Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But the difference is-- the moderator himself became exasperated with you. You predominantly argue for the sake of arguing; I argued to clarify misinterpretations you made about my religion. Yes, I got a few shots in but it's not easy to be patient with someone who has an agenda and is as combative as you.

The moderator doesn't get to call the outcome of a discussion. His emotions - exasperation or otherwise - count for nothing as far as the argument itself is concerned. He ain't the higher power, he isn't salaf so stop presenting his views like he's an uncriticizable companion or something.

+1.

Yes, he does get to call the outcome of the discussion. Read this in FAQ:

Don't all users have a right to free expression and should be able to post anything they like? Isn't it censorship when a Site Administrator interferes with that right?
No and No. We allow great leeway in what users are allowed to say, but Site Administrators reserve the right to delete and/or modify any message at any time for any reason. DCUM is privately owned and operated and, as such, First Amendment rights do not apply (though they are given great reverence).

Did he "delete or modify" the posts of anybody here? No. You don't seem to understand that mere differences of opinion are not cause for deletion.

Maybe you should go whine to the moderator now, though, and see if you can get him to delete any posts that challenge your very special definition of "equality." Come back here and let us know how that worked out.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But the difference is-- the moderator himself became exasperated with you. You predominantly argue for the sake of arguing; I argued to clarify misinterpretations you made about my religion. Yes, I got a few shots in but it's not easy to be patient with someone who has an agenda and is as combative as you.

The moderator doesn't get to call the outcome of a discussion. His emotions - exasperation or otherwise - count for nothing as far as the argument itself is concerned. He ain't the higher power, he isn't salaf so stop presenting his views like he's an uncriticizable companion or something.

+1.

Yes, he does get to call the outcome of the discussion. Read this in FAQ:

Don't all users have a right to free expression and should be able to post anything they like? Isn't it censorship when a Site Administrator interferes with that right?
No and No. We allow great leeway in what users are allowed to say, but Site Administrators reserve the right to delete and/or modify any message at any time for any reason. DCUM is privately owned and operated and, as such, First Amendment rights do not apply (though they are given great reverence).

Did he "delete or modify" the posts of anybody here? No. You don't seem to understand that mere differences of opinion are not cause for deletion.

Maybe you should go whine to the moderator now, though, and see if you can get him to delete any posts that challenge your very special definition of "equality." Come back here and let us know how that worked out.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But the difference is-- the moderator himself became exasperated with you. You predominantly argue for the sake of arguing; I argued to clarify misinterpretations you made about my religion. Yes, I got a few shots in but it's not easy to be patient with someone who has an agenda and is as combative as you.

The moderator doesn't get to call the outcome of a discussion. His emotions - exasperation or otherwise - count for nothing as far as the argument itself is concerned. He ain't the higher power, he isn't salaf so stop presenting his views like he's an uncriticizable companion or something.

+1.

Yes, he does get to call the outcome of the discussion. Read this in FAQ:

Don't all users have a right to free expression and should be able to post anything they like? Isn't it censorship when a Site Administrator interferes with that right?
No and No. We allow great leeway in what users are allowed to say, but Site Administrators reserve the right to delete and/or modify any message at any time for any reason. DCUM is privately owned and operated and, as such, First Amendment rights do not apply (though they are given great reverence).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You remind me of Humpty-Dumpty who said the word means whatever he wants it to mean. Equality doesn't mean whatever you need it to mean to work with your argument. That women and men are equal "in the eyes of Allah" doesn't mean they have equality.

Here is the gist of your argument: the set of rights and responsibilities granted to men ankd women under Shariah is complementary and they work together.

That's cool. That doesn't mean they are "equal". Your argument would be better served if you just said that the roles of men and women in Islam are different from the Western views, and that works for Muslims. Rather than argue that they are "equal", knowing full well that this isn't true, and that the West should agree with this interpretation. You're fighting a losing battle.

Thank you. I started to write exactly this: an effective argument would go something along the lines of, "Women and men have different roles in Islam than in the West, and Islamic laws reflect this. Muslims appreciate these rules, which create the Muslim society that they want to live in."

By contrast, when you simply say, "Women are treated equally under Islam," you're deliberately using the word "equally" in a way that you know is understood very differently by your listeners. That's why the accusations of deception. That's what provoked the 20 pages detailing the actual laws, which you complain so much about.

Where the hell am I? Is this DC? I feel like I'm talking to a bunch of rednecks living in the back woods of Alabama. I am not Muslima, btw.

As a Muslim woman who lived in a Muslim country and who was very active in my local mosques, I have an understanding of how Muslim women think. You guys are ridiculous. You would be hard pressed to find Muslim women who would describe their lives as compared to men as anything other than just AND equal. In their eyes, justice = equality. In their eyes, separate rights does not necessarily mean inequality. A Muslim woman's idea of equality is having rights of equal value as compared to rights afforded to men. Separate rights may still have equal value.

Muslima explained this though she used the term equality. You guys knew full well what she was saying. You just enjoy bashing her because she was bold and proud to identify herself on an otherwise anonymous forum as a Muslim. This is bullying and you know it. Leave her alone and get off this rabid online bashing of a Muslim woman.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But the difference is-- the moderator himself became exasperated with you. You predominantly argue for the sake of arguing; I argued to clarify misinterpretations you made about my religion. Yes, I got a few shots in but it's not easy to be patient with someone who has an agenda and is as combative as you.

The moderator doesn't get to call the outcome of a discussion. His emotions - exasperation or otherwise - count for nothing as far as the argument itself is concerned. He ain't the higher power, he isn't salaf so stop presenting his views like he's an uncriticizable companion or something.

