:
I'm 22:36 again. You assume far too much. If women wear hijab to avoid the glances or stares of men, it doesn't necessarily mean they are being cowed by men. Many men will notice a pretty woman. Are you denying this or are you saying it is only prevalent in Muslim cultures? A few will stare. Evenso, most don't to intimidate or harass. They simply notice. I'm sure you have male relatives and friends. Ask them if their intent when they notice a pretty woman is for the purposes of intimidating or harassing. Ask most women who catch a man noticing them if they felt intimidated or harassed by the glance or stare. Most women don't feel that is a man's intent and most men don't intend that either.

Practicing Muslim women who choose to wear hijab want to prevent ANY glances or stares because in Islam it is a sin for men to notice women's beauty. Period. Hair is an adornment (well, except for Leila Ahmed, maybe lol). It is colored, straightened, curled, etc…and then shown off by women to men.

Why are you bent upon trying to prove Muslim women would never desire to wear hijab? Is it because it angers you so much that it is a mandate in some Muslim countries? Is it because in your own mind, it is considered perfectly natural and healthy for women to show their attractiveness to men? Or is it because you can not imagine women exercising such a level of restraint?


I realize you said you haven't followed this thread. But we have disputed the verse in question as a justification for hijab. Boiled down, the verse says a woman should not show her things of beauty (adornment is not the right translation for zeinat), therefore, she should draw material over her chest. The whole point of the verse was to get women to cover up their breasts, which was not a universal practice in pre-Islamic Arabia. If the Quran had meant cover up your hair it would have said that. In the context, things of beauty here clearly means breasts, not hair or anything else.

As for it being a sin in Islam to notice a women's beauty, I am not seeing where that is in the Quran. It does say to lower one's gaze, which is, guess what?, exactly why it also says women should cover their breasts. This sounds more to me as an anti-ogling command, which these days, as PPs have pointed out, is followed in the breach in many Muslim countries where the more women cover the more they are subject to harassment.
Anonymous
Post 01/05/2016 10:31     Subject: Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
I'm 22:36 again. You assume far too much. If women wear hijab to avoid the glances or stares of men, it doesn't necessarily mean they are being cowed by men. Many men will notice a pretty woman. Are you denying this or are you saying it is only prevalent in Muslim cultures? A few will stare. Evenso, most don't to intimidate or harass. They simply notice. I'm sure you have male relatives and friends. Ask them if their intent when they notice a pretty woman is for the purposes of intimidating or harassing. Ask most women who catch a man noticing them if they felt intimidated or harassed by the glance or stare. Most women don't feel that is a man's intent and most men don't intend that either.

Practicing Muslim women who choose to wear hijab want to prevent ANY glances or stares because in Islam it is a sin for men to notice women's beauty. Period. Hair is an adornment (well, except for Leila Ahmed, maybe lol). It is colored, straightened, curled, etc…and then shown off by women to men.

Why are you bent upon trying to prove Muslim women would never desire to wear hijab? Is it because it angers you so much that it is a mandate in some Muslim countries? Is it because in your own mind, it is considered perfectly natural and healthy for women to show their attractiveness to men? Or is it because you can not imagine women exercising such a level of restraint?


It is a sin to notice women's beauty? That is completely f-ed up, and why is the onus on women to cover themselves regardless? The woman isn't sinning.

If this is the hijab's goal, then it is a complete failure. I say this as someone who spent time in Egypt, a Muslim country where at least 80% of women are wearing hijab. Men are constantly leering, yelling, and harassing women on the street no matter what they are wearing. Do you know why? Because they have been absolved of any responsibility for their own behavior by religious authorities who have taught them that it is the woman's fault that they are "noticing" her beauty. Just really, completely f-ed up and not the way things used to be in that country.

Newsflash pp, men will have sex with animals or inanimate objects if nothing else is available. A man will "notice" a woman in a hijab, niqab, whatever, as long as she is walking and he has eyes. The MEN need to realize that women are not sexual objects, they are people.

Notice in Christian thinking the sin is not "noticing beauty." The sin is lust, which is different, and places the onus on the person doing the lusting. Plus, it is pretty easy to not "lust" if you are looking at women and noticing a fellow human being instead of a sexual object. If a man is taught that a woman is a sexual object and fair game just for being guilty of being "beautiful" it is trouble.

