Anonymous
02/15/2013 10:12
Subject: Re:Bilingual Kids in Language Immersion ES Programs, Which Programs Have Many & Strive to Attract Th
^Thanks, Lamb parent. Interesting.
Anonymous
02/15/2013 10:04
Subject: Re:Bilingual Kids in Language Immersion ES Programs, Which Programs Have Many & Strive to Attract Th
Anonymous wrote: 7:22, will you tell us which school you're talking about? I hear what you're saying.
At our school, LAMB, parents believe that the Montessori method provides us with a better tool to integrate the target language-speaking kids (not all of whom are bilingual on arrival! apparantly this is the case at YY) and English-speaking kids than traditional programs have at their disposal. I think we do a great job with the lower elementary Montessori program, but am not as sold on the "Piscataway" 50/50 immersion approach for all upper elementary kids.
Some parents privately wonder if YY didn't do the right think in creating a separate English-intensive track, mostly serving low-SES kids. There is no way in hell that a 2nd track would fly at LAMB, although I suspect that it would help kids who struggle with English more than the serial "Response to Intervention" (RtI) remedial inputs the program provides. A 2nd track would also help retain high-SES families at the Piscataway stage. Many LAMB parents know about the considerable flak YY has taken for moving to create the 2nd track, which nobody wants here in NW.
This spring we will graduate our 3rd group of 5th graders, too many of whom won't have scored proficient in English on the DC-CAS. Some have talked about pushing for a DC-CAS for Spanish proficiency, where our performance would surely be stronger overall than in English, but we are not meeting with much interest from the testing powers-that-be.
When YY PPs fuss about non-Chinese speaking admins, we wonder what planet you're on! No question that our admins wouldn't speak Spanish, or do a lot of direct outreach to the Spanish-speaking community. If the board must look to cities around the country to find the right sorts (with Montessori experience), and have them schooled them in the ways of running DC Metro area elementary schools, that's what happens.
.
Anonymous
02/15/2013 09:48
Subject: Bilingual Kids in Language Immersion ES Programs, Which Programs Have Many & Strive to Attract Them?
There are only 112 students in all of DCPS preK-12 that are listed as coming from China (most recent data I could find was 2009-10) and 208 listed as having Chinese as their home language. Note that all dialects are lumped together for their totals.
Let's say for argument that ~1/4 of those kids listed would be age eligible. That would mean 52 kids in a school of +400 kids. It would be great, but it would still not be full two-way immersion. No matter what the level of outreach there simply are not enough native or home speakers of Chinese in the city. Compare this to 5,120 Spanish speakers.
This is what the home language survey looks like. It doesn't allow for dialect differentiation and it wouldn't be a question the school would be able to collect data on and then report to the public. http://dc.gov/DCPS/Files/downloads/In-the-Classroom/DCPS-Home-Language-Survey-for-SY2008-09.pdf
Let's say for argument that ~1/4 of those kids listed would be age eligible. That would mean 52 kids in a school of +400 kids. It would be great, but it would still not be full two-way immersion. No matter what the level of outreach there simply are not enough native or home speakers of Chinese in the city. Compare this to 5,120 Spanish speakers.
This is what the home language survey looks like. It doesn't allow for dialect differentiation and it wouldn't be a question the school would be able to collect data on and then report to the public. http://dc.gov/DCPS/Files/downloads/In-the-Classroom/DCPS-Home-Language-Survey-for-SY2008-09.pdf
Anonymous
02/15/2013 09:13
Subject: Bilingual Kids in Language Immersion ES Programs, Which Programs Have Many & Strive to Attract Them?
I am a YY parent and also want the school to serve all children. In fact, I wanted my child there and not in our fairly homogeneous IB school.
But as 00:11 notes, the school gives off a very weird vibe when the tour guides, administrators, parents at Open Houses are so defensive when asked basic questions about Chinese language and cultural issues surrounding the school that you don't see at Spanish immersion schools -- governed by the same laws. It is really frustrating and I think does not serve our school well.
But as 00:11 notes, the school gives off a very weird vibe when the tour guides, administrators, parents at Open Houses are so defensive when asked basic questions about Chinese language and cultural issues surrounding the school that you don't see at Spanish immersion schools -- governed by the same laws. It is really frustrating and I think does not serve our school well.