+1.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You remind me of Humpty-Dumpty who said the word means whatever he wants it to mean. Equality doesn't mean whatever you need it to mean to work with your argument. That women and men are equal "in the eyes of Allah" doesn't mean they have equality.

Here is the gist of your argument: the set of rights and responsibilities granted to men ankd women under Shariah is complementary and they work together.

That's cool. That doesn't mean they are "equal". Your argument would be better served if you just said that the roles of men and women in Islam are different from the Western views, and that works for Muslims. Rather than argue that they are "equal", knowing full well that this isn't true, and that the West should agree with this interpretation. You're fighting a losing battle.

Thank you. I started to write exactly this: an effective argument would go something along the lines of, "Women and men have different roles in Islam than in the West, and Islamic laws reflect this. Muslims appreciate these rules, which create the Muslim society that they want to live in."

By contrast, when you simply say, "Women are treated equally under Islam," you're deliberately using the word "equally" in a way that you know is understood very differently by your listeners. That's why the accusations of deception. That's what provoked the 20 pages detailing the actual laws, which you complain so much about.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But the difference is-- the moderator himself became exasperated with you. You predominantly argue for the sake of arguing; I argued to clarify misinterpretations you made about my religion. Yes, I got a few shots in but it's not easy to be patient with someone who has an agenda and is as combative as you.

The moderator doesn't get to call the outcome of a discussion. His emotions - exasperation or otherwise - count for nothing as far as the argument itself is concerned. He ain't the higher power, he isn't salaf so stop presenting his views like he's an uncriticizable companion or something.

Anonymous wrote:

You remind me of Humpty-Dumpty who said the word means whatever he wants it to mean. Equality doesn't mean whatever you need it to mean to work with your argument. That women and men are equal "in the eyes of Allah" doesn't mean they have equality.

Here is the gist of your argument: the set of rights and responsibilities granted to men ankd women under Shariah is complementary and they work together.

That's cool. That doesn't mean they are "equal". Your argument would be better served if you just said that the roles of men and women in Islam are different from the Western views, and that works for Muslims. Rather than argue that they are "equal", knowing full well that this isn't true, and that the West should agree with this interpretation. You're fighting a losing battle.

Anonymous wrote:But the difference is-- the moderator himself became exasperated with you. You predominantly argue for the sake of arguing; I argued to clarify misinterpretations you made about my religion. Yes, I got a few shots in but it's not easy to be patient with someone who has an agenda and is as combative as you.

Anonymous wrote:

Ok, I have ignored you for a long time but you keep repeating the same thing over and over and use "equality" at each corner. So, let me be clear. Equality doesn't mean X=Y. Equality means that in the face of Divine Law, both men and women are equal, i-e Allah judge all of His servants according to their deeds, not according to their gender. Men & Women practice the 5 pillars of Islam the same way. There isn't a special Quran for men and a special Quran for females. Men and women have the same religious and moral duties and responsibilities. They both face the same consequences or rewards of their deeds. Both genders are entitled to equality before the law and courts of law. Justice is genderless.

Now, I already know what you are going to come back with. But a man can have 4 wives, a man's testimony is worth more than a woman's , women inherit less, yadi yadi yada, We've debated those over 20 pages in different threads, no need to rehash them once more. If you didn't get it then, you won't it now. It should be added that from an Islamic perspective, the roles of men and women are complementary and cooperative rather than competitive. Their roles and responsibilities in life are different because of their physical and emotional differences. We have different demands, different responsibilities ect. Righteousness determines the value of humans in Allah's sight. It is not their gender or race, if you can't get that, well I can't help it. No need to have the same discussion with the same arguments 1000x, really!

Anonymous wrote:And you my dear, may be a stickler for facts but are not fit to interpret those facts, even anonymously on DCUM. The kind of errors you made here in either misinterpretation or intentional vilification of Islam fosters more bigotry towards Muslims. Maybe that was your agenda all along and you feign interest in this religion to advance hate.

The only mistake Muslima made was in using the word "equality" as she should have known it would be interpreted as the western idea of equality. Most Muslim women will tell you the justice they enjoy under Islam is interpreted by them as providing equality. Men have some greater rights but also much greater responsibilities.

The Sharia is an imperfect creation. The translations of the Quran are inadequate. Abuse does occur. Reformation is needed, not to change Islam, but to provide historical context. You use these flaws to support the idea that Islam is a barbaric religion that oppresses women and condones violence.

And for that you got spanked because it seemed pretty clear you had an agenda.

I was not the one who started threads vilifying Christianity. I have respect for Christianity. But your islamiphobia did prompt me to challenge your biased generalizations and also to start new threads.

Some yrs back, I was curious about Christianity. I was not interested in converting. I sought knowledge. After reading the Bible, I still sought further clarification. I did not get on DCUM or any blog to vilify Christianity, I called priests and clergymen. They were quite helpful. See the difference? You had an agenda and probably still do.

anonymous wrote:[On the other hand, most of us don't trust you to interpret Islam as far as we can throw you. Let's look at your multiple lies (I haven't used that word so far, but I will now) on merely secular issues:
- your attempts to spin conversations,
- your insistence that you are arguing with a single person,
- your nonsense about converts to Islam exceeding immigrants. Even though *your own numbers* showed that was a ridiculously false claim, you STILL insisted it was true for pages afterwards. (Unbelievable.)
- when you told us you lived in Falls Church and the ride-on to the metro took two hours.

It doesn't help that, besides being caught in lies, you also come off as having the maturity of a 12-year-old. Nor do you have the self restraint to drop issues you should be able to foresee you will lose.

Sorry, but there are several of us who will challenge statements like "Islam gives a good deal to female captives" or "Islam provides equal rights to women" or "converts exceed immigrants."