I once asked a Muslim theology student about the hijab and his thoughts on it. He described to me, with great enthusiasm, how exciting it was to him that his wife would be "his" alone and that no other man would get to look at her hair or her "beauty." He was practically drooling as he said it. It's just a really bizarre way of thinking, quite frankly.

And why would God want to hide beauty? If you believe in God, wouldn't you realize that God has placed beauty everywhere and does not want to "hide" it? Why would you automatically sexualize a woman's beauty or her hair? A woman can dress modestly and beautifully without the legalism of covering every strand of hair.

Just a fail on every level.


Maybe the Muslim theology student was simply pleased that his wife chose to show her body to only him. And it's not uncommon for men to get excited by a woman who makes them feel special and important in any way.

In Islam gazing inevitably leads to lust (in many cases). Lust may lead to greater sins. To permit women ( or men) to show off their adornments and say no sin will ever result is just false.

Newsflash- if men and women marry, no need to have sex outside of marriage...or have sex with animals. ?
Anonymous
Post 01/05/2016 10:30     Subject: Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
Anonymous wrote:

You needn't resort to snark to get your point across just because you don't like that Muslim women veil.

Why do men commit more crimes than women in nearly every society? Why are insurance rates generally higher for men? Are you going to sit there and now deny biochemical differences between men and women? In the western mindset, the quest to prove linear equality between men and women may cause women to insist they are identical to men in every way, but from the Islamic perspective this is an erroneous presumption. Muslim women do not need to justify veiling under western ideology. The requirement to "lower ones gaze" is there in the Quran for both men and women, but men are more likely to have a harder time controlling themselves from the sin of gazing.

If you don't agree, fine. It's simply a different perspective.





It's funny- the only time in my life where I felt objectified and pressured about my appearance was when I lived in a Muslim country.

Also, why the false dichotomy? No one in this thread said men and women are the same. People defending Islam (or their version of it) always present these false choices. Saying men and women deserve equality in their clothing choices does not mean we are saying they are the same. Nor does a woman dressing in non-hijab mean endorsing extremely revealing clothing. There is a big difference between booty shorts and a tasteful knee-length skirt, but from what I can tell, some of the people defending veiling think they are the same, and that Western women are constantly objectified and sexualized. I would say it is the opposite, and that women in Muslim countries are the ones facing more of this pressure, because at this point, even their hair, of all things, has become sexualized.
Anonymous
Post 01/05/2016 10:17     Subject: Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
I'm 22:36 again. You assume far too much. If women wear hijab to avoid the glances or stares of men, it doesn't necessarily mean they are being cowed by men. Many men will notice a pretty woman. Are you denying this or are you saying it is only prevalent in Muslim cultures? A few will stare. Evenso, most don't to intimidate or harass. They simply notice. I'm sure you have male relatives and friends. Ask them if their intent when they notice a pretty woman is for the purposes of intimidating or harassing. Ask most women who catch a man noticing them if they felt intimidated or harassed by the glance or stare. Most women don't feel that is a man's intent and most men don't intend that either.

Practicing Muslim women who choose to wear hijab want to prevent ANY glances or stares because in Islam it is a sin for men to notice women's beauty. Period. Hair is an adornment (well, except for Leila Ahmed, maybe lol). It is colored, straightened, curled, etc…and then shown off by women to men.

Why are you bent upon trying to prove Muslim women would never desire to wear hijab? Is it because it angers you so much that it is a mandate in some Muslim countries? Is it because in your own mind, it is considered perfectly natural and healthy for women to show their attractiveness to men? Or is it because you can not imagine women exercising such a level of restraint?


You're talking in circles, thus trapping yourself.

Again, b/c men can't help themselves, women have to hide.

You can't see that beyond your veil?


You needn't resort to snark to get your point across just because you don't like that Muslim women veil.

Why do men commit more crimes than women in nearly every society? Why are insurance rates generally higher for men? Are you going to sit there and now deny biochemical differences between men and women? In the western mindset, the quest to prove linear equality between men and women may cause women to insist they are identical to men in every way, but from the Islamic perspective this is an erroneous presumption. Muslim women do not need to justify veiling under western ideology. The requirement to "lower ones gaze" is there in the Quran for both men and women, but men are more likely to have a harder time controlling themselves from the sin of gazing.

If you don't agree, fine. It's simply a different perspective.



