Anonymous
Post 10/14/2012 13:47     Subject: Re:How's basis going so far?
Anonymous wrote:Actually FWIW in my experience here in Tucson (parent here) the strictness of comps has reduced due to increasing size of enrollment and need to retain bodies for financial reasons. So one teacher told me that a kid he failed on the comp AND the re-take in 8th grade nevetheless was promoted to 9th grade. This student just recently transferred out of BASIS voluntarily after receiving straight Fs for a few weeks in 9th grade. Remember, charters earn money by keeping students enrolled. Many hardworking kids still drop out along the way either due to burn out or because they could get much better grades with less work elsewhere. The original plan mentioned by the poster who was part of the first BASIS class (holding back kids who fail comps) is no longer, in my experience, the norm at the Tucson campus though the policy remains on the books. Some students do voluntarily choose to repeat grades. Some parents will have their child take 5th grade in regular public school and then start BASIS 5th grade to gain more time to prepare.


That's interesting, PP. I spoke with Olga Block about this once, and, if I recall correctly, her position was that the kids who get promoted by lowering the standards, e.g., failing a comp but being promoted anyway, ultimately fail out. The example you cite supports her position.

Why do you think they bother promoting kids who will ultimately fail out? Are they trying to keep them on the rolls until headcount day the following year? Here in DC, a charter is paid for the number of children enrolled on headcount day, which is around October 5th. It doesn't matter if the enrollment increases or decreases after that point. The payment is the same. Interestingly, headcount day has come an gone, but BASIS DC is still advertising available spots.

As for maintaining enrollment numbers, I understand that the enrollment model at BASIS is a pyramid. That is, due to the high attrition rate, there are more 5th graders than 6th graders, more 6th graders than 7th graders, etc. all the way up to 12th. The high attrition rate is already factored in, is it not? How strong is the financial incentive to maintain the class size really? If enrollment drops for than expected, can't they just increase the sizes of the 5th and 6th grades?

I would imagine that promoting the child who failed the comp was an act of compassion more than anything else. It's probably hard hold back a child whose been there for a few years and "only" failed one comp. I could see myself promoting such a child in hopes that he gets his act together over the summer and comes back with a more serious attitude.

Anonymous
Post 10/14/2012 12:23     Subject: Re:How's basis going so far?
Anonymous wrote:Actually FWIW in my experience here in Tucson (parent here) the strictness of comps has reduced due to increasing size of enrollment and need to retain bodies for financial reasons. So one teacher told me that a kid he failed on the comp AND the re-take in 8th grade nevetheless was promoted to 9th grade. This student just recently transferred out of BASIS voluntarily after receiving straight Fs for a few weeks in 9th grade. Remember, charters earn money by keeping students enrolled. Many hardworking kids still drop out along the way either due to burn out or because they could get much better grades with less work elsewhere. The original plan mentioned by the poster who was part of the first BASIS class (holding back kids who fail comps) is no longer, in my experience, the norm at the Tucson campus though the policy remains on the books. Some students do voluntarily choose to repeat grades. Some parents will have their child take 5th grade in regular public school and then start BASIS 5th grade to gain more time to prepare.


Hard to know what the facts or story are on being promoted if they did in fact not meet the requirements, not really appropriate to speculate without all the information.

And as for the grades, what's more important is outcomes, not grades. Kids being able to place into top schools and being prepared and able to perform there. Who cares if a kid gets straight A's on a watered-down curriculum, when it's college and career at stake.
Anonymous
Post 10/14/2012 11:36     Subject: How's basis going so far?
Seventh/eighth grades this year took all comers but next year's seventh grade will have had to pass comps. Wonder if Basis will try hard to reduce attrition of these first two grades as they are already small.
Anonymous
Post 10/14/2012 10:36     Subject: How's basis going so far?
Anonymous wrote:The gamut runs from Stanford and Harvard, taking about 7%, to to state schools like UCLA, Berkley, UVA etc., taking about a quarter instate and 10% out of state.


US News and World Report publishes a list of the 100 schools with the lowest acceptance rates. FYI, by the above metric, Basis' low end target schools include colleges as fine as Georgetown, Johns Hopkins and Rice...I haven't observed DCPS knocking itself out to steer top kids to such schools, let alone the "high end" schools on the list below (Ivies, MIT, Cal Tech, Stanford etc.)

