Anonymous
Post 06/18/2015 14:04     Subject: Eight People Shot in Black Church in Charleston, South Carolina
Anonymous wrote: Dylann Roof, a 21-year-old from Eastover, S.C., was arrested during a traffic stop in Shelby, N.C., just after 11 a.m. and taken into custody.

GIMMIE MY $5!!!!

If a non-white man was suspected of flicking a rubber band at a cashier in McDonald's 10 officers would have pulled him over and emptied their clips in his ass lol. Unbelievable.



Hey there Einstein, you forgot to include this part: "Charleston Police Chief Greg Mullen said authorities were given a tip by a citizen, which lead to the capture. The suspect was in the vehicle and was cooperative, he said. Mullen also said officials believe Roof acted alone."
Anonymous
Post 06/18/2015 14:04     Subject: Re:Eight People Shot in Black Church in Charleston, South Carolina
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:

I think conflating mass murders and serial killers is a category error. Dahmer was obviously loopy; people who kill abortion providers are rational given their premises. I think this gets at the crazy vs. evil distinction, which in real life is, of course, to some extent muddled in all cases.


I agree with this. I have a very hard time handing mental illness as an excuse to mass murders. Do you need to have some crazy in you to do that, sure. Should that be an excuse for your crime, in my opinion, no.

Serial Killers, different story. Should be locked up forever, but no doubt that they have a compulsion and they cannot be anything but a predator.


For me the question is, if we could address the mental illness... can we prevent mass murders? In this sense, we need to see how mental illness plays in these sort of situations, as a prevention, not an excuse.


While I strongly disagree with those who are arguing that whites in general use "mental illness" as an excuse for murders committed by other whites as compared to how they discuss black murderers, it is fair to say that there is no reason yet to assume this guy was mentally ill. He did something evil, for reasons he apparently stated while doing so, and there is no evidence of meaningful delusions, etc. Some seems to believe that a person "has to be" crazy to do something like this; I disagree entirely. Consciously-chosen evil is relatively uncommon, but it does exist, and it exists here I believe.





I agree. Depends on your definition of "crazy" though. People are calling this man a sociopath. Sociopaths do not fit my definition of "crazy" because they know exactly what they are doing. But that is an unlikely diagnosis because sociopaths do not tend to care very much about a "cause" like killing people for racist reasons and they do not tend to commit crimes for which they will definitely get caught. This man left a witness. He did this for a reason which made sense to him and he wanted notoriety for it. This is clearly a hate crime.

Now... whether or not he was having a psychotic break and operating under a set of delusions remains to be seen and we should not make those assumptions. Plenty of so-called "sane" people have committed hate crimes who believed they were doing the right thing.



"Hate crime" is a term of political advocacy, and one that is used in intellectually dishonest ways most of the time. A better word for this is "terrorism," given the context---that at least has a theoretically objective definition as violence against innocents for political reasons---although all such fights over words are laden with implicit political assumptions that shed more heat than light.




Point taken but I am comfortable with "hate crime" in this case. Unfortunately, many Americans believe that the word "terrorist" is synonymous with "Muslim" and that further complicates the issue. And once again, we are only splitting hairs when we really intend to discuss the fact that this was a racist crime whether or not the guy was mentally ill.
Anonymous
Post 06/18/2015 14:01     Subject: Eight People Shot in Black Church in Charleston, South Carolina
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:And now I'm crying: http://www.buzzfeed.com/jessicasimeone/these-are-the-victims-of-the-charleston-church-shooting?bffb&utm_term=4ldqpgp#.ngl7O62gx7


Oh damn! now i am crying! Thanks for sharing ...


Couldn't get through the first victim. Oh that picture with her son (?) in his cap and gown... I noped out, I'm a whimp.


At least you looked and empathized; I just can't. Those poor people! Their families! This is just horrible. And while at a bible study? Again, I can't think of a legal punishment fitting to how horribly awful this racially prejudiced attack was.
Anonymous
Post 06/18/2015 13:56     Subject: Re:Eight People Shot in Black Church in Charleston, South Carolina
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:

I think conflating mass murders and serial killers is a category error. Dahmer was obviously loopy; people who kill abortion providers are rational given their premises. I think this gets at the crazy vs. evil distinction, which in real life is, of course, to some extent muddled in all cases.


I agree with this. I have a very hard time handing mental illness as an excuse to mass murders. Do you need to have some crazy in you to do that, sure. Should that be an excuse for your crime, in my opinion, no.

Serial Killers, different story. Should be locked up forever, but no doubt that they have a compulsion and they cannot be anything but a predator.


For me the question is, if we could address the mental illness... can we prevent mass murders? In this sense, we need to see how mental illness plays in these sort of situations, as a prevention, not an excuse.