Anonymous
Post 01/05/2016 09:12     Subject: Re:Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
Anonymous wrote:Reputable sources hedge their bets because the number simply isn't known. Here is a note by the US Embassy in iraq:

"The size of the Muslim-American population has proved difficult to measure because the U.S. Census does not track religious affiliation. Estimates vary widely from 2 million to 7 million."

http://iraq.usembassy.gov/resources/information/current/american/statistical.html

There appears to be a better handle on the number of Islamic centers--perhaps because they register with the IRS?

"A 2010 Pew report on mosque-building controversies shows that the number of mosques in the United States has increased from 1,209 to 1,825 in the decade since the 2001 report."

http://www.cfr.org/united-states/muslims-united-states/p25927

Let us suppose there are now 2,000 mosques in the US with an average of 1500 members each. I know some of these, like some churches, are tiny, so 1,500 may be generous. That would get you to 3 million. But many Muslims in the US aren't particularly religious and may not bother with membership. So maybe 4 million?


If they aren't religious then they are culturally Muslim but I wonder if they're included in the denominator of percentages like Pew's numbers. I don't have an answer.
Anonymous
Post 01/05/2016 08:14     Subject: Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
Anonymous wrote:
I'm 22:36 again. You assume far too much. If women wear hijab to avoid the glances or stares of men, it doesn't necessarily mean they are being cowed by men. Many men will notice a pretty woman. Are you denying this or are you saying it is only prevalent in Muslim cultures? A few will stare. Evenso, most don't to intimidate or harass. They simply notice. I'm sure you have male relatives and friends. Ask them if their intent when they notice a pretty woman is for the purposes of intimidating or harassing. Ask most women who catch a man noticing them if they felt intimidated or harassed by the glance or stare. Most women don't feel that is a man's intent and most men don't intend that either.

Practicing Muslim women who choose to wear hijab want to prevent ANY glances or stares because in Islam it is a sin for men to notice women's beauty. Period. Hair is an adornment (well, except for Leila Ahmed, maybe lol). It is colored, straightened, curled, etc…and then shown off by women to men.

Why are you bent upon trying to prove Muslim women would never desire to wear hijab? Is it because it angers you so much that it is a mandate in some Muslim countries? Is it because in your own mind, it is considered perfectly natural and healthy for women to show their attractiveness to men? Or is it because you can not imagine women exercising such a level of restraint?


It is a sin to notice women's beauty? That is completely f-ed up, and why is the onus on women to cover themselves regardless? The woman isn't sinning.

If this is the hijab's goal, then it is a complete failure. I say this as someone who spent time in Egypt, a Muslim country where at least 80% of women are wearing hijab. Men are constantly leering, yelling, and harassing women on the street no matter what they are wearing. Do you know why? Because they have been absolved of any responsibility for their own behavior by religious authorities who have taught them that it is the woman's fault that they are "noticing" her beauty. Just really, completely f-ed up and not the way things used to be in that country.

Newsflash pp, men will have sex with animals or inanimate objects if nothing else is available. A man will "notice" a woman in a hijab, niqab, whatever, as long as she is walking and he has eyes. The MEN need to realize that women are not sexual objects, they are people.

Notice in Christian thinking the sin is not "noticing beauty." The sin is lust, which is different, and places the onus on the person doing the lusting. Plus, it is pretty easy to not "lust" if you are looking at women and noticing a fellow human being instead of a sexual object. If a man is taught that a woman is a sexual object and fair game just for being guilty of being "beautiful" it is trouble.

I once asked a Muslim theology student about the hijab and his thoughts on it. He described to me, with great enthusiasm, how exciting it was to him that his wife would be "his" alone and that no other man would get to look at her hair or her "beauty." He was practically drooling as he said it. It's just a really bizarre way of thinking, quite frankly.

And why would God want to hide beauty? If you believe in God, wouldn't you realize that God has placed beauty everywhere and does not want to "hide" it? Why would you automatically sexualize a woman's beauty or her hair? A woman can dress modestly and beautifully without the legalism of covering every strand of hair.