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/lowest-acceptance-rate?src=stats
Anonymous
Post 10/14/2012 09:00     Subject: How's basis going so far?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote: Good insights, 18:02. Question: in a city where testing in to a charter is a non-starter, how could the Basis model be adjusted to keep the hard-workers even if they can't pass the comps? Is there a way without 'dumbing-down' the curriculum? Just brainstorming here for fun because I'm not Olga Block but what if they took the students GPA into account along with the comps, so to capture the hard workers that don't test all that well? Or is the point that even if they stayed they would not be happy. And what about those who test in for aptitude but DON'T work hard, and yet pass the comps? (I'm picturing that in a personal way if you get what I mean). Is the real problem the culture of rewarding academic entitlement attitudes to the detriment of acceptance of differences?


18:02, glad to try to answer these questions. I don't think that Basis would be amenable to adjusting its model to accomodate "average" or below-average hard-workers. The idea is to show them the door and find those with the right stuff to replace them. Basis wants students likely to be admitted to colleges taking no more than around one-quarter of applicants, maybe one-third tops. The gamut runs from Stanford and Harvard, taking about 7%, to to state schools like UCLA, Berkley, UVA etc., taking about a quarter instate and 10% out of state. Low-income kids get a small break in these college applicant pools, so they get a small break at Basis, but nobody gets a big break. If a Lower School kid fails pre-comps in the middle of the year, a red flag goes up.

As the poster above said, there is a well-reputed "exam" high school locally. I lost a fair number of classmates to the place. I thought about going there, but the commute would have been a hassle for my family.

I'm not sure how to answer the "gifted and talented" question because I'm unsure what gifted means. My talent (math) is conventional and, hence, what Basis was looking for. If I were art or music gifted, or simply socially gifted, I wouldn't have stayed. Make no mistake, I graduated without loving the place. Yes, there were some fine teachers, but the mentality was too mercenary, and the focus too narrow, for me. We have world class astronomy facilities here in Arizona and that field of inquiry was my thing outside school. I don't feel like Basis helped me to pursue my this interest, astronomy not being an AP subject. Basis was simply a means to an end in my teenage life, not a school I would donate to as an adult (Stanford, yes!). I would have liked to have attended a school where nobody who tried hard and played nicely was weeded out.

Anonymous
Post 10/14/2012 01:15     Subject: Re:How's basis going so far?
Anonymous wrote:

My other question is to the other Tucson parents (or others if this thread has branched out to other Basis parents in Arizona). Why do you keep your child in such a high pressure atmosphere? Are you planning to have your child stay only for middle school? Why is the Scottsdale branch of Basis (and a few others perhaps), where one can assume the parent has a choice of good public and private schools for their child, still thriving in Scottsdale? Good marketing? It almost seems like the choice has been made to go with what you know, even with the negatives, rather than take a chance on another school and have worse but different problems. Not necessarily a bad choice, if you kids can handle the structure and pace.


Tucson parent here. We have our kid in 5th grade. Lots of stress and in my opinion too much content too early. But major pro is absolutely awesome student body, culture of academic achievement (nerd pride), and above average to excellent teachers. Add to this a real lack of alternatives in Tucson for middle school and you have our decision to remain for the time being. There is a "gifted and talented" high school with a good reputation, though you have to test in. That is an option for 9th grade. Or private school.

Not sure what is going on in Scottsdale.
Anonymous
Post 10/13/2012 23:58     Subject: Re:How's basis going so far?
Basically, if you weren't the sort of kid who could test into elementary and middle school GT programs taking the top 5-10% of kids--we had some of those in the Tuscon area--you would probably end up so stressed at Basis by 7th grade algebra that you wouldn't return for 8th.

If the student was gifted, did they do well at Basis? It sounds like you were the gifted student who did well at Basis, and beyond, so no harm done? Would you recommend it for the gifted student? Still sounds very structured with such a rapid pace, so much so that a gifted student may also find it smothering, regardless of their ability to do math well and grasp concepts quickly. But, there is stress at many competitive high schools so how is Basis stress different?

My other question is to the other Tucson parents (or others if this thread has branched out to other Basis parents in Arizona). Why do you keep your child in such a high pressure atmosphere? Are you planning to have your child stay only for middle school? Why is the Scottsdale branch of Basis (and a few others perhaps), where one can assume the parent has a choice of good public and private schools for their child, still thriving in Scottsdale? Good marketing? It almost seems like the choice has been made to go with what you know, even with the negatives, rather than take a chance on another school and have worse but different problems. Not necessarily a bad choice, if you kids can handle the structure and pace.
Anonymous
Post 10/13/2012 22:32     Subject: Re:How's basis going so far?
Anonymous wrote:Actually FWIW in my experience here in Tucson (parent here) the strictness of comps has reduced due to increasing size of enrollment and need to retain bodies for financial reasons. So one teacher told me that a kid he failed on the comp AND the re-take in 8th grade nevetheless was promoted to 9th grade. This student just recently transferred out of BASIS voluntarily after receiving straight Fs for a few weeks in 9th grade. Remember, charters earn money by keeping students enrolled. Many hardworking kids still drop out along the way either due to burn out or because they could get much better grades with less work elsewhere. The original plan mentioned by the poster who was part of the first BASIS class (holding back kids who fail comps) is no longer, in my experience, the norm at the Tucson campus though the policy remains on the books. Some students do voluntarily choose to repeat grades. Some parents will have their child take 5th grade in regular public school and then start BASIS 5th grade to gain more time to prepare.