Anonymous
02/15/2013 07:58
Subject: Re:Bilingual Kids in Language Immersion ES Programs, Which Programs Have Many & Strive to Attract Th
Anonymous wrote:+100. Lord Hear our Prayer. Cantonese speaker, offered YY spot early on, didn't bite, stayed IB. Guessed that we wouldn't be able to speak freely, that they wouldn't get us, that we'd feel out of place. Lost sleep over concept of extended family strenuously objecting to our heading to school w/admins who don't speak Chinese. Though, seriously, if the principal had broken out in beautiful Mandarin to YeYe and MaMa (grandpa & grandma) I'm confident I could have won them over on the AA issue, employing shaming tactics. Whatever the case. Enjoyed big Chinese New Year party at MoCo heritage school with DC families as per usual.
---
DC at YY and we're happy although of course things can always be improved. I do wish that there were more native speakers but am a bit taken aback (well, not very as this has come up on other threads before) by the sense of entitlement that some of the Asian-Americans/dialect speaking posters. There is a Chinese outreach committee that is part of the Parent Teacher Association but honestly having read this thread (and all of the previous hugely long one), I think it would be almost impossible to satisfy these dialect speakers. They want to be courted, given preference, have an administrator who speaks that dialect... I think it would be impossible to satisfy all their demands. And it was truly disturbing to read some of the outright blatant racist remarks. The school will always be too diverse, too English-speaking, not enough Chinese-speaking admins for them... As I said on a previous thread, charters are started by interested individuals so the dialect speaking parents can band together to consider starting another one - YY is oversubscribed and there is definitely room for another.
Me too! Of course, I would love more native Chinese speakers of any dialect at Yu Ying, but not if it comes at the expense of the majority of children in this city. Yu Ying - like any other public school - exists first and foremost to be a school for the students of DC, not a specifically Chinese school. If someone wants a "Chinese school" as opposed to a "DC public Mandarin-immersion school" they should be looking at weekend classes or cultural organizations. The racism and sense of privilege and entitlement I've seen on this thread, from people who think the school and administration should kowtow to them is disturbing.
People all over the world learn English in their classrooms, without the presence of native English speakers. I'm sure they'd like them, but they're learning the language with or without them. I want Yu Ying to continue to treat lower-SES students, and students of color with no less or more preference than what is shown to students who come in with the benefit of language support at home.
Anonymous
02/15/2013 07:22
Subject: Re:Bilingual Kids in Language Immersion ES Programs, Which Programs Have Many & Strive to Attract Th
You consider 1:33's remark blatantly racist? He was explaining how his parents, immigrants of the older generation, think with a touch of humor. You can't take YY parents claiming they want more bilingual families seriously. There is a pattern - fully bilingual families who don't know much about the school learn more, maybe at an open house, wake up to the reality that they probably won't fit in, then head to MoCo heritage schools where they augment domestic immersion, looking toward MS and HS out of DC. Low-SES Chinese families don't stay that way for long, no matter where the kids attend school. With the low-SES Spanish speaking kids in this city, the outlook isn't nearly as rosy. Believe it or not, Spanish immersion charters have trouble convincing low-SES Latino families to send their kids because parents worry that they won't learn enough of either language in school. They gravitate to not-so-great non-immersion charters and IB schools.
Too often, the end result is that the kids emerge without a firm grounding in literacy in Spanish or English. These parents don't support a network of heritage language schools like the upwardly mobile Chinese. We have kids disappear because parents, worried that their Spanish wasn't up to scratch, send them back to Mexico to attend school from grandma's house. And we have parents pull kids out to send them to inferior IB schools and non-immersion charters out of concern that their English isn't good enough. No neat solution presents itself to how best to serve these kids. We grapple with the reality of too much attrition from both low-SES Spanish-speaking families, concerned about weak language acquisition across the board, and high-SES families concerned about overall quality (bound for Washington International School immersion, Spanish immersion in the burbs, or wherever). We also have a terrible time getting low-SES parents working long hours involved in parent organizations. It's a long way from rosy-ville here in the SI charter universe.
Too often, the end result is that the kids emerge without a firm grounding in literacy in Spanish or English. These parents don't support a network of heritage language schools like the upwardly mobile Chinese. We have kids disappear because parents, worried that their Spanish wasn't up to scratch, send them back to Mexico to attend school from grandma's house. And we have parents pull kids out to send them to inferior IB schools and non-immersion charters out of concern that their English isn't good enough. No neat solution presents itself to how best to serve these kids. We grapple with the reality of too much attrition from both low-SES Spanish-speaking families, concerned about weak language acquisition across the board, and high-SES families concerned about overall quality (bound for Washington International School immersion, Spanish immersion in the burbs, or wherever). We also have a terrible time getting low-SES parents working long hours involved in parent organizations. It's a long way from rosy-ville here in the SI charter universe.
Anonymous
02/15/2013 01:33
Subject: Re:Bilingual Kids in Language Immersion ES Programs, Which Programs Have Many & Strive to Attract Th
+100. Lord Hear our Prayer. Cantonese speaker, offered YY spot early on, didn't bite, stayed IB. Guessed that we wouldn't be able to speak freely, that they wouldn't get us, that we'd feel out of place. Lost sleep over concept of extended family strenuously objecting to our heading to school w/admins who don't speak Chinese. Though, seriously, if the principal had broken out in beautiful Mandarin to YeYe and MaMa (grandpa & grandma) I'm confident I could have won them over on the AA issue, employing shaming tactics. Whatever the case. Enjoyed big Chinese New Year party at MoCo heritage school with DC families as per usual.
---
DC at YY and we're happy although of course things can always be improved. I do wish that there were more native speakers but am a bit taken aback (well, not very as this has come up on other threads before) by the sense of entitlement that some of the Asian-Americans/dialect speaking posters. There is a Chinese outreach committee that is part of the Parent Teacher Association but honestly having read this thread (and all of the previous hugely long one), I think it would be almost impossible to satisfy these dialect speakers. They want to be courted, given preference, have an administrator who speaks that dialect... I think it would be impossible to satisfy all their demands. And it was truly disturbing to read some of the outright blatant racist remarks. The school will always be too diverse, too English-speaking, not enough Chinese-speaking admins for them... As I said on a previous thread, charters are started by interested individuals so the dialect speaking parents can band together to consider starting another one - YY is oversubscribed and there is definitely room for another.
---
DC at YY and we're happy although of course things can always be improved. I do wish that there were more native speakers but am a bit taken aback (well, not very as this has come up on other threads before) by the sense of entitlement that some of the Asian-Americans/dialect speaking posters. There is a Chinese outreach committee that is part of the Parent Teacher Association but honestly having read this thread (and all of the previous hugely long one), I think it would be almost impossible to satisfy these dialect speakers. They want to be courted, given preference, have an administrator who speaks that dialect... I think it would be impossible to satisfy all their demands. And it was truly disturbing to read some of the outright blatant racist remarks. The school will always be too diverse, too English-speaking, not enough Chinese-speaking admins for them... As I said on a previous thread, charters are started by interested individuals so the dialect speaking parents can band together to consider starting another one - YY is oversubscribed and there is definitely room for another.
Anonymous
02/15/2013 00:24
Subject: Bilingual Kids in Language Immersion ES Programs, Which Programs Have Many & Strive to Attract Them?
Anonymous wrote:
I did find the LAMB discussion interesting. Wonder how they are going to pull it off given it's a public lottery. They can't have two bins (one for English dominant and another for Spanish dominant) like they use to.
LAMB parent here to say that the way our lottery now works is no secret (hint, same as your lotteries).
The school is beefing up outreach and advertising to convince more Spanish-speakers to enter, and improving the curriciulum for kids who arrive speaking little or no English to boost retention. But we are resigned to having fewer Spanish-speaking Hispanic kids offered spots than in the past.
We can't fight City Hall as well as most of you seem to think!
Anonymous
02/15/2013 00:17
Subject: Re:Bilingual Kids in Language Immersion ES Programs, Which Programs Have Many & Strive to Attract Th
Anonymous wrote:I'm no chinese wanting preference, but at open houses for half a dozen immersion charters this winter, I noticed that YY's was the only one where those in charge seemed eager to duck questions about natie speakers. Presenters and guides got defensive when parents asked how many bilingual children are in the school, and wouldn't answer. Same reaction when a mom asked which dialects the bilingual children and chinese teachers speak (she got, the law doesn't permit us to collect this data, which sounded paranoid). At Lamb, Stokes, MV etc. admins and parent volunteers answered similar questions by cheerfully offering ballpark estimates, and a little info about the communities involved (most of our Hispanic kids hail from Adams Morgan...we do outreach at these community centers). Whatever the history behind the defensiveness, for somebody new to the scene, it was odd.