Just a fail on every level.
Anonymous
Post 01/05/2016 05:52     Subject: Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
Anonymous wrote:
I'm 22:36 again. You assume far too much. If women wear hijab to avoid the glances or stares of men, it doesn't necessarily mean they are being cowed by men. Many men will notice a pretty woman. Are you denying this or are you saying it is only prevalent in Muslim cultures? A few will stare. Evenso, most don't to intimidate or harass. They simply notice. I'm sure you have male relatives and friends. Ask them if their intent when they notice a pretty woman is for the purposes of intimidating or harassing. Ask most women who catch a man noticing them if they felt intimidated or harassed by the glance or stare. Most women don't feel that is a man's intent and most men don't intend that either.

Practicing Muslim women who choose to wear hijab want to prevent ANY glances or stares because in Islam it is a sin for men to notice women's beauty. Period. Hair is an adornment (well, except for Leila Ahmed, maybe lol). It is colored, straightened, curled, etc…and then shown off by women to men.

Why are you bent upon trying to prove Muslim women would never desire to wear hijab? Is it because it angers you so much that it is a mandate in some Muslim countries? Is it because in your own mind, it is considered perfectly natural and healthy for women to show their attractiveness to men? Or is it because you can not imagine women exercising such a level of restraint?


You're talking in circles, thus trapping yourself.

Again, b/c men can't help themselves, women have to hide.

You can't see that beyond your veil?
Anonymous
Post 01/05/2016 01:41     Subject: Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam

I'm 22:36 again. You assume far too much. If women wear hijab to avoid the glances or stares of men, it doesn't necessarily mean they are being cowed by men. Many men will notice a pretty woman. Are you denying this or are you saying it is only prevalent in Muslim cultures? A few will stare. Evenso, most don't to intimidate or harass. They simply notice. I'm sure you have male relatives and friends. Ask them if their intent when they notice a pretty woman is for the purposes of intimidating or harassing. Ask most women who catch a man noticing them if they felt intimidated or harassed by the glance or stare. Most women don't feel that is a man's intent and most men don't intend that either.

Practicing Muslim women who choose to wear hijab want to prevent ANY glances or stares because in Islam it is a sin for men to notice women's beauty. Period. Hair is an adornment (well, except for Leila Ahmed, maybe lol). It is colored, straightened, curled, etc…and then shown off by women to men.

Why are you bent upon trying to prove Muslim women would never desire to wear hijab? Is it because it angers you so much that it is a mandate in some Muslim countries? Is it because in your own mind, it is considered perfectly natural and healthy for women to show their attractiveness to men? Or is it because you can not imagine women exercising such a level of restraint?
Anonymous
Post 01/05/2016 00:44     Subject: Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
Anonymous wrote:I am not following everything in this thread, a lot of arguing for the sake of arguing...

But even if that statistic were true about hijab, it does not mean the other women prefer not to wear hijab.

I used to wear hijab but gave it up after 9/11 out of fear for my safety. In a Muslim country, I happily put it back on.

This is really absurd. It's like assuming a practicing Muslim would like to wear shorts on a warm day simply because thats what non Muslims do. Many Muslim women would still not wear shorts, because of their desire to not show their body that way. Hair is covered for the same reason. Their intention is to avoid the glances or stares by men.

Muslims inthis country are nervous to cover up, because the climate here is hostile. The length of this thread is further evidence that many people have a hard time simply respecting a practicing Muslim woman's choice to cover.


The reasons for wearing a hijab is being discussed in this thread. You have given yours above in bold. It is your choice, but it does not speak well for Muslim men or perhaps men more generally. I think what you see on this thread is posters who think your reason amounts to women trying to avoid being cowed by men instead of addressing the issue of male harassment of women. And wearing the hijab to avoid harassment seems to many posters a very high price to pay in terms of restriction of movement and opportunities (eg to engage in sports) it imposes on women.
Anonymous
Post 01/04/2016 22:36     Subject: Muslim women speak out against the hijab as an element of political Islam
I am not following everything in this thread, a lot of arguing for the sake of arguing...

But even if that statistic were true about hijab, it does not mean the other women prefer not to wear hijab.

I used to wear hijab but gave it up after 9/11 out of fear for my safety. In a Muslim country, I happily put it back on.

This is really absurd. It's like assuming a practicing Muslim would like to wear shorts on a warm day simply because thats what non Muslims do. Many Muslim women would still not wear shorts, because of their desire to not show their body that way. Hair is covered for the same reason. Their intention is to avoid the glances or stares by men.

Muslims inthis country are nervous to cover up, because the climate here is hostile. The length of this thread is further evidence that many people have a hard time simply respecting a practicing Muslim woman's choice to cover.