Poster 18:02 again, the graduate. I was in one of the first classes to graduate, when the policy on passing comps was still strict. That said, I don't remember many kids being felled by comps - most of those who left did so "of their own accord" between 6th and 9th grades. Basically, if you weren't the sort of kid who could test into elementary and middle school GT programs taking the top 5-10% of kids--we had some of those in the Tuscon area--you would probably end up so stressed at Basis by 7th grade algebra that you wouldn't return for 8th. It wasn't uncommon for kids to drop out of almost all their extra curriculars in a vain attempt to cope with the math. Made miserable enough, they would go.

It was true that some hardworking kids would drop out after burning out, or coming to the conclusion that they could coast elsewhere for better grades. But it was also the case that a good many kids simply couldn't learn as well, or as fast, as the program demanded, no matter how hard they tried or how much extra help they received (yes, Basis middle-class parents often hire tutors). What these kids were doing at Basis in the first place was never clear to me.

In the Tuscon area, there are some pretty good "normal" public schools, so having a kid leave Basis generally isn't the end of the world. With most of us coming from suburbs, we had already "moved to Fairfax" so to speak. It sounds like things could get messy in DC with family residence choices often riding on how a kid does at Basis. Sounds highly stressful for all concerned.













Anonymous
Post 10/13/2012 21:17     Subject: How's basis going so far?
I think that for lack of being able to screen candidates due to the obnoxious political climate, comps are the fall-back position.
Anonymous
Post 10/13/2012 19:08     Subject: Re:How's basis going so far?
Actually FWIW in my experience here in Tucson (parent here) the strictness of comps has reduced due to increasing size of enrollment and need to retain bodies for financial reasons. So one teacher told me that a kid he failed on the comp AND the re-take in 8th grade nevetheless was promoted to 9th grade. This student just recently transferred out of BASIS voluntarily after receiving straight Fs for a few weeks in 9th grade. Remember, charters earn money by keeping students enrolled. Many hardworking kids still drop out along the way either due to burn out or because they could get much better grades with less work elsewhere. The original plan mentioned by the poster who was part of the first BASIS class (holding back kids who fail comps) is no longer, in my experience, the norm at the Tucson campus though the policy remains on the books. Some students do voluntarily choose to repeat grades. Some parents will have their child take 5th grade in regular public school and then start BASIS 5th grade to gain more time to prepare.
Anonymous
Post 10/13/2012 15:57     Subject: How's basis going so far?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote: What you're going to see if you start in 5th grade is that many of the casualties in 7th to 9th grades will be hardworking kids. Why is this outcome better than finding kids with a good chance of doing well and keeping almost all of them? This is why I suggest that you talk to your pols. It might get you nowhere, but at least you could say you tried.


Good insights, 18:02. Question: in a city where testing in to a charter is a non-starter, how could the Basis model be adjusted to keep the hard-workers even if they can't pass the comps? Is there a way without 'dumbing-down' the curriculum? Just brainstorming here for fun because I'm not Olga Block but what if they took the students GPA into account along with the comps, so to capture the hard workers that don't test all that well? Or is the point that even if they stayed they would not be happy. And what about those who test in for aptitude but DON'T work hard, and yet pass the comps? (I'm picturing that in a personal way if you get what I mean). Is the real problem the culture of rewarding academic entitlement attitudes to the detriment of acceptance of differences?


Pp: what do you mean by "an academic entitlement attitude?"?
Anonymous
Post 10/13/2012 15:54     Subject: How's basis going so far?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Yes, need real alternatives in middle school choices. There's MS2 at Howard U, Latin, EL Haynes, Two Rivers, Paul PCS, Chavez Prep, all of them for college-bound kids.


Poster 18:02 again. I don't know about your public middle school choices but you must not have many good ones, or Basis DC wouldn't be attracting so many kids who probably aren't right for the set curriculum, and such defensive sounding parents.

If I were a DC parent starting out on this journey, or considering taking it, I might consider organizing fellow parents to educate politicians on the merits of selective admissions in the inner city environment. If the concept that "the politics here will never support what is fairest, kindest and works best" is allowed to rule the day from the outset, you're helping give empire building Basis a carte blanche to play cynical income-generating games in your city and others.