While I strongly disagree with those who are arguing that whites in general use "mental illness" as an excuse for murders committed by other whites as compared to how they discuss black murderers, it is fair to say that there is no reason yet to assume this guy was mentally ill. He did something evil, for reasons he apparently stated while doing so, and there is no evidence of meaningful delusions, etc. Some seems to believe that a person "has to be" crazy to do something like this; I disagree entirely. Consciously-chosen evil is relatively uncommon, but it does exist, and it exists here I believe.





I agree. Depends on your definition of "crazy" though. People are calling this man a sociopath. Sociopaths do not fit my definition of "crazy" because they know exactly what they are doing. But that is an unlikely diagnosis because sociopaths do not tend to care very much about a "cause" like killing people for racist reasons and they do not tend to commit crimes for which they will definitely get caught. This man left a witness. He did this for a reason which made sense to him and he wanted notoriety for it. This is clearly a hate crime.

Now... whether or not he was having a psychotic break and operating under a set of delusions remains to be seen and we should not make those assumptions. Plenty of so-called "sane" people have committed hate crimes who believed they were doing the right thing.



"Hate crime" is a term of political advocacy, and one that is used in intellectually dishonest ways most of the time. A better word for this is "terrorism," given the context---that at least has a theoretically objective definition as violence against innocents for political reasons---although all such fights over words are laden with implicit political assumptions that shed more heat than light.
Anonymous
Post 06/18/2015 13:55     Subject: Eight People Shot in Black Church in Charleston, South Carolina
Anonymous wrote:And now I'm crying: http://www.buzzfeed.com/jessicasimeone/these-are-the-victims-of-the-charleston-church-shooting?bffb&utm_term=4ldqpgp#.ngl7O62gx7


Me too.
Anonymous
Post 06/18/2015 13:51     Subject: Re:Eight People Shot in Black Church in Charleston, South Carolina
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:

I think conflating mass murders and serial killers is a category error. Dahmer was obviously loopy; people who kill abortion providers are rational given their premises. I think this gets at the crazy vs. evil distinction, which in real life is, of course, to some extent muddled in all cases.


I agree with this. I have a very hard time handing mental illness as an excuse to mass murders. Do you need to have some crazy in you to do that, sure. Should that be an excuse for your crime, in my opinion, no.

Serial Killers, different story. Should be locked up forever, but no doubt that they have a compulsion and they cannot be anything but a predator.


For me the question is, if we could address the mental illness... can we prevent mass murders? In this sense, we need to see how mental illness plays in these sort of situations, as a prevention, not an excuse.


While I strongly disagree with those who are arguing that whites in general use "mental illness" as an excuse for murders committed by other whites as compared to how they discuss black murderers, it is fair to say that there is no reason yet to assume this guy was mentally ill. He did something evil, for reasons he apparently stated while doing so, and there is no evidence of meaningful delusions, etc. Some seems to believe that a person "has to be" crazy to do something like this; I disagree entirely. Consciously-chosen evil is relatively uncommon, but it does exist, and it exists here I believe.





I agree. Depends on your definition of "crazy" though. People are calling this man a sociopath. Sociopaths do not fit my definition of "crazy" because they know exactly what they are doing. But that is an unlikely diagnosis because sociopaths do not tend to care very much about a "cause" like killing people for racist reasons and they do not tend to commit crimes for which they will definitely get caught. This man left a witness. He did this for a reason which made sense to him and he wanted notoriety for it. This is clearly a hate crime.

Now... whether or not he was having a psychotic break and operating under a set of delusions remains to be seen and we should not make those assumptions. Plenty of so-called "sane" people have committed hate crimes who believed they were doing the right thing.

Anonymous
Post 06/18/2015 13:50     Subject: Eight People Shot in Black Church in Charleston, South Carolina
Anonymous wrote:
jsteele wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Called it! It wasn't a flag in his room. It was his license plate. https://twitter.com/adamweinstein/status/611556209737506816


Yep, I was just coming to post the same thing. Here is a larger version of the plate:

http://www.lionheart-designs.com/inventory/confederatestates/License%20Plates/Confederate%20States%203%20Flags%20license%20plate.JPG


These are fairly common in the South. Not an indication of anything. You should really visit BEFORE you judge.


Look how often DCUM dismisses the entire Midwest with the term "fly-over country?" Or how BOTH major parties are childishly dismissed as "clown car?" Anyone disagreeing is dismissed as a "Tea-bagger" (suggestive of a vulgar sex act) or labeled a "wing nut."

That's the current quality (or lack of quality) that DCUM has become.

Back on topic: glad he appears to be off the street and headed to a fair trial. If guilty, I can't imagine a legal punishment fitting for such a heinous and vile crime.
Anonymous
Post 06/18/2015 13:45     Subject: Eight People Shot in Black Church in Charleston, South Carolina
Anonymous wrote:Well in any case I'm eagerly awaiting my other $5 cause I KNOW this dude ain't gonna be called out as a thug or a criminal (despite being recently arrested on drug charges) and there's a 99.999999% probability that the meat of the discussion around this dude will be his psyche - not his race.