Yes, several in this discussion have noted this. I'm not a YY parent so I have no idea what this is about, but they should not be so shy with the statistics even f the numbers re low, since there is a drastic difference between the size of the native Spanish-speaking population in DC and the Chinese population. And, as has been said repeatedly, none of these schools can legally show preference for native speakers. We know a lot of people think YY could do much better at recruitment, representation at open houses, and more Chinese leadership. But since I'm not a parent there I don't know what efforts they make and I'm not going to judge.
Anonymous
02/15/2013 00:11
Subject: Re:Bilingual Kids in Language Immersion ES Programs, Which Programs Have Many & Strive to Attract Th
I'm no chinese wanting preference, but at open houses for half a dozen immersion charters this winter, I noticed that YY's was the only one where those in charge seemed eager to duck questions about natie speakers. Presenters and guides got defensive when parents asked how many bilingual children are in the school, and wouldn't answer. Same reaction when a mom asked which dialects the bilingual children and chinese teachers speak (she got, the law doesn't permit us to collect this data, which sounded paranoid). At Lamb, Stokes, MV etc. admins and parent volunteers answered similar questions by cheerfully offering ballpark estimates, and a little info about the communities involved (most of our Hispanic kids hail from Adams Morgan...we do outreach at these community centers). Whatever the history behind the defensiveness, for somebody new to the scene, it was odd.
Anonymous
02/14/2013 23:10
Subject: Bilingual Kids in Language Immersion ES Programs, Which Programs Have Many & Strive to Attract Them?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:How far has it really reached? As far as I can tell, OP's real agenda was to complain about YY. The title and reference to Tyler are disingenuous--read her posts and you'll see YY was the only immersion program she was considering. It was either that or her IB school. I haven't seen anything particularly substantive about other schools/programs.
Perhaps, but then OP checked out 10 pages ago and the conversation continues. I'd never heard of Lamb's lottery games before I got onto this thread. They certainly provide food for thought. I'm left wondering where it's going for them, and if any other charter immersion schools will follow suit to push the crusading envelope/break the law.
Doubtful she/he has checked out. The same ole complaint about how YY does not give preference to dialect/Cantonese speakers and how great it will be for YY (and even better for them!). Has been going on and on and...
I did find the LAMB discussion interesting. Wonder how they are going to pull it off given it's a public lottery. They can't have two bins (one for English dominant and another for Spanish dominant) like they use to.
Anonymous
02/14/2013 22:38
Subject: Re:Bilingual Kids in Language Immersion ES Programs, Which Programs Have Many & Strive to Attract Th
Same for me. If we end up at a bilingual charter, I will be much more aware of several issues I hadn't considered before, just from this thread.
Anonymous
02/14/2013 22:17
Subject: Bilingual Kids in Language Immersion ES Programs, Which Programs Have Many & Strive to Attract Them?
Anonymous wrote:How far has it really reached? As far as I can tell, OP's real agenda was to complain about YY. The title and reference to Tyler are disingenuous--read her posts and you'll see YY was the only immersion program she was considering. It was either that or her IB school. I haven't seen anything particularly substantive about other schools/programs.
Perhaps, but then OP checked out 10 pages ago and the conversation continues. I'd never heard of Lamb's lottery games before I got onto this thread. They certainly provide food for thought. I'm left wondering where it's going for them, and if any other charter immersion schools will follow suit to push the crusading envelope/break the law.
Anonymous
02/14/2013 18:38
Subject: Bilingual Kids in Language Immersion ES Programs, Which Programs Have Many & Strive to Attract Them?
Of course the teachers speak English- that is not the point. She doesn't understand when they are talking politely, plus some of them don't have very good English skills. I don't imagine she understands them when they are posting more candidly on FB talking amongst themselves either.
Anonymous
02/14/2013 18:26
Subject: Re:Bilingual Kids in Language Immersion ES Programs, Which Programs Have Many & Strive to Attract Th
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
Meaning, she knew no Mandarin when she started as the YY Principal, or meaning she did know some, and has learned more since coming on? I get that your assessment is she's not great on the tones, but is she conversational?
(From what I remember) At her previous school in Virginia she worked with the Mandarin program. I was under the impression that she spoke none or very little at that time, but has since picked up some basics. She is not conversational and could not present something like an info night. I speak very little Mandarin myself and can pick up that her tones are as flat as mine are. I'm not troubled by that in terms of how it looks to outsiders. What concerns me is that over half of her staff is Chinese and she can't understand them.
Yes she can--the Chinese staff speak English too.