Tuscon isn't a big city. And yet kids who didn't come in with strong prep or aptitude tended to suffer cruelly at Basis. Those of us who were a good fit for the curriculum would place bets in the spring, with money riding on accurately predicting who would fail comps once, who would fail them twice, and who wouldn't be back in the fall. One August, I found that I'd won around 75 bucks from classmates for having predicted who would bite the dust over the summer with some accuracy. Were we kids to blame for such meaness when the culling encouraged survivors to look down our noses at those who learned differently? My local middle school wasn't great on math instruction, but it was a nurturing place and, looking back, I might have been fine there.

In perusing earlier posts, I noticed that many here appear to have come to the conclusion that all it takes to succeed at a Basis branch is discipline and hard work. If you leave, it's your own fault. Only half true. Basis is essentially offering a math gifted curriculum without screening for math giftedness, or strong foundational preparation for a lot of the kids. If Basis were starting in the early or mid elementary grades with screening, OK. What you're going to see if you start in 5th grade is that many of the casualties in 7th to 9th grades will be hardworking kids. Why is this outcome better than finding kids with a good chance of doing well and keeping almost all of them? This is why I suggest that you talk to your pols. It might get you nowhere, but at least you could say you tried.


You are right, PP. There are few viable MS options in DC. Many families have enrolled at BASIS DC this year who would probably have chosen a different model if it were available. Also, I think many parents are being unrealistic about their DC's capabilities and about the amount of support that they will have to provide at home to ensure success. Finally, I suspect that some families are in denial about the lack of social promotion. I don't think they realize that BASIS is prepared to hold back a large percentage of the sixth graders. I fear the the attrition rate will be higher than the norm for a BASIS school during the first few years.

Would you be willing to elaborate on your experiences with BASIS comps? I assume that class performance is highly correlated comp performance. That is, A students always pass the comp, B students usually pass the comp, C pass the comp if they study, D students might pass with a lot of work, etc.

Was that your experience at BASIS? Is the comp easy for the student who is doing well in the class and impossible for the student who is doing poorly? Did you ever know of an A student who failed the comp? How about a D or F student who passed?

Our DC just started the 6th grade and has thus far received mostly 90s with a few 80s. When DC expresses anxiety about comps, I usually provided reassurance by claiming that comps will not be hard with those grades. Am I wrong?

By the way, have you considered starting another thread with the title "I graduated from BASIS Tucson, ask me anything?"?

Anonymous
Post 10/13/2012 12:47     Subject: How's basis going so far?
Anonymous wrote: What you're going to see if you start in 5th grade is that many of the casualties in 7th to 9th grades will be hardworking kids. Why is this outcome better than finding kids with a good chance of doing well and keeping almost all of them? This is why I suggest that you talk to your pols. It might get you nowhere, but at least you could say you tried.


Good insights, 18:02. Question: in a city where testing in to a charter is a non-starter, how could the Basis model be adjusted to keep the hard-workers even if they can't pass the comps? Is there a way without 'dumbing-down' the curriculum? Just brainstorming here for fun because I'm not Olga Block but what if they took the students GPA into account along with the comps, so to capture the hard workers that don't test all that well? Or is the point that even if they stayed they would not be happy. And what about those who test in for aptitude but DON'T work hard, and yet pass the comps? (I'm picturing that in a personal way if you get what I mean). Is the real problem the culture of rewarding academic entitlement attitudes to the detriment of acceptance of differences?
Anonymous
Post 10/13/2012 08:47     Subject: How's basis going so far?
Charter schools are a money juggernaut but not from the public funding. It's all the private donations with very direct interests. Use your brains people! You are being used as pawns in a bigger game. If your child is educated, it'a great side benefit and it's at least something good to come out of this.

Anonymous wrote:Wow, these last couple of pages suddenly turned into yet another major disinformation campaign. It's not Chinese-style "drill and kill" though there is a big focus on getting the fundamentals down. As PP pointed out, you can't "explore" and "be creative" in any productive sense without first having good core fundamental knowledge.

It's also amusing to see BASIS portrayed as a.) "public private" whatever the hell that's supposed to mean *chuckle* and b.) some kind of cash cow. Remember, they only get HALF as much funding per student as compared to DCPS, so if you consider charters to be such an outrageous waste of taxpayer money, then that makes DCPS DOUBLY as much an outrageous waste of taxpayer money.
Anonymous
Post 10/13/2012 08:17     Subject: How's basis going so far?
5:43 = If you peruse these threads, you will quickly see that there are many here who agree with screening, there is also a very strong and vocal contingent who objects strongly to it, immediately referring to it as racist, apartheid and so on - regardless of the actualities of it. It's a very steep uphill battle to fight.