OK, he is a thug and a criminal and a racist (see, extra!) and you are a whiner.
Anonymous
Post 06/18/2015 13:43     Subject: Eight People Shot in Black Church in Charleston, South Carolina
There is a Mother Emmanuel Hope Fund that will have a website tomorrow, and for now is accepting checks in the mail, or donations at any Wells Fargo branch.

http://time.com/3926610/charleston-shooting-victims-help/
Anonymous
Post 06/18/2015 13:42     Subject: Eight People Shot in Black Church in Charleston, South Carolina
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:And now I'm crying: http://www.buzzfeed.com/jessicasimeone/these-are-the-victims-of-the-charleston-church-shooting?bffb&utm_term=4ldqpgp#.ngl7O62gx7


Oh damn! now i am crying! Thanks for sharing ...


Couldn't get through the first victim. Oh that picture with her son (?) in his cap and gown... I noped out, I'm a whimp.
Anonymous
Post 06/18/2015 13:41     Subject: Re:Eight People Shot in Black Church in Charleston, South Carolina
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:

I think conflating mass murders and serial killers is a category error. Dahmer was obviously loopy; people who kill abortion providers are rational given their premises. I think this gets at the crazy vs. evil distinction, which in real life is, of course, to some extent muddled in all cases.


I agree with this. I have a very hard time handing mental illness as an excuse to mass murders. Do you need to have some crazy in you to do that, sure. Should that be an excuse for your crime, in my opinion, no.

Serial Killers, different story. Should be locked up forever, but no doubt that they have a compulsion and they cannot be anything but a predator.


For me the question is, if we could address the mental illness... can we prevent mass murders? In this sense, we need to see how mental illness plays in these sort of situations, as a prevention, not an excuse.


Sure and we can work on that. However when people are in raw bitter pain over hearing 25 children have been killed or 9 church goers or people out for a nice night at the movies, no one really wants to hear about this guys mental problems. I think, like the NRA debate, it should take place at a different time, when it might actually be productive and not turn into an argument.
Anonymous
Post 06/18/2015 13:39     Subject: Re:Eight People Shot in Black Church in Charleston, South Carolina
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:

I think conflating mass murders and serial killers is a category error. Dahmer was obviously loopy; people who kill abortion providers are rational given their premises. I think this gets at the crazy vs. evil distinction, which in real life is, of course, to some extent muddled in all cases.


I agree with this. I have a very hard time handing mental illness as an excuse to mass murders. Do you need to have some crazy in you to do that, sure. Should that be an excuse for your crime, in my opinion, no.

Serial Killers, different story. Should be locked up forever, but no doubt that they have a compulsion and they cannot be anything but a predator.


For me the question is, if we could address the mental illness... can we prevent mass murders? In this sense, we need to see how mental illness plays in these sort of situations, as a prevention, not an excuse.


While I strongly disagree with those who are arguing that whites in general use "mental illness" as an excuse for murders committed by other whites as compared to how they discuss black murderers, it is fair to say that there is no reason yet to assume this guy was mentally ill. He did something evil, for reasons he apparently stated while doing so, and there is no evidence of meaningful delusions, etc. Some seems to believe that a person "has to be" crazy to do something like this; I disagree entirely. Consciously-chosen evil is relatively uncommon, but it does exist, and it exists here I believe.

Anonymous
Post 06/18/2015 13:38     Subject: Eight People Shot in Black Church in Charleston, South Carolina
Anonymous wrote:Well in any case I'm eagerly awaiting my other $5 cause I KNOW this dude ain't gonna be called out as a thug or a criminal (despite being recently arrested on drug charges) and there's a 99.999999% probability that the meat of the discussion around this dude will be his psyche - not his race.


He is a criminal, no doubt. This is a hate crime, already being called that.

Maybe just maybe the tide is changing, try not to be such a cynic.
Anonymous
Post 06/18/2015 13:37     Subject: Eight People Shot in Black Church in Charleston, South Carolina
Anonymous wrote:And now I'm crying: http://www.buzzfeed.com/jessicasimeone/these-are-the-victims-of-the-charleston-church-shooting?bffb&utm_term=4ldqpgp#.ngl7O62gx7


Oh damn! now i am crying! Thanks for sharing ...
Anonymous
Post 06/18/2015 13:34     Subject: Re:Eight People Shot in Black Church in Charleston, South Carolina
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:

I think conflating mass murders and serial killers is a category error. Dahmer was obviously loopy; people who kill abortion providers are rational given their premises. I think this gets at the crazy vs. evil distinction, which in real life is, of course, to some extent muddled in all cases.


I agree with this. I have a very hard time handing mental illness as an excuse to mass murders. Do you need to have some crazy in you to do that, sure. Should that be an excuse for your crime, in my opinion, no.

Serial Killers, different story. Should be locked up forever, but no doubt that they have a compulsion and they cannot be anything but a predator.


For me the question is, if we could address the mental illness... can we prevent mass murders? In this sense, we need to see how mental illness plays in these sort of situations, as a prevention, not an